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What is your RV worth?

9Abuilder

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View attachment RV-9A Pricing Tables (1).pdf
See Pricing Table
First off, thank you to everyone who took the time to respond to this thread starter. As noted in my original post, it was only an idea - a place to start everyone thinking and coming up with good ideas on pricing your aircraft for the market. When I put my 9A on the market, there were only seven other 9A’s listed on two separate sites. This same RV model had a price range between $85K and $200K. Some of those same 9A’s were selling for less than the price spread! If you were looking for a used pick-up, you’d probably look at Kelly Blue Book to see what it sells for in your area. If you were looking to buy a house in a certain neighborhood, you’d look at the real estate sites for comparables. Why does the experimental aircraft market need to be such a **** shoot? My table actually had several more ratings columns than the table you saw her. But, I wanted to see ideas from others that could make this a viable concept. At last count, after only a couple of days, there were over 2400 views to the question I posed. There must be a real need for this kind of ithread with that kind of metric. To the few nay-sayers who said “it won’t work”, “you didn’t include this”, or “it’s just to difficult”, I hope you will post a comment here and explain to our RV community just how your negative comments helped them.

A couple of months back, I decided to sell my 9A. Not knowing how to price it out, I looked at a couple of "For Sale" sites and gave it my best guess. I wasn't even close in my pricing estimate and the lack of responses was the telling tale. So, I decided to come up with a list of items common to RV's and give them a numerical rating based on age, hours, appearance, documentation, and type. When I had finished producing the ratings table, it showed me my selling price was too high.
This ratings table is ONLY a guide. It is a place to start. It is just my idea of how to fairly come up with a price for your RV. There could be as many alternate ideas as there are builders. Overhauled 2000 hr. engine w/ new zero hours vs a brand new zero time engine. Ten-year old, three-color paint job vs three-year old, one color paint job. Interested to see how you would make changes and rate your aircraft.
 
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You can attach a PDF just like an image, edit your post and click the little paperclip icon.

Also, can you link one of your listings so we can check it out?
 
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A couple of months back, I decided to sell my 9A. Not knowing how to price it out, I looked at a couple of "For Sale" sites and gave it my best guess. I wasn't even close in my pricing estimate and the lack of responses was the telling tale. So, I decided to come up with a list of items common to RV's and give them a numerical rating based on age, hours, appearance, documentation, and type. When I had finished producing the ratings table, it showed me my selling price was too high.
This ratings table is ONLY a guide. It is a place to start. It is just my idea of how to fairly come up with a price for your RV. There could be as many alternate ideas as there are builders. I have it in a PDF format, but not sure how to add it to my post. If anyone knows how, please let me know. I really do not wish to email a copy to every individual that asks for one.
Thanks for your help.

Pic of how to attach images/pdf's using the paperclip. Once uploaded click the paperclip icon again to chose and insert uploaded file.

1.2.3 IMAGE PAPERCLIP.JPG
 
I have a bad habit of thinking that things I own are worth more than they actually are especially if it is something I built, upgraded, or restored.

I find it helpful to ask myself if I was to buy this today what would I be willing to pay and feel I got a good deal? This is usually close to what someone else will pay.
 
I really like this formula. It means my 130 hour 1.5 year old RV6, O-360, fixed pitch GA prop, VFR glass panel with a nice paint job is worth $155K - no negotiation, write a check. Any one interested?
 
I really like this formula. It means my 130 hour 1.5 year old RV6, O-360, fixed pitch GA prop, VFR glass panel with a nice paint job is worth $155K - no negotiation, write a check. Any one interested?

Take your 105k RV6, find a buyer, sign a contract with 40k deposit. File bankruptcy to get court to allow to upcharge of 32% or walk away without deposit or pay the 155k price.
There you have your 155k RV6
 
The used airplane market is mirroring the car market right now. Inventory is building. Sales are slowing. You Will actually have to negotiate lower prices To make a sale.
 
View attachment 52826

A couple of months back, I decided to sell my 9A. Not knowing how to price it out, I looked at a couple of "For Sale" sites and gave it my best guess. I wasn't even close in my pricing estimate and the lack of responses was the telling tale. So, I decided to come up with a list of items common to RV's and give them a numerical rating based on age, hours, appearance, documentation, and type. When I had finished producing the ratings table, it showed me my selling price was too high..

Just a passing comment knowing it is difficult, if not impossible, to come up with any kind of formula to evaluate a decision that is partially subjective and includes a wide variety of variables. That said:
Big part of my evaluation of buying an airplane is how well does it fly. Just like the judging at OSH, your rating system does not take into account weight and other performance related attributes.
 
Question: Is value really a complete mystery since we don't (as far as I know) have any substantive data on actual selling prices? I don't know of a single place I can go to find the actual selling price on an airplane.

Am I missing something?
 
Nice idea, but I see a lot of flaws in the formula.

aka interior has the same value as engine hours? I complete new interior is $5k and new engine, 10x that as just one example.
 
There's a million exceptions to every category.

