Four child sized adults...
Van's Air Force
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Really want a Vans 10…sling is a siren I hear
- Thread starter Hodgesdc
- Start date
Being a bad/poor builder.
I agree with Dan. The tail kit is not a big investment, and you'll find out quickly whether you can or can't (most likely can - it's not rocket surgery). There are many aftermarket companies that support the RV-10 with full interiors, consoles, panel builds, etc. You'll have to make choices, but hey, you get to make choices!
Full Disclosure: Building a plane (any plane) is a significant time & money-consuming commitment, and it's not for everyone. The hours quoted by kit manufacturers, IMHO, are for the airframe, not the whole enchilada, and the total doesn't include all the time you'll spend reading, learning, researching, polling (like your thread here) and generally head-scratching. You will be eating an elephant, make no mistake about it.
That being said, if you complete the journey, you will be a member of a small brotherhood, to be sure. No one can possibly understand what it takes, unless they've done it themselves. If any of this scares you, you should buy a flying RV-10.
Full Disclosure: Building a plane (any plane) is a significant time & money-consuming commitment, and it's not for everyone. The hours quoted by kit manufacturers, IMHO, are for the airframe, not the whole enchilada, and the total doesn't include all the time you'll spend reading, learning, researching, polling (like your thread here) and generally head-scratching. You will be eating an elephant, make no mistake about it.
That being said, if you complete the journey, you will be a member of a small brotherhood, to be sure. No one can possibly understand what it takes, unless they've done it themselves. If any of this scares you, you should buy a flying RV-10.
Auburntsts
Well Known Member
Sling does offer factory build assist that does a couple of things. 1. First and foremost, it gets you flying in a fraction of the time 2. You have immediate factory support right there to give you feedback/help which basically eliminates the bad builder concern. Of course, this comes at a significant cost, like north of $500K. If money was no object and I was building again this is the route I would take in heartbeat. That said there is at least one other thread here on VAF comparing the Sling Highwing to the RV-10. Basically, it is analogous to comparing a 172 to a 182. Some overlap in mission but different performance capabilities.
If you go the RV-10 route, seriously consider a builder assist outfit (SynergyAir - who I’ve used - has a facility in Georgia, and it primarily focuses on RV-10’s, but there a quite a few others as well).
I was in a similar situation as you (age-wise) back in 2018. Wanted to build, but also wanted to get a flying plane well before my flying days evaporated. So, I spent about two weeks per month at Synergy (in Eugene, Or) and had the plane built and flying in about 14 mos.
Btw - I did the building. The time savings was a consequence of the process and working under the supervision of folks who’d built about 200 RVs at that time. Each day when I showed up at Synergy, we hit the ground building. With their guidance, I didn’t have to sweat over deciphering plans, looking for the proper tools, or figuring out the proper technique. I could just focus on building.
Additionally, I used Aerotronics with the design and build of my panel. The end result was a virtually a plug and play full IFR Garmin panel. I can’t say enough about Aerotronics, but I know there are a few other really good shops for this as well.
As for paint - there are lots of options. Currently I’m building another RV14 (w a DeltaHawk engine) and we’re using Fulltron in St. Louis. I met these folks at Oshkosh last year and saw their work first hand and was really impressed.
I don’t mean this post to be a big ad for all these outfits I’ve mentioned. My main point is there are choices out there that will allow you to build your RV-10, do it very well, and get to the point you’re actually flying it well before you age out!
BTW - I just passed 900 hours on the RV14 I built at SynergyAir back in 2019. I personally know guys who began projects when I did, and are still building. Building an RV on your own is not a quick process. Not saying that’s a bad thing - especially if you like the building process. I happen to like the flying part a bit more.
I was in a similar situation as you (age-wise) back in 2018. Wanted to build, but also wanted to get a flying plane well before my flying days evaporated. So, I spent about two weeks per month at Synergy (in Eugene, Or) and had the plane built and flying in about 14 mos.
Btw - I did the building. The time savings was a consequence of the process and working under the supervision of folks who’d built about 200 RVs at that time. Each day when I showed up at Synergy, we hit the ground building. With their guidance, I didn’t have to sweat over deciphering plans, looking for the proper tools, or figuring out the proper technique. I could just focus on building.
Additionally, I used Aerotronics with the design and build of my panel. The end result was a virtually a plug and play full IFR Garmin panel. I can’t say enough about Aerotronics, but I know there are a few other really good shops for this as well.
