Van's Air Force
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RV14A Valuation with laser cut parts
- Thread starter DC3Flyer
- Start date
LCP’s could mean almost anything. Just flaps, just ailerons, just empennage ? Fuselage, who knows. You’ll need to documents exactly where the LCP’s are. Unfortunately Vans might not even know. QB ? That’s even harder to understand the issue. Possibly post exact ships dates of kits and if QB dates arrived the US might help. Lots of very knowledgeable builders willing to help on this site.
The LCP issue is going to be a legacy problem long term.
The LCP issue is going to be a legacy problem long term.
My wing kit (which I hadn't yet assembled) had laser cut parts and I chose to replace them all - including the ones that I had to pay for myself. Not because I was worried about future airworthiness issues but because of the likely hit to future resale value. If a buyer has a choice of an RV-14 with or without laser cut parts, which will they choose? An informed buyer probably won't pay full price and may skip the airplane altogether because of this.
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I did the same on our RV-10 build, I also added the part number stickers to the build log showing the more current date codes.
Peace of mind for resale….
There are different kinds of LCPs. Remember the Vans table for replacement? There are RED, YELLOW, PURPLE, BLUE, and GREEN LCPs.
From "Replacement Recommended" to "Acceptable for Use". Now, RV's advertised for sale that say "no laser cut parts" could have a range of meaning.
On my -14 project, I replaced ALL LCPs. red to green. (Except a few baffle parts.) Some paid by Vans, some by me.
To OP's question, the value of a -14 with LCPs will depend on the color applied. Does it mean just Red and Yellow? Or, the full range?
I think many sellers may not realize the possible range of their LCP statements (or dont want to).
Sorry to complicate the answer.
From "Replacement Recommended" to "Acceptable for Use". Now, RV's advertised for sale that say "no laser cut parts" could have a range of meaning.
On my -14 project, I replaced ALL LCPs. red to green. (Except a few baffle parts.) Some paid by Vans, some by me.
To OP's question, the value of a -14 with LCPs will depend on the color applied. Does it mean just Red and Yellow? Or, the full range?
I think many sellers may not realize the possible range of their LCP statements (or dont want to).
Sorry to complicate the answer.
glider_rider
Well Known Member
If I would be buying a 14, the fact that LCP were used would not be a major concern.
There is a limited number of places in the 14 structure where you would not be able to visually inspect the rivets / dimples. Flaps, ailerons come to mind.
Everything else can and should be eyeboled. A cracked dimple is a cracked dimple irrespective of the root cause of the crack.
If the inspectable parts of the structure would look OK than I would not have any reason to believe that the non inspectable parts are any different.
There is a limited number of places in the 14 structure where you would not be able to visually inspect the rivets / dimples. Flaps, ailerons come to mind.
Everything else can and should be eyeboled. A cracked dimple is a cracked dimple irrespective of the root cause of the crack.
If the inspectable parts of the structure would look OK than I would not have any reason to believe that the non inspectable parts are any different.
N10KE
Well Known Member
To steal a saying from a well known former Van's engineer - "Laser Cut Parts are not the issue. Laser Mis-cut Parts are."
The fact that we are discussing this several years after the issue was supposedly put to rest indicates that it still is an issue for some, if not many. The fact that many builders replaced all laser cut parts (regardless of "color") indicates that there was a lot of apprehension despite the assurances from the factory.
The biggest shame is that most of this could have been avoided if the factory had simply listened to builders when they told them there were cracks when parts were being dimpled. They didn't - builders were told to "build on" plus parts and QB kits continued to be manufactured for almost a year. We all know the end result for Van's.
The fact that we are discussing this several years after the issue was supposedly put to rest indicates that it still is an issue for some, if not many. The fact that many builders replaced all laser cut parts (regardless of "color") indicates that there was a lot of apprehension despite the assurances from the factory.
The biggest shame is that most of this could have been avoided if the factory had simply listened to builders when they told them there were cracks when parts were being dimpled. They didn't - builders were told to "build on" plus parts and QB kits continued to be manufactured for almost a year. We all know the end result for Van's.
Have a look here for the RV-14 specific parts.
I think this is mostly a non issue. Sure, if you are selling to a VAF member who spent months reviewing the threads here as the saga unfolded then its an iisue. But in reality, most buyers will NOT be those people and many will barely cruise past a few posts here. I still hear about folks buying RVs with NO pre buy or one done by an A&P that has barely seen a few RVs let alone understand the LCP issue. In our little world, it is a big thing, outside that world it is barely known. And even if you did know, there is no easy way to figure out if a plane is or is not affected. Then there is the fact that many sellers are pretty loose with factual detail.