Engine: Lyclone or Lycoming? O-320 or IO390?
Prop: Catto or Senenich? Hartzell or Whirlwind?
Paint: Is it a brand new matterhorn white with two stripes or a 5 year old Evoke show winner thats never spent a night outside?

I applaud the effort, It was obviously a ton of work to figure out a format that works in a baseline sense and it will certainly get the conversation started.

Thanks for sharing
 
Question: Is value really a complete mystery since we don't (as far as I know) have any substantive data on actual selling prices? I don't know of a single place I can go to find the actual selling price on an airplane.

Am I missing something?

very true. However, we do get occasional glimpses. For example, we see a plane listed here on VAF and 2 days later it is edited to sale pending. We can assume that is sold pretty close to asking. I did a prebuy on a 4 last spring. THere was another buyer that called the seller 7 times while I was there begging him to take his deposit, presumably higher than what my buyer had agreed to. I assumed that price was attractive to the market.
 
The math used to be simple. You could sell your newly built, low time RV for about the price of a new kit, engine, etc and fund your next build. Plus or minus.
I built my 6 for $80k, and back then, could sell it for about that. Today, as a mid time 6 with all the flare of a 2005’s semi glass panel, I could probably sell if for a bit more.

Good job with the list, but there are so many variables it would be tough to come up with a meaningful scale. Still like the effort.
 
It all depends on if you really want to sell it or just say it is for sale for XXX
Look at the market for what it should sell for, then argue with yourself as to the price and slap a number on it.
I've found if you really want to sell something just price it on or below market and it will be gone.
Then you are done with it, be happy and move on to something else
My luck varies but I sell things Fixit
 
Generally, as stated by others, such a table is a good idea, but again as other said, many more factors influencing a sale.

One thing which your table does not take into account, but the market hopefully will, is the LCP problem, and the minimum 32% price increase on new kits (expecting props/engines/etc to follow suit).
Building a LCP free -9 tomorrow will be massively more expensive than it was yesterday... and shall be reflected in selling prices too. And in the factors of that table.
 
One thing which your table does not take into account, but the market hopefully will, is the LCP problem, and the minimum 32% price increase on new kits (expecting props/engines/etc to follow suit).
Building a LCP free -9 tomorrow will be massively more expensive than it was yesterday... and shall be reflected in selling prices too. And in the factors of that table.

So are the use of, or free from use of, LCP going to be logged in every RVs builders log or maintenance logbooks going forward? Not a requirement so doubt anybody will list which LCP were used.
 
Not a requirement so doubt anybody will list which LCP were used.

Correct. But assuming i'd be on the lookout for a recent RV, that would sure be one of my questions, as in "is this object LCP free?". An affirmative would then be met by an immediate loss of interest in said RV, lest it was sold as a project and reflected in the selling price.
A lot of history is being written in 2023 RV world...
 
Correct. But assuming i'd be on the lookout for a recent RV, that would sure be one of my questions, as in "is this object LCP free?". An affirmative would then be met by an immediate loss of interest in said RV, lest it was sold as a project and reflected in the selling price.
A lot of history is being written in 2023 RV world...

You do know that Van's has used some LCP for years. So if somebody showed me a logbook saying no LCP I would doubt his honesty, competency or both.

You would have to be much more specific. Like no LCP for the following part numbers .... .

Good Luck!

Oliver
 
Thanks for the wishes, always good to have :)

And a good thing I'm neither buying nor selling...

RVs containing LCP parts with rivet holes laser cut to final size, or worse, displaying cracks to the naked eyes in the same dimpled rivet holes, are, no offense intended to anybody, not acceptable.
As a last resort, any RV affected by such should have its value adjusted. A critical buyer will have to use utmost intelligence and inspection methods on any eventually affected (infected?) RV.

The point being, 2nd hand RVs should now be priced a minimum 32% higher than pre chapter 11/kit price increase + LCP devaluation.
 
Would you care to elaborate ?
What years?
What models?
What parts ?

The one part that was mentioned before is the baffling.

Don't think they ever tried to do rivet holes with a laser before which is where the problem started.

LCP means laser cut part. So my comment was in regards to making a log book entry that no LCP are in an airplane. I don't know how anybody could make that entry with any level of confidence. In addition to the Van's parts you have all the add ons E.g. I have no idea if the Garmin installation bracket I just bought is laser or water jet cut. I don't care either as it looks great but that alone would prevent me from making a honest "NO LCP" log book entry.

So if you do feel compelled to make a log book entry you would have to be quite specific with part numbers etc.. .

Oliver
 
You don't need to make a "logbook entry". Just print out the list of LCPs, and mark it up accordingly, then put it into your documentation folder or binder.

The FARs discuss "maintenance records". A list of parts and notations related thereto, along with a signature and cert number, should suffice.

No need to overcomplicate things.
 
An interesting exercise for sure. We’d all love a quantifiable, black and white valuation system. And while it was a good effort, I must agree with several others and say that it just won’t work. At least with most of these categories. For example, a low hour engine that hasn’t been flown in years… vs a mid-time engine flown regularly. Someone already mentioned leather seats being same value as an engine… which i have the same issue. Likewise, there’s currently an RV for sale claiming leather seats - replaced 5 years ago… that are visibly baggy/saggy. They are either stretched out and/or foam is worn or low quality. So years are no predictor of quality, or whether it was an even a decent seat to begin with.

