RV-15 Spin Testing

[Jetmart]

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Van's RV-15 prototype, with tufts added for spin testing. Production wings are installed, and the tail feathers are the production versions as well.
EAA chapter visit. Got to watch some of the videos of spin testing...plane is apparently doing very well. You can see the video on the TV in the background of the second picture....the plane has multiple camera mounts, on the interior and the exterior. A spin recovery parachute is installed for testing, but as of now, it looks like it won't be needed.
Two impressions: First, the plane has TREMENDOUSLY large flaps Second, the baggage area behind the seats is huge. Obviously, the spin testing is going to establish the utility of the space.
I offered to trade them, even-up, for my Fly Baby. No luck....

 

[flymore]

Looks like a longer nose? Either way, the more I look at this plane the more I like it. Can't wait to see it at OSH.

 

[rocketman1988]

They said they were going to lengthen the nose to accommodate lighter engines like the io360

 

[Roadjunkie1]

From FB.

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Van's RV-15 prototype, with tufts added for spin testing. Production wings are installed, and the tail feathers are the production versions as well.
EAA chapter visit. Got to watch some of the videos of spin testing...plane is apparently doing very well. You can see the video on the TV in the background of the second picture....the plane has multiple camera mounts, on the interior and the exterior. A spin recovery parachute is installed for testing, but as of now, it looks like it won't be needed.
Two impressions: First, the plane has TREMENDOUSLY large flaps Second, the baggage area behind the seats is huge. Obviously, the spin testing is going to establish the utility of the space.
I offered to trade them, even-up, for my Fly Baby. No luck....

View attachment 117692
View attachment 117691

Pictures make me itch............

Spirit of St. Louis-sized ailerons.........and 737 sized flaps!!

I'm amazed at the time and careful research they have spent getting everything JUST RIGHT making this one of the best aircraft in its class available! Move on over, competition! Including some production aircraft!! Did I say C-180? Maaaaaaybe........

 

[Utah-Jay]

Pictures make me itch............

Spirit of St. Louis-sized ailerons.........and 737 sized flaps!!

I noticed the short Ailerons, but they look like they have a deep cord. Certainly caught my eye as I am a slow flight guy who goes into short strips

 

[Mel]

I noticed the short flaps, but they look like they have a deep cord. Certainly caught my eye as I am a slow flight guy who goes into short strips

Short Flaps? You must be seeing a different picture than me!

 

[N8DAV8R]

Along with the mention of the possibly longer nose, I notice they also have some mock-up gear fairings on it now too.

 

[Utah-Jay]

Short Flaps? You must be seeing a different picture than me!

Meant ailerons, I edited the post… thanks for the catch

 

[Utah-Jay]

Along with the mention of the possibly longer nose, I notice they also have some mock-up gear fairings on it now too.

Reading your post and looking back at the photo, I see they rounded the leading edge of the gear legs too as well as a tapered fairing on the trailing edge of the gear. Aerodynamics baby!

 

[simpsontl48]

This will be a great airplane. Should help for Vans company's future.

 

[Alphalpha]

Looks like the flaps extend inboard past the end of the wing. The $64,000 dollar question still seems to be what makes them go up and down?

 

[chriscrewdson]

Looks like the flaps extend inboard past the end of the wing. The $64,000 dollar question still seems to be what makes them go up and down?

I got a good look at this and there are a pair of push-pull cables out each side that must go to a bellcrank that pushes and pulls the rod to the flaps.

 

[flymore]

I got a good look at this and there are a pair of push-pull cables out each side that must go to a bellcrank that pushes and pulls the rod to the flaps.

Someone smarter than me(not hard to find) is going to have to show me why all this is installed after the wings are closed up.

 

[N8DAV8R]

Someone smarter than me(not hard to find) is going to have to show me why all this is installed after the wings are closed up.

I have posted my bell crank theory a couple times now so will spare details on that.

To your point, there is a pretty big access hole in the lower skin near the inboard mixer box. There are also access holes in the cove skin on each side of the middle track in the vicinity of the pushrod and pulley bracket.

I think I have a pretty good guess at how it works from the bracket to the flap, you can see cable paths. What's harder to figure out is how the cables would run from the root to the pulley. The cove ribs don't really have provisions for the cable to pass through other than the large center hole but that alignment is awkward. If that center hole accommodates the cables I suppose they could be running in a sleeve out to that point, similar to the rudder cables in the mid-section of the RV-12.

