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Smoke Systems on a budget???

wera710

wera710

Well Known Member
I am looking for advice on an "affordable" smoke system for the RV-8. I've looked at several systems all $800 to $1100 and none of them are what I want. Would like to keep the cost down by half or less as this is not for airshows. I do not need a 3.5 to 5 gallon tank. Nor does the 36 pound weight (full) impress me much. I would prefer not to take up a lot of firewall or baggage space to make it happen. It will be used infrequently and I would like to keep it as light as possible.

Has anyone homebuilt a system? If so, can you share a parts list?

Is there an existing production system with a small tank but with decent output for under $500?
 
Hi Scott....

...years ago, I saw many cheap, homemade systems in ag airplanes to check for wind drift before they started spraying.

Most were a 2-2 1/5 gallon jug, strapped to the steel tubing in the Cessnas and an electric fuel pump and a switch. They didn't weld any bosses into the exhaust, but used a probe, like an EGT, with an orifice that they played with to get the amount of smoke they wanted, for a few seconds.

Most didn't have a hundred bucks in them...and it looked like it:)

Best,
 
Thanks for sharing that Tony. I had not seen your smoke install pictures before. That does look like fun, and I can already think of a few modifications :).
 
Tony, looks like a great system. Curious where did you position the injectors on the exhaust? I have a 4-1 exhaust system wondering how far downstream I can go.

Thanks,

Ken
 
I'm placing a McMaster Carr order tomorrow for the stuff! Nice simple do it yourself system Tony!!
 
wera710 said:
I am looking for advice on an "affordable" smoke system for the RV-8. I've looked at several systems all $800 to $1100 and none of them are what I want. Would like to keep the cost down by half or less as this is not for airshows. I do not need a 3.5 to 5 gallon tank. Nor does the 36 pound weight (full) impress me much. I would prefer not to take up a lot of firewall or baggage space to make it happen. It will be used infrequently and I would like to keep it as light as possible.

Has anyone homebuilt a system? If so, can you share a parts list?

Is there an existing production system with a small tank but with decent output for under $500?
Click to expand...

Check this out. http://www.aeroconversions.com/products/accessories/index.html.

I have no experience with it, but it may meet your needs.

Vern
 
Scott...

Nor does the 36 pound weight (full) impress me much.
Click to expand...
I hate to say it, but however well you build a homemade smoke system, you will not reduce the weight of the smoke oil :eek: I would use as a starting point the empty weight of 10lbs.

Depending what you want it for, you will find you need about 2L (0.5USG) / min to get a decent trail.

Smokin Airplanes do sell "2nd injector kits" - that is the one specialist / tried part that might be worth buying "OTS". The rest is just pump, piping, tank, venting, filling etc. and could be sourced according to what you can find / what quality / engineering standards you use.

Andy
 
Tony Spicer said:
Scott,

http://picasaweb.google.com/tonyboytoo/Smoke#

Tony
Click to expand...

I built my smoke system following Tony's instruction from this and it works great. Called smoking airplanes and they wanted $85 per injector and I needed two so did them Tony's way and other than breaking a few drill bits had no problems making them myself. I also added a quick disconnect to the oil line so the tank is removable. Total cost for my system including the extra drill bits was about $250. Here's a short clip. The other plane in the formation with less dense smoke is using a Smoking Airplanes dual injector system with expensive smoke oil. I am using Formkote Concentrate mixed 1:10 with diesel fuel. http://vimeo.com/15852770
 
more info

Injector location- Mine are at 8" because that's where I had room to install them. I'm guessing 3-4" inches either way would be fine. Four into one pipes? I would be inclined to use two injectors in individual pipes. Somebody thats already done it has the real answer.

Needle valve- I didn't use a needle valve in my system but instead went with hole size to control flow. The SA injector has something close to a 1/8" hole straight thru, with a similiar sized hole cross-drilled close to the end and uses a needle valve. If a needle valve works like an enlarged prostate, then I'll be darned if I understand how there's much pressure at the injector.