Further, I strongly doubt ANY RV with LCP parts is going to break up and fall out of the sky. I have seen a lot in prebuys that have issues that are much scarier or wallet busters than LCP. Iwould be WAYYYY more concerned with flying patterns conducive to lifter spalling than I would be with LCP presence.
You simply can't estimate the impact of an issue like this until you understand your potential buyer pool and simply can't do that by evalluating VAF member sentiment as they are not part of that pool.
Further, I strongly doubt ANY RV with LCP parts is going to break up and fall out of the sky. I have seen a lot in prebuys that have issues that are much scarier or wallet busters than LCP. Iwould be WAYYYY more concerned with flying patterns conducive to lifter spalling than I would be with LCP presence.
You simply can't estimate the impact of an issue like this until you understand your potential buyer pool and simply can't do that by evalluating VAF member sentiment as they are not part of that pool.
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simpsontl48
Active Member
Any RV with any LCP will be forever tarnished. Would be buyers beware. If you want one, it should be heavily discounted right up front.
AZSteve053
Well Known Member
So - How did YOU value the plane when you purchased it? Did you know about the laser mis-cut parts issue prior to purchasing? If you are concerned about the laser cut parts then other might be... When you sell the plane, be honest and disclose what you know, do not speculate, do not represent things you are not certain of. You're likely talking about a sale that an uninformed purchaser who becomes aware after the fact may feel like they were taken advantage of... with all the possible ramifications that that could bring. Possibly consider having a professional appraisal done of the plane, disclosing what you know and let them write a proper report with all the proper words in it... potentially takes you out of the liability chain as best you can. For good or bad, by posting here you now have a documented history of "concern" and being educated to some extent that can be easily found with an internet search by anyone.
Ok. So if an airplane says LCP parts replaced, how do you value it?
Not being a smarty pants. I've drilled thousands of rivets. I know how to do it without the bit hitting parts. My concern seeing that description is just because the parts were replaced, doesn't necessarily mean it's better. No offense, but it could be worse for having it done. I would want a deep dive with a bore scope on all the replaced parts.
Flame away.
Not being a smarty pants. I've drilled thousands of rivets. I know how to do it without the bit hitting parts. My concern seeing that description is just because the parts were replaced, doesn't necessarily mean it's better. No offense, but it could be worse for having it done. I would want a deep dive with a bore scope on all the replaced parts.
Flame away.
I agree completely. Do the inspections on the critical parts and look for any signs of cracking.
N10KE
Well Known Member
You’re assuming the critical parts are even accessible for inspection and that the cracks (if they exist) have propagated enough to be seen.
The school of thought that said laser mis-cut parts would be an issue down the road - whether a “real” structural concern or simply one of perception (so no thanks) seems to be valid. It certainly got downplayed and belittled by some here at the time.
Despite all the testing and reassurances from Van’s - no other manufacturer that I’m aware of has now also accepted the “cracks are ok” mantra that went contrary to the nearly 80+ years of accepted practice across the industry.
The overriding question would be “why take the risk?”
You may be right. But my prediction would be that the vast majority of future RV buyers will either have no idea about LCP or won’t care. Time will tell I suppose.
N10KE
Well Known Member
Do you think that's also true of anyone doing a pre-buy for the buyers? Yes, I realize there are some number of buyers that don't even bother with a pre-buy - but I hope that's an ever decreasing minority.
After reviewing Van's engineering study while I was building my -12, and junking some structures, I think the key issue is whether the parts coded red (in Van's list of parts for that model) were replaced. If a potential buyer is trying to push the price down for other parts (blue, green, etc.), I think you'll find another buyer who's better informed. If that doesn't prove correct, I'm sure VAF readers would be interested to hear.
For the vast majority of A&Ps doing pre-buys, yes. It’s important not to confuse (a) the level of RV-specific knowledge and concern in this forum with (b) what exists in The Real World.
It’s like comparing people at a Trekkie convention to people who have seen Star Trek.
Again, I could be wrong.
Plenty of A&Ps doing prebuys that have never been to VAF. How would you even know about the LCP issue if not a member here or the FB group? Outside of our community, this is virtually unknown. No SBs on this.
Haven't bought it yet....just considering and looking to understand as much as possible beforehand. It's a sizeable investment.
AZSteve053
Well Known Member
Maybe no Service Bulletins, but Van's has at least two Service Letters published & available on it's website. Any one looking for current Safety & Service Info can & should go to the manufactures website for the latest & historical Info... this should be done for every prebuy & condition inspection in my opinion.