 

[Walt]

Am I the only that finds it interesting that they have sold major assemblies but are still doing flight testing?

 

[N8DAV8R]

Am I the only that finds it interesting that they have sold major assemblies but are still doing flight testing?

It's interesting. I won't assume whether you mean to attach either a positive or negative value judgement with that. Maybe neither.

I think some of us who are really geeking out on the development of the RV-15 understand it and see it as a benefit. Van's explained the engineering prototype concept from the beginning. They are making iterative improvements as they work through each major assembly with wings and tail being the first to be finalized. There is a case to be made that this is a step beyond most other kits on the market. It's the opposite of rushing 'good enough' out the door; selling kits as soon as you have something flying.

The counter argument and hazards to early adopters is also fair. None of this testing should be news to anybody, and it's funny to think you would be the only one with concern. There's two sides to the coin.

 

[Roadjunkie1]

I think one of the many genius features of this design are the vortex generators incorporated into the structure of the flap itself. I mean WOW! I haven't even mentioned the replaceable leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer! Did I mention well thought out design features and......genius? And TESTED! Some more. And then......some more......!

 

[Ironflight]

Am I the only that finds it interesting that they have sold major assemblies but are still doing flight testing?

Boeing is flight testing 737’s, 777’s, and 787’s every day, and they have been flying for years……

 

[plehrke]

Am I the only that finds it interesting that they have sold major assemblies but are still doing flight testing?

I would guess it is to get final data on the final "as-built" configuration.

 

[Walt]

Boeing is flight testing 737’s, 777’s, and 787’s every day, and they have been flying for years……

Not sure if that is supposed to be reassuring as Boeing has had huge problems lately.

I believe most of their flight testing on older airframes has to do with systems/engine changes and upgrades not basic flying qualities.
(the Max comes to mind, engineering shortcuts almost killed the Co.)

 

[Walt]

I would guess it is to get final data on the final "as-built" configuration.

You mean like Van's having to supply new RV9 rudders to RV7 builders after spin testing data??

 

[Utah-Jay]

I am loving the whole thing, I believe they are trying to tweak every possible thing out of it! The only thing from a selfish standpoint is I wish they had not cut down on the wing length. Wing area is lift. I believe I am in the minority here, but I like more lift for slower stall speeds

 

[N10KE]

I think one of the many genius features of this design are the vortex generators incorporated into the structure of the flap itself.

Yep. In 1964 they probably were “genius”.

https://calhoun.nps.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/0efcc21a-ba93-457a-aff7-341a840e214a/content

 

[N8DAV8R]

Not sure if that is supposed to be reassuring as Boeing has had huge problems lately.

I believe most of their flight testing on older airframes has to do with systems/engine changes and upgrades not basic flying qualities.
(the Max comes to mind, engineering shortcuts almost killed the Co.)

I don't think we can be certain that the purpose of the spin testing is to record basic flying qualities. There could be a variety of reasons to do spins at various points in a test program. Please share details if you know more than the rest of us.

 

[Dan 57]

many genius features of this design are the vortex generators

@Roadjunkie1, oh well, nothing... answered above by Krea.
The genius feature is being able to sell a project to the masses, before it being finalised. Cash consolidation me thinks... good idea, me thinks no... smells of yet another chapter, maybe... vaporware, partly yes.

One thing easily places the -15 on top of other models: development (above all engineering) costs. A breakeven, let alone a positive yield, will need far higher sales than what has been shown by now. Fear not, all other models will shell for the -15 too.

Still, a superb design of which I'd love to own an example (the biggest attraction for me, no tent set-up, greaser landing (dream on...) done, roll out the sleeping bag, get a couple of refreshments, and just crash in. How sweet

 

[N8DAV8R]

One thing easily places the -15 on top of other models: development (above all engineering) costs. A breakeven, let alone a positive yield, will need far higher sales than what has been shown by now. Fear not, all other models will shell for the -15 too.

This is awesome, another person with apparent access to facts that the rest of us don't have. Tell us what you know about engineering and development costs, Van's profit margin, etc.

 

[Roadjunkie1]

Yep. In 1964 they probably were “genius”.

https://calhoun.nps.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/0efcc21a-ba93-457a-aff7-341a840e214a/content

HAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahaha.........................cute. But not my point. GREAT article on flap VGs by the way, but those were STUCK ON after construction of the flap itself. The GENIUS of this design is that they are PART OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE FLAP ITSELF. But I suppose we all have our opinion of what constitutes genius and what might not. I fly a -4. I consider that a 'genius' design but, perhaps, not compared to the Twin Otter.