Pump- Many are successfully using a Shurflo low-cost pressure demand water pump. For it to work, you must either bypass the pressure switch which I think cuts the pump off at 60 psi, or crank the adjstment up high enough so the pump won't cycle. As a result the pump runs at a very high pressure. Also, the seals are designed for water, not oil. I know of one installation that eventually blew the seals. The pump I'm using is a bypass type pump designed to pump oil. Shurflo recommends the pump be mounted so any leaks in the pump won't run down into the motor. I flipped it so in/out would be where I needed them to be.

Not trying to do John at SA out of any sales, I just didn't want to give up the satisfaction of doing it myself.

Tony
 
injector location

if a person has mufflers, would you put the injectors in front of the mufflers or after?
 
allbee said:
if a person has mufflers, would you put the injectors in front of the mufflers or after?
Click to expand...

Mufflers don't lend themselves well to smoke systems. If you inject ahead of the muffler, all you do in "crud up" the internals of the muffler. If you inject after the muffler, it's typically not hot enough to burn the oil.
 
I installed both of my "Smoking Airplanes" Smoke System injectors AFTER my heat muff.

Before I replaced my exhaust system at 2,200 hours, I had one injector on the #2 - #4 pipe right after the two joined. I installed the 2nd injector AFTER the heat muff. It was between 4 and 6 inches from the exhaust exit of the #1 - #3 pipe. Smoke was much better with two injectors but did not use much more smoke oil.

I replaced my cylinders at 2,200 hours and the exhaust system even though the exhaust system could have ran longer. Enough heat cool cycles that I (and Larry Vetterman) thought it would be wise to replace before problems developed.

The new Vetterman exhaust system has both injectors installed about 2 or 3 inches forward of the firewall or about 6 inches from the ends of the exhaust system. Smoke is just as good as it was when it was right after the area where the pipes come together.

FB2Diamond.jpg


The best smoke is coming from the Mazda Rotary engine. The 540 Super 6 is 2nds. My O-320 is the lighter of the three smoke streams.

FB3TrailDiamonds.jpg


In this photo below, the Mazda Rotary is smoking on the right side of the photo. The RV-6 in the middle is smoking with a 360. My 320 is on the left side of the photo with me too far aft.
Airplane.jpg


I do not like the idea of putting the smoke injector in front of a muffler or heat muff. I would be afraid of something going wrong and smoke oil build up in the muffler or a leak developing and getting smoke in the cockpit. There is a good chance that you will have smoke in the cockpit if you do not have your vents open or if you are smoking during heavy "G"s.
 
But, he is asking about mufflers, not heat muffs. Heat muffs don't restrict exhaust flow. Mufflers do.
 
Just thinking....

I would like to put Tony's system on my car.
It would keep tailgaters at a distance.:D

Kent
 
HA!!! I like that. Might be better than my invention...the SLAPPER. Imagine an 8 foot arm, springloaded, to assist those in the fast lane (think blue hair) who insist on driving 55 mph and will not move to the right lane no matter what, because, after all, driving slow in the passing lane is their god give right. Alas...much to my dissapointment, the Slapper runs afoul of Newtons Third Law.

Hey guys, I really appreciate all the responses. THANKS! Looks like the winter project is on!
 
I like the photos that Tony put up for his smoke system. Gives me lots of ideas to play with.

There are three questions that I keep coming back to...

  • Is there any "ideal" pressure for smoke oil to be at? ie What pressure should the oil pump discharge? Can a $45 Facet fuel pump that puts out 5 - 7 psi and 20gpm do the job, or do I have to go with a 15 psi / 60 gpm, or ???

  • What is the preferred GPM flow rate per injector? I've seen a reference to 3gpm, but I couldn't tell if that was "per injector" or "total" flow rate through two injectors. Is the flow rate regulated by the orifice hole on the injector, or by a needle valve regulator?