I believe that prices are primarily a factor of supply, demand and what personal income’s are generally doing (economy). The prices will be what the market will support. I recently returned to flying after an extended period of “life” happening. I have been watching the primary internet sales sites (Barnstormers et al.) MULTIPLE times… EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. I’ve seen every single RV 6A, 7A, and 9A that has posted and subsequently at some point been noted as sold or removed from the listing. You start to get a feel for what is a “right-priced” listing by how quickly a plane moves… while watching others that sit for weeks on end.

You also can see the impacts of engine choices. RV-9’s with O-235’s or O-290’s sit forever. Likewise RV-7’s with O-320’s (especially 150 hp) take a long time to move and are less valued. Don’t need to even discuss Subaru.

Overall… despite back orders, supply issues, stalled projects, months of discussion regarding LCP’s and Van’s “issues”, it appears that prices peaked over the summer. They’ve flattened recently… and unless it’s got a stellar IFR panel, planes over $135K are sitting for weeks and months. Plain, basic, or ugly paint schemes with Steam panels in the $115 - 125K range are likewise not moving fast. Part of that is seasonal IMHO.

I don’t know where this is going. I’ve heard arguments well articulated on both sides that prices will rise or drop based on the bankruptcy. I personally believe that ultimately it will fall back to supply/demand/ and folks disposable income.

All of this is just my opinion and insight, and I’m sure subject to counterpoint.

After knocking the rust off, becoming current and doing a ton of research, I’ve actively moved into the active shopping mode (looking for a 9A). Will see what happens. I’m looking to fly now, and will decide if I want to build something more personal later. I’m hoping for the best for Van’s and its employees. I do feel for all of those hurt by this issue.
 
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Value vs price

Not to be a stick in the mud, but it's worth what you can get.
Look at real estate in hot areas. Ridiculous, yet people were paying. Look at collectables. I can't count how many times someone has shown me some doo dad and said it's worth $whatever. My response is no it's not. It's worth what you can get. Might be $whatever. Might be nothing. Might be a bloody fortune. Bottom line. Set your price. You can always go down.
Maybe we need a Mecum Auction for airplanes. I watch the one on TV sometimes. It would be fun to watch airplanes.
 
Phyrcooler… I wish we had a like button. Your post is logical and reasonable. I think you’re exactly correct.

Lots of moving parts right now. I’m glad I’m not actively building, buying, or selling!

[Although I’d rather be doing almost anything other than fixing a fuel tank leak on my RV-3!]
 
There’s been a surge of used RV’s down under that have been listed for sale at hideous prices of late, all no doubt due the CH11 fiasco!
An RV6A (girly version) in particular has hit the market for just under $AU240, that’s around $US325K, that’s insane! If that sells then the world really is mad!
 
There’s been a surge of used RV’s down under that have been listed for sale at hideous prices of late, all no doubt due the CH11 fiasco!
An RV6A (girly version) in particular has hit the market for just under $AU240, that’s around $US325K, that’s insane! If that sells then the world really is mad!

Ummm more like AUD240k -> USD160k but yeah still really insane prices.

Don H
 
You do know that Van's has used some LCP for years. So if somebody showed me a logbook saying no LCP I would doubt his honesty, competency or both.


Oliver
Really? That seems a bit harsh. I think that most of us would take that statement to mean "no laser cut parts that were involved in the part cracking issue"

I do think that's going to be a question for a lot of savvy buyers going forward. There are lots of airplanes that have stuff like that that are special considerations for a plane's value.

And If I were buying a plane (including my own) that had an AW issued after 2021 I'd certainly dig in to that topic.
 
What is my RV-4 worth....?

No one would ever pay me what my RV is worth (to me).

Exactly!

What is SuzieQ worth to whom? I have had quite a few people ask. My standard answer is that we could start at $2.5 million and haggle from there, then only if she was flown off of a diamond-studded runway. Amadeus is so right! She means way more to me than anyone could put a price on.
 
Value

Exactly!

What is SuzieQ worth to whom? I have had quite a few people ask. My standard answer is that we could start at $2.5 million and haggle from there, then only if she was flown off of a diamond-studded runway. Amadeus is so right! She means way more to me than anyone could put a price on.

Not my RV but someone once stopped by our house and offered to buy it. I said $5M. They looked at me like I was nuts. I said, "You asked. If you want it, that's my price."
Who would expect property values would explode. Now we get taxed on a value I never expected. Go figure.
Moral...values are subject to change.
 
There is a difference between worth and value. It would be nice if the value of existing planes went up the 30% price increase but you still have to find someone willing to pay the premium. You can price it whatever you want but that doesn’t set its value.
 
I always thought the number dictated how much it’s worth. 3,4,6,7,8,9 etc. Until it got to 12. Then I realized something had to be amiss! Lol
 
Just noticed a 14 for sale on internet. 2X7=14. Math is good! 14's are worth twice as much as 7's!!! LOL. Not that I'm jealous but cannot rationalize.
 
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