 

[N10KE]

HAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahaha.........................cute. But not my point. GREAT article on flap VGs by the way, but those were STUCK ON after construction of the flap itself. The GENIUS of this design is that they are PART OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE FLAP ITSELF.

You got me there. The VG’s were probably stuck on after construction for testing purposes. Most advances were from wind tunnel and flight tests in 1964. CFD codes weren’t nearly so advanced and I’m not sure CNC punch presses even existed. Today, an aero engineer can design a heck of lot from their desktop.

But yes, genius.

 

[planenutz]

I offered to trade them, even-up, for my Fly Baby. No luck....

Even with cash your way??? Damn, they're tight!

 

[Dan 57]

This is awesome, another person with apparent access to facts that the rest of us don't have. Tell us what you know about engineering and development costs, Van's profit margin, etc.

shall that be with thinly sliced Pacific salmon on toasts and French champagne Sir?

 

[justa6ereh]

To Walt’s point… I’ve never seen an aircraft marketed and sold in such fashion.

I also notice that the minute a person… maybe a highly qualified person who makes their living in the business… makes any adverse potential comment, the flock descends.

While so clever… to idly sit pretending that unless a person discloses sources, and publishes as fact… things they wish to express on a forum… for opinions… then folks jump on that too.

I’ve come to the point where I don’t really care anymore what people think…. There are two decided groups where,
1: Everything Vans Does is Correct- because

And
2: rational thoughts and questions should be abolished at all costs because..( see 1)

Thus…. Walt is bad an evil because he sees what others see and has the cajones to share his opinion, which is immediately not appreciated.

I see nothing spectacular in the 15 at all… in my view, it’s un-interesting. I respect everyone else’s opinion truly, but if we can’t have this space to share our opinions …and all it becomes is an empty echo chamber of:

Which lights should I use…?
Garmin or Dynon?
My engine is running rough
Which prop is best?
What tires last longest?
How do I use a Cleco?


Sorry… the space is losing me.

I take my hat off to Walt for having an opinion and sharing it. If you and I disagree on things, I trust we can do so as gentleman and intact of our opinions and experiences personally.

The rest is all crap…and yet another reason to avoid group think.

I’ll stick with rational. A=A… and if it don’t smell right.. it’s most likely not. Thank God for Occam.

 

[flymore]

I like that they are actively testing. The plane will be fine. As the pilot, statistically I am still(by far) the biggest threat to flight safety.

 

[N10KE]

To Walt’s point… I’ve never seen an aircraft marketed and sold in such fashion.

I also notice that the minute a person… maybe a highly qualified person who makes their living in the business… makes any adverse potential comment, the flock descends.

While so clever… to idly sit pretending that unless a person discloses sources, and publishes as fact… things they wish to express on a forum… for opinions… then folks jump on that too.

I’ve come to the point where I don’t really care anymore what people think…. There are two decided groups where,
1: Everything Vans Does is Correct- because

And
2: rational thoughts and questions should be abolished at all costs because..( see 1)

Thus…. Walt is bad an evil because he sees what others see and has the cajones to share his opinion, which is immediately not appreciated.

I see nothing spectacular in the 15 at all… in my view, it’s un-interesting. I respect everyone else’s opinion truly, but if we can’t have this space to share our opinions …and all it becomes is an empty echo chamber of:

Which lights should I use…?
Garmin or Dynon?
My engine is running rough
Which prop is best?
What tires last longest?
How do I use a Cleco?


Sorry… the space is losing me.

I take my hat off to Walt for having an opinion and sharing it. If you and I disagree on things, I trust we can do so as gentleman and intact of our opinions and experiences personally.

The rest is all crap…and yet another reason to avoid group think.

I’ll stick with rational. A=A… and if it don’t smell right.. it’s most likely not. Thank God for Occam.

Hope your comment isn’t deleted. It probably will (and mine as well) because (1) and (2) above.

 

[N8DAV8R]

To Walt’s point… I’ve never seen an aircraft marketed and sold in such fashion.

Me neither. The closest recent analogy I can think of is the Sonex High Wing. They took deposits on kits before they even had a flying prototype. The converted those to full orders right after the first flight. For the hand wringers, that would be even more concerning.

Van's took the RV-15 to Oshkosh and still spent another couple years tweaking things because they wanted to get certain things just right.