  • Finally, I've seen several posts about various types of smoke oil. It seems that there are plenty of opinions about different oils and mixes. For example, someone said that concrete release oil is full of carcinogens. Someone else says that diesel mixed with baby oil will cover the bottom of the fuselage with great smelling oil. Someone else says that straight diesel is a no-no, but doesn't explain why. So my question is, What's your favorite mix of smoke oil and please explain why! And what is your least favorite mix, and please explain why!
 
My Experiences

I used the Smokin Airplanes system with one injector and it put out plenty of smoke for me, since I used it mainly for recognition purposes.
I mostly used diesel fuel and it seemed to work out fine. I never had any problems, but it didn't have the hang time of real smoke oil.
SOmne folks say to mix in some Farmall Tractor hydraulic fluid, about 25%, or regular transmission fluid. I never got around to trying either.
The system can leave a lot of oil on the belly; however, in the Smokin Airplanes system, there is a smoke fluid valve and you can figure out the minimum amount of open, on the valve, to get good smoke, but not full open. By doing this, and marking the spot on the valve, I rarely got residue on the belly.
I did ask about two injectors and they said that you really do not use much more oil than with one injector. I can't say for sure since i stuck with one injector and plan to stay with that. The 3.5 gal tank gives me about 4 to 5 minutes of smoke, depending on how you set the valve.
FYI - Sonex sells a small smoke system for $220 but has a small tank. http://www.sonexaircraft.com/eshop/cart.php?target=product&product_id=16744
 
DakotaHawk said:
There are three questions that I keep coming back to...
  • Is there any "ideal" pressure for smoke oil to be at? ie What pressure should the oil pump discharge? Can a $45 Facet fuel pump that puts out 5 - 7 psi and 20gpm do the job, or do I have to go with a 15 psi / 60 gpm, or ???
  • What is the preferred GPM flow rate per injector? I've seen a reference to 3gpm, but I couldn't tell if that was "per injector" or "total" flow rate through two injectors. Is the flow rate regulated by the orifice hole on the injector, or by a needle valve regulator?
Click to expand...

Do not have an answer on pressure. I do not think you need much pressure but you do need some. I do know that the Facet pump will not work as it does not have enough flow. I have a friend that tried using one and it did not provide enough flow in his RV-4.

You need between 3/4 to 1 gallon per minute to get good smoke. I had one injector and was using around 0.8 GPM. when I went to two injectors, I still use around 0.8 GPM but the smoke looks better. The puffs near the airplane are gone with two injectors. Smoking Airplanes system flow is regulated by a valve. (ball valve on original system and needle valve on the current systems.)

I am not willing to tell you to use diesel. I am not going to tell you not to use it. I will tell you not to use Jet A as it will burn if you put a match to it and it makes POOR smoke. I do not recommend ATF as it does not vaporize in my airplane and just gets all over the belly. IMHO, diesel makes good smoke for the lowest cost.
 
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Possible Fluid Connectors for smoke applications

Here are some pictures of some fluid connectors that are a quick disconnect and are zero fluid loss. They are used by the military and professional motorsports like Indy and are for fuel, water, and oil. You can find more info at www.jiffy-tite.com under motorsports or contact Duane LaFleur at 716-681-7200.

http://img196.imageshack.us/i/2140622406maletomale.jpg/

Here is a link to a brief explanation on the fittings:

http://performancebiz.com/videos/steve-zilig-michael-e-rayhill-duane-lafleur-with-jiffy-tite
 
RV6_flyer said:
...the airplane in the middle is NOT using Diesel but it is a 6-cylinder Lycoming engine turning a very low power setting.
Click to expand...