N10KE
Well Known Member
So you are a “new to Van’s” potential buyer and you’ve come here to VAF to do research? And your research led you to ask about laser mis-cut parts? If both of these are true - (1) good on you for doing some due diligence and (2) - to those who say no one else outside our community knows or cares about LMP - here’s some proof to the contrary.
I think it’s an issue even if only perspective and not actually structural.
N=1. I wonder how many RVs were pre-buyed or purchased this week.
N10KE
Well Known Member
Ok a single data point. Got it.
How many of those planes purchased or pre-buyed were in the range of affected airplanes? How many flying planes are in that range to begin with? Maybe 200 out of 11,000+?
Would you think twice about buying a GM vehicle with a 6.2L V8 or a current generation Toyota/Lexus with the 3.5L twin turbo V6 even though only a small percentage are likely to fail? Or are you going to look elsewhere as there are other, less risky choices?
I think this is an interesting comparison. Really not sure if their new price or resale value has plummeted.
N10KE
Well Known Member
Big time thread drift, but if you are talking about the Toyota engine failures - yes, a lot of dealers won't even take a current generation Tundra on trade due to the huge recall. And prices have plummeted on the trucks - so much so that the previous generation Tundras with the nearly bulletproof 5.7L V8 are commanding a premium over the newest generation.
Whether or not the LMP debacle is or ever will become a safety of flight issue may take years to play out. I still say why take the chance when there are other options?
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When I was at OSH a few years ago, (right after the Vans presentation how LCPs "should" have been fine if our suppliers (who we had not audited) would have used our specified cutting procedure. I went around to several kit producers and asked their engineers if they had used LCP for structural members or thought of using LCP's. The answer was "no way". My guess is potential buyers spending well over 200k for these recent airframes will do their due diligence and builders need to document how they mitigated the issue.
And how many rv sellers publish the ship date of their kit? How many buyers would even know the affected shipping dates?
I’m not sure I’d call it mostly a non-issue.
VAF members may not represent the whole buyer pool, but the LCP issue is not exactly buried inside the VAF bubble either. A basic search — or even asking AI what to look for when buying a used Van’s RV-14 — quickly brings up caution about laser-cut parts.
So a buyer doesn’t have to have followed the whole saga to become concerned during normal due diligence.
Fair points. Though one has to wonder how buyers would navigate around that and cross check the seller. Can’t tell you how many issues i have found on pre buy inspections that were not disclosed by the seller. Sure, many were not known by the seller, but many were way too obvious for them to be oblivious.
N10KE
Well Known Member
What a great idea. This ought to be added to the classified template for selling a plane. Those without LCP/LMP or those who preemptively replaced will be able to distinguish themselves from those who have LCP/LMP. Kinda like damage history.
Ship dates of kits - Emp/Fuse/Wing/Finish
LMP/LCP - yes/no/replaced/mitigated/don’t know
Details on replacement and/or mitigation
Does anyone have an idea what an RV-14A empennage kit might be worth if it includes laser-cut parts that were never replaced by Van's?
I only assembled the vertical stabilizer. Right when I started on the rudder, the laser-cut parts issue came up. Since I was able to get my money back through my credit card and had not really lost anything, I never pursued the replacement parts with Van's.
Now the large box of metal is just taking up space in my garage. I know a lot of parts are affected by the laser-cut issue, but there are also plenty of skins and other parts that should still be usable.
Does the kit still have any resale value, even if mostly for the unaffected parts? Worst case, I guess it still makes a pretty cool garage decoration.
I only assembled the vertical stabilizer. Right when I started on the rudder, the laser-cut parts issue came up. Since I was able to get my money back through my credit card and had not really lost anything, I never pursued the replacement parts with Van's.
Now the large box of metal is just taking up space in my garage. I know a lot of parts are affected by the laser-cut issue, but there are also plenty of skins and other parts that should still be usable.
Does the kit still have any resale value, even if mostly for the unaffected parts? Worst case, I guess it still makes a pretty cool garage decoration.
This is a bit of an interesting question. Since Van’s never got paid for the kit I would bet that they would not issue a Bill of Sale for a plane built based on this kit. Every Builder makes mistakes and ruins pieces, but them finding you as a source would be tricky.
Clearly there is some value here, but it would be far less than a kit that could become a plane…
I would do an inventory and see what laser cut parts you have so you can be clear in a for sales posting, and then look for a buyer who is looking to replace tail parts due to damage.
Clearly there is some value here, but it would be far less than a kit that could become a plane…
I would do an inventory and see what laser cut parts you have so you can be clear in a for sales posting, and then look for a buyer who is looking to replace tail parts due to damage.
