Jvon811
Well Known Member
If you're short on time or patience... The short(er) version of the question is at the bottom.
What exactly constitutes a legal Weight and Balance on the RV? The included pictures are screen grabs of some data here so people don't have to go looking for my sources. This is a question my black and white, look it up in the book, Part 121 brain just wont let go of.
I know FAR 91.9 roughly spells out "ARROW" as the required documents onboard. What exactly is the W in a Experimental aircraft with a Special Airworthiness Certificate? FAR 91.103 states I need to know "all available information concerning the flight" which would significantly change the W&B with or without a passenger in my RV-4 for example. Section 14 of the Van's Construction Manual does have a nice W&B form with sections for Most Forward CG and Most Aft CG which does define the limits nicely for the CG envelope. I believe one could argue that if I'm standing on a ramp, with a passenger, and we both weigh less than the Section 14 W&B form has calculated, then we're within known W&B numbers and 91.103 compliant but not really armed with a W&B of the current state of my airplane with my passenger, fuel, baggage, and myself.
AC 20-27G refers to a "weight and balance report" being submitted with the paperwork for a new homebuilt, but I can't seem to find what exactly that report is. (far right attached pic)
FAA Order 8130.2H spells out W&B requirements for E-LSA, but not E-AB (that I could find) (far left attached pic)
Order 8130.2H also has a sample form of 8130-11 (irrelevant, I know) showing what is in a Weight and Balance Report. That's the only place I've found on the internet in a FAA document showing what's in a "report" (middle attached pic)
So if someone is a second hand owner (such as myself), or a builder just re-weigh's their aircraft after some additions or subtractions, what do they use? Some might use their own forms, but I'm wondering how many just go to the Van's Aircraft website and download what I refer to as the "Short Form". If you've seen it, you know it's a Empty CG W&B form, and that appears to be all it is. CG of your empty airplane only. No room for information about your airplane with fuel, pilot, passenger, or baggage. If you're like me, you might also have Foreflight on your iPhone (or equivalent) which is always in your pocket and you can whip up an actual/real time W&B anytime to supplement the short form.
So the real question is, is the downloadable Empty W&B short form on the Van's Aircraft website a legal W&B to carry in the airplane (with supplementation i.e. Foreflight on your phone). Or does it HAVE to be a copy of the 2 Page, W&B form from Section 14 outlining the full possible CG range? I understand there is a Note right at the top of the short form stating it's not a replacement for the Section 14 forms. How many though, if any, second-hand RV owners have the long forms if they've reweighed the airplane? If I were to be ramp checked, standing there with two people and my RV-4, would the downloadable Empty CG short form suffice?
Through all of my 2+ hours of research to type this question up, I think I've sufficiently answered my own question, but I'd like to know an ASI or DAR's opinion.
What exactly constitutes a legal Weight and Balance on the RV? The included pictures are screen grabs of some data here so people don't have to go looking for my sources. This is a question my black and white, look it up in the book, Part 121 brain just wont let go of.
I know FAR 91.9 roughly spells out "ARROW" as the required documents onboard. What exactly is the W in a Experimental aircraft with a Special Airworthiness Certificate? FAR 91.103 states I need to know "all available information concerning the flight" which would significantly change the W&B with or without a passenger in my RV-4 for example. Section 14 of the Van's Construction Manual does have a nice W&B form with sections for Most Forward CG and Most Aft CG which does define the limits nicely for the CG envelope. I believe one could argue that if I'm standing on a ramp, with a passenger, and we both weigh less than the Section 14 W&B form has calculated, then we're within known W&B numbers and 91.103 compliant but not really armed with a W&B of the current state of my airplane with my passenger, fuel, baggage, and myself.
AC 20-27G refers to a "weight and balance report" being submitted with the paperwork for a new homebuilt, but I can't seem to find what exactly that report is. (far right attached pic)
FAA Order 8130.2H spells out W&B requirements for E-LSA, but not E-AB (that I could find) (far left attached pic)
Order 8130.2H also has a sample form of 8130-11 (irrelevant, I know) showing what is in a Weight and Balance Report. That's the only place I've found on the internet in a FAA document showing what's in a "report" (middle attached pic)
So if someone is a second hand owner (such as myself), or a builder just re-weigh's their aircraft after some additions or subtractions, what do they use? Some might use their own forms, but I'm wondering how many just go to the Van's Aircraft website and download what I refer to as the "Short Form". If you've seen it, you know it's a Empty CG W&B form, and that appears to be all it is. CG of your empty airplane only. No room for information about your airplane with fuel, pilot, passenger, or baggage. If you're like me, you might also have Foreflight on your iPhone (or equivalent) which is always in your pocket and you can whip up an actual/real time W&B anytime to supplement the short form.
So the real question is, is the downloadable Empty W&B short form on the Van's Aircraft website a legal W&B to carry in the airplane (with supplementation i.e. Foreflight on your phone). Or does it HAVE to be a copy of the 2 Page, W&B form from Section 14 outlining the full possible CG range? I understand there is a Note right at the top of the short form stating it's not a replacement for the Section 14 forms. How many though, if any, second-hand RV owners have the long forms if they've reweighed the airplane? If I were to be ramp checked, standing there with two people and my RV-4, would the downloadable Empty CG short form suffice?
Through all of my 2+ hours of research to type this question up, I think I've sufficiently answered my own question, but I'd like to know an ASI or DAR's opinion.
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