Guess I need to open the valve back up a little. I previously had it open two full turns, and was going through oil pretty fast. I closed it to about 1&1/4-ish turns, and after all three smokin' runs, and a smokin takeoff, I had used only about a third of my tank (about a gallon+). John at Smoking Airplanes told Scooter and I that the valve is pretty sensitive in that mid-range, and this confirms it. I'll open it up half a turn and see how the comparison goes next time.

I took pics of both Condor and Scooter on their takeoffs, and both had great smoke. Scooter's smoke oil had better hang time than Condor's diesel, but both were impressive. Will post when I get home (still visiting family).

I took off about half an hour later, and the guy on 2 mile final said, "aircraft departing, you have a lot of smoke behind you!" I just keyed the mic and said..."yep!" :D

Cheers,
Bob
 
Do the smoke tanks stink up the interior? Just trying to see if the War Department would sign off on something like this..
 
Do the smoke tanks stink up the interior? Just trying to see if the War Department would sign off on something like this..
Click to expand...
Diesel likely if any spilt, proper smoke oil no (which in fact is baby oil :D ). Probably the biggest reason we avoid diesel...

Andy
RV-8 G-HILZ
RV-8tors
 
Andy Hill said:
Diesel likely if any spilt, proper smoke oil no (which in fact is baby oil :D ). Probably the biggest reason we avoid diesel...

Andy
Click to expand...

Concur with Andy. You can smell diesel a bit, even with no spills. The good stuff doesn't seem to smell.

I've heard a story of some type of smoke oil that has an orange smell added to it (just for this reason), but have no confirmation of its existence.

I wonder if you could add a touch of extract of...well, whatever you like to smell...to make things smell mo betta (as long as its not lemons...can't have your airplane smelling like a "lemon"! :cool: :D)

As a racer, I'd say "add something that smells like victory"...but that line's been taken...and would probably be dangerous! ;)

Cheers,
Bob
 
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rvmills said:
I wonder if you could add a touch of extract of...well, whatever you like to smell...to make things smell mo betta (as long as its not lemons...can't have your airplane smelling like a "lemon"! :cool: :D)
Click to expand...
Drat... I guess I should stop using Lemon Pledge on my canopy then... :p
 
Smoke Oil

Just a data point for future reference:
I'm trying out the following "Freedom Form Release" oil from Fastenal as my smoke oil choice. Initial testing has gone fine, but I've only had a chance to fly with it once (did more testing on the ground). 5-gallon bucket at $56 equals a bit over $10/gallon - not as good as diesel, of course, but rumor has it that the form release oil works well.

YMMV.

http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=0207288
 
After reading almost all threads on home made smoke systems, Tony's system seems to win the prize of one of the most liked.

I PM'd Tony but he hasn't been around here in a while so in the meantime does anyone have a copy of his item list and installation?
 
If you're building your own, make it a self-loader.

The idea is simple enough. The key component is a reversing gear pump, typically used for oil change and fuel transfer on boats. The high end would be something like a Reverso, with the low end being an import copy.

https://reversopumps.com/gp-201-12l/

https://www.amazon.com/YaeMarine-Sc...ocphy=9051609&hvtargid=pla-1297632606201&th=1

You'll also need a solenoid valve at the firewall, which you should have anyway, and a common hydraulic hose quick connect. Install the hydraulic connector in some discrete location on the belly.

Wire through an ON-OFF-ON switch so polarity is reversed between the two ON positions.

One way arms a typical smoke system circuit, driving the pump and solenoid through a relay controlled by the trigger of your choice. Oil is pumped from the tank through the open solenoid valve to the injectors.

The other way makes the pump run in reverse. The closed solenoid valve means oil is drawn through the hydraulic connector. Make up a hose with the matching male fitting. Drop the other end of the hose in a barrel of smoke oil. No more pouring oil inside the airplane.

There are all kinds of quick connects out there. In addition to common tractor hose fittings, there are engine oil line connectors from the race shops. I have a system in a buddy's Rans with little Jiffy-Tite connectors.

https://www.summitracing.com/search...gs?N=brand:jiffy-tite+adapter-size:minus-6-an

Just make sure you get valved fittings. There are fittings with open ends when disconnected.
.
 