I’ve come to the point where I don’t really care anymore what people think….

Your whole post is a rant illustrating how much you care what other people think.

There are two decided groups where,
1: Everything Vans Does is Correct- because

Michael Via, the CEO of Van's, called me personally because some of my posts had been shared with him and he was unhappy with the criticism.

Thus…. Walt is bad an evil because he sees what others see and has the cajones to share his opinion, which is immediately not appreciated.

Ohhhh the drama!

Nobody called Walt evil. He made a comment, people responded. It's called conversation.

Some people are comfortable exchanging ideas, obviously others are triggered by someone with a different view.

If you and I disagree on things, I trust we can do so as gentleman and intact of our opinions and experiences personally.

Obviously not, because your post is just hysterics pointed at people who see it differently and responded to Walt. Line after line, nothing actually relevant to the subject at hand, the RV-15, spin testing, etc.

 

[DeltaRomeo]

Reminder regarding civility and following the posting rules.

(holding red pen in my hand currently…..yay!!!!)

 

[justa6ereh]

Me neither. The closest recent analogy I can think of is the Sonex High Wing. They took deposits on kits before they even had a flying prototype. The converted those to full orders right after the first flight. For the hand wringers, that would be even more concerning.

Van's took the RV-15 to Oshkosh and still spent another couple years tweaking things because they wanted to get certain things just right.



Your whole post is a rant illustrating how much you care what other people think.



Michael Via, the CEO of Van's, called me personally because some of my posts had been shared with him and he was unhappy with the criticism.



Ohhhh the drama!

Nobody called Walt evil. He made a comment, people responded. It's called conversation.

Some people are comfortable exchanging ideas, obviously others are triggered by someone with a different view.



Obviously not, because your post is just hysterics pointed at people who see it differently and responded to Walt. Line after line, nothing actually relevant to the subject at hand, the RV-15, spin testing, etc.

With all due respect… I don’t think any comment I made is hysteria in any fashion.

It is simply becoming the way this forum operates. Say something some smart aleck doesn’t like… and it’s either deleted or attacked, rather that a simple… Hey…sorry we disagree, but no matter.

I have read lots of Walt’s post and they are always informational and insightful.

I am not buying or building a 15, as it’s a bush plane theoretically and I have no use for one. But…the optics on it are unusual to an industry person. Or more specifically they’re not unusual these days.

I responded because I found your smart reply insinuating that he needed to cough up facts… in order to share his opinion… stupid.

I have no issues with your opinion whatsoever… I just understand they are only your opinion.

And if my post is deleted… big deal.

 

[Roadjunkie1]

Letseehere........What was this thread about? Oh, yeah: See post #1..

 

[flymore]

Letseehere........What was this thread about? Oh, yeah: See post #1..

Priming….

 

[justa6ereh]

Priming….

Awesome segue Road!!! Gotta keep a sense of humor!!!

 

[N8DAV8R]

It is simply becoming the way this forum operates. Say something some smart aleck doesn’t like… and it’s either deleted or attacked, rather that a simple…

You're the only one in this thread doing that. Contributing absolutely nothing. Just ranting about other people having opinions while explicitly stating you have no actual interest in the RV-15.

There is a reason I made the comment and asked if Walt knew more than the rest of us about the flight testing. First, he actually might just know something since as you point out he's a credible industry person. The other reason is that development of the RV-15 involves a process that is unfamiliar to almost all us, at least the usual few that are posting. The documentation of ASTM standards as to controllability and performance.

The ASTM process is going to introduce a flight test regime that is different from legacy experimental aircraft development. I think the timing of some of this testing is part of that. We aren't necessarily seeing test work done that is analogous to historical EABs, there is a good chance it's part something more rigorous in support of the SLSA/ELSA documentation.

 

[justa6ereh]

Watching with interest how far the new process varies from how previous aircraft were developed and marketed and kits sold, does interest me, even though the plane doesn’t. Spin testing however is very interesting.

I appreciate the little bit further explanation of your response, and the tough part of forum writing is the multiple ways a particular post might be interpreted and my interpretation of yours was challenging Walt, and even with the president of Vans calling you personally, who knows what others might know.

That’s really it and all for me. Opinions should be welcome here… even ones we don’t always agree with.

Have a good weekend.

 

[RV8JD]

From FB.