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I think you can get away with a one way check valve in place of a solenoid valve. I believe the Extra 300 just uses a one way check ball valve. Another added benefit of the one way valve is cleaner cut off because of the spring pressure.
 
DanH said:
If you're building your own, make it a self-loader.

The idea is simple enough. The key component is a reversing gear pump, typically used for oil change and fuel transfer on boats. The high end would be something like a Reverso, with the low end being an import copy.

https://reversopumps.com/gp-201-12l/

https://www.amazon.com/YaeMarine-Sc...ocphy=9051609&hvtargid=pla-1297632606201&th=1

You'll also need a solenoid valve at the firewall, which you should have anyway, and a common hydraulic hose quick connect. Install the hydraulic connector in some discrete location on the belly.

Wire through an ON-OFF-ON switch so polarity is reversed between the two ON positions.

One way arms a typical smoke system circuit, driving the pump and solenoid through a relay controlled by the trigger of your choice. Oil is pumped from the tank through the open solenoid valve to the injectors.

The other way makes the pump run in reverse. The closed solenoid valve means oil is drawn through the hydraulic connector. Make up a hose with the matching male fitting. Drop the other end of the hose in a barrel of smoke oil. No more pouring oil inside the airplane.

There are all kinds of quick connects out there. In addition to common tractor hose fittings, there are engine oil line connectors from the race shops. I have a system in a buddy's Rans with little Jiffy-Tite connectors.

https://www.summitracing.com/search...gs?N=brand:jiffy-tite+adapter-size:minus-6-an

Just make sure you get valved fittings. There are fittings with open ends when disconnected.
.
Click to expand...


Thanks. Today I ordered the tank and the pump. The quick disconnects, fittings, and the hoses I can buy at the local racing shop like I did for my RV8.
 
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Taltruda said:
I think you can get away with a one way check valve in place of a solenoid valve. I believe the Extra 300 just uses a one way check ball valve. Another added benefit of the one way valve is cleaner cut off because of the spring pressure.
Click to expand...


Which check valve do you recommend?
 
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I don’t have experience building a smoke system yet, but I fly with enough guys who have them.. without some sort of check valve, the “smoke off” call will still dribble a little.. a spring loaded check ball type valve should provide a better crisp smoke off. I think Summit and Jegs have one way check valves.

Self loading smoke tanks are really cool, but in the Extra 300, there is some sort of float that turns off the pump when the tank gets full..
 
Regarding the exhaust nozzles, it looks like Tony made his own. Does anyone have pictures of what he did or has anyone made their own? The ones I used on the RV8 were ordered online but if I can make my own that would be more fulfilling.
 
Taltruda said:
Self loading smoke tanks are really cool, but in the Extra 300, there is some sort of float that turns off the pump when the tank gets full..
Click to expand...

Oops, forgot about that when I drew the diagram. Last one included an overflow pipe exiting the belly near the fill fitting. When the tank gets full it just runs out the overflow into a cup. S-7, so didn't care about oil loss in flight. Owner never gets inverted.

Plan B might be a sight tube.
 
Capflyer said:
I built my smoke system following Tony's instruction from this and it works great. Called smoking airplanes and they wanted $85 per injector and I needed two so did them Tony's way and other than breaking a few drill bits had no problems making them myself. I also added a quick disconnect to the oil line so the tank is removable. Total cost for my system including the extra drill bits was about $250. Here's a short clip. The other plane in the formation with less dense smoke is using a Smoking Airplanes dual injector system with expensive smoke oil. I am using Formkote Concentrate mixed 1:10 with diesel fuel. http://vimeo.com/15852770
Click to expand...

Do you have a copy of the home made nozzle instructions and pictures? They were $85 at smoking airplanes back in 2010 but now they don't even sell them separately.
 
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