Facebook

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Van's RV-15 prototype, with tufts added for spin testing. Production wings are installed, and the tail feathers are the production versions as well.
EAA chapter visit. Got to watch some of the videos of spin testing...plane is apparently doing very well. You can see the video on the TV in the background of the second picture....the plane has multiple camera mounts, on the interior and the exterior. A spin recovery parachute is installed for testing, but as of now, it looks like it won't be needed.
Two impressions: First, the plane has TREMENDOUSLY large flaps Second, the baggage area behind the seats is huge. Obviously, the spin testing is going to establish the utility of the space.
I offered to trade them, even-up, for my Fly Baby. No luck....

View attachment 117692
View attachment 117691

The OP should have credited Ron Wanttaja for the FB post and pics.

 

[Walt]

There is a reason I made the comment and asked if Walt knew more than the rest of us about the flight testing. First, he actually might just know something since as you point out he's a credible industry person. The other reason is that development of the RV-15 involves a process that is unfamiliar to almost all us, at least the usual few that are posting. The documentation of ASTM standards as to controllability and performance.

I don't think the folks at Van's see me as anything more than loudmouth idiot, maybe not even that good, so rest assured no insider info here.
The good news is I gave up a long time ago trying to get people to like me, and I don't really care if they do or don't.
I like my dogs and my wife, and even she gets on my nerves sometimes.

 

[Jerry Fischer]

Short Flaps? You must be seeing a different picture than me!

I think he might have meant ailerons

 

[Utah-Jay]

No Mod here, but lets get back to the -15 discussion.

 

[RV8JD]

You mean like Van's having to supply new RV9 rudders to RV7 builders after spin testing data??

To be fair, Van’s offered RV-9 rudders to early RV-7 builders to improve the spin characteristics of the RV-7, but there was no recall or suggestion that the original rudders had to be replaced with RV-9 rudders. The RV-7 kits after 5/20/2002 included the RV-9 rudder.

https://www.vansaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2002/06/sb02-6-1.pdf

"Van’s Aircraft is offering a no cost replacement rudder kit to all previous RV-7/7A Empennage kit purchasers.​

Any owner of an RV-7 kit, may request a new enlarged rudder."​

​

and ...​

​

"CONCLUSION:​

Flown within the recommended limitations of Section 15 of the Construction Manual, either the original or the enlarged RV-7 rudder will provide adequate authority for spin recovery.​

​

The substitution of an RV-9 rudder on an RV-7 improved spin recovery. With the larger rudder, the RV-7 will have​

better spin recovery from whatever flight condition the pilot may encounter."​

 

[Jerry Fischer]

I don't think the folks at Van's see me as anything more than loudmouth idiot, maybe not even that good, so rest assured no insider info here.
The good news is I gave up a long time ago trying to get people to like me, and I don't really care if they do or don't.
I like my dogs and my wife, and even she gets on my nerves sometimes.

Walt, I, along with many on this forum certainly respect your input, experience, and expertise when it comes to defining an issue with respect to aviatin'...just sayin. I would categorize you, Dan Horton, Mel Asberry, Paul Dye, Jay Pratt, Ernie Butcher, James Clark, and others in contributing meaningful information to this group...that is all, carry on..

 

[rvbuilder2002]

To Walt’s point… I’ve never seen an aircraft marketed and sold in such fashion.

Well……. With 35+ years of attending the OSH / Airventure fly-in, I couldn’t come close to correctly, counting the number of airplane kit companies that have showed up with a mock up and were accepting deposits.
Mock up, meaning they hadn’t even yet flown what they were accepting deposit money for
The amazing thing is a lot of people would give them money.
Sure, it was always with the clarifier that it was a fully refundable deposit….
The majority of the time everyone loses their money when the company just suddenly closes their doors and disappears.

 

[RNB]

In the -pharmaceutical research world, stage 4 drug trials start when the drug is released to the public. Many drugs then get pulled from the market.

I am glad there are such testers building 15s now. I wouldn’t have it.

Otherwise, I hope I fit in one.

 

[rvbuilder2002]

To be fair, Van’s offered RV-9 rudders to early RV-7 builders to improve the spin characteristics of the RV-7, but there was no recall or suggestion that the original rudders had to be replaced with RV-9 rudders. The RV-7 kits after 5/20/2002 included the RV-9

An additional factory related to this that a lot of people don’t know, is that the original factory demonstrator still has the original runner installed.
It was never changed because the company use of the airplane would never put it in a situation that recovery from a highly developed spin would be necessary.