As for paint - there are lots of options. Currently I’m building another RV14 (w a DeltaHawk engine) and we’re using Fulltron in St. Louis. I met these folks at Oshkosh last year and saw their work first hand and was really impressed.
I don’t mean this post to be a big ad for all these outfits I’ve mentioned. My main point is there are choices out there that will allow you to build your RV-10, do it very well, and get to the point you’re actually flying it well before you age out!
BTW - I just passed 900 hours on the RV14 I built at SynergyAir back in 2019. I personally know guys who began projects when I did, and are still building. Building an RV on your own is not a quick process. Not saying that’s a bad thing - especially if you like the building process. I happen to like the flying part a bit more.
RV7Guy
Well Known Member
GO WITH THE 10!! I've built to RV7's and still have the second one. I had the opportunity to buy a 10 and now thoroughly regret I didn't build a 10 instead of the 2nd 7. You've got lots of room, baggage area and performance. The 10 is easy and a delight to fly. True 4 place with fuel with performance. You're not getting that with the Sling. One thing that I haven't seen mentioned, is that Sling is South African company. Yes, they have a presence in the US but not like Van's. Both are going to be expensive to build but you'll get so much more with the 10. My 10 has air conditioning too which is great here in AZ.
Consider watching Aviation101's YouTube videos on the Sling build. I find it concerning that in the few weeks between shipping the engine and installing it, there were already like 5 ADs on the engine. For example: "do a test on how hard the crankcase is, we made some out of too soft aluminum", or "check that certain oil channels are open, we goofed up and there might be a lot of sealant clogging some", and the latter was the case with their plane. They put in a brand new engine to save time but, the entire engine wire harness is paired to the engine, so they had to remove the current wire harness and replace engine and harness. Sounds like a bleeding edge engine solution. How much more work is on the horizon to keep up with future engine ADs?
I originally wanted to build a sling, but a few key items spoke against it:
1 - Go to FlightAware, and pick 10 random flights from some RV-10s and some Sling TSIs. You will see that for whatever reason, Slings mostly travel at 140 kt, and RV-10s travel at 165-175kt. That's a pretty big difference.
2 - Go to Rotax and check the density of repair shops. If you have an engine problem in a random place, you are stuck for a long time. With a Lycoming engine, you are probably continuing the next day even if you have a bent pushrod and need new valves (own experience at Prescott Az).
3 - Sling uses 6061T6 aluminum, Vans uses 2024T3. Google the difference, or get a sample of both and drill a hole in it. 6061 is very soft but it's probably what they can get in South Africa.
4 - On a Sling, there are no real doors, what opens is the curved window only. You climb in from the top, not from the side. We tried both at Oshkosh before building and the Sling just felt tiny against the RV-10.
To be fair, there are a few downsides to the RV-10:
1 - The RV-10 was designed by Vans in 2003 and they haven't really done much to it since even though it is still one of their two best sellers. If you follow the manual to the end, you have an empty shell. It takes a lot of research to do the entire wiring, place the antennas, place the pitot tube, place the OAT sensor, get seats covered, etc. Compare the build manual to the RV-12 or RV-14, and you will see the difference. There, everything is laid out. Also, the fiberglass parts are better in newer Vans models, for example, the RV-10 cowl has no scribe lines, the RV-14 has so you know where to trim. It also seems, the RV-10 molds are copies of copies of molds, the joggles are hardly present and nothing really fits, so lots of fiberglass work is necessary. This means that you need a good network of experienced RV-10 builders who fill in the blanks. It will be hard to build an RV-10 in a remote place with no-one around to help you.
2 - Even with lots of help, the RV-10 is considerably more work than the Sling to build. The difference can be several years.
3 - Lycoming engines have a long lead time.
4 - The RV-10 has no factory option for installing a parachute like the Sling does.
I originally wanted to build a sling, but a few key items spoke against it:
1 - Go to FlightAware, and pick 10 random flights from some RV-10s and some Sling TSIs. You will see that for whatever reason, Slings mostly travel at 140 kt, and RV-10s travel at 165-175kt. That's a pretty big difference.
2 - Go to Rotax and check the density of repair shops. If you have an engine problem in a random place, you are stuck for a long time. With a Lycoming engine, you are probably continuing the next day even if you have a bent pushrod and need new valves (own experience at Prescott Az).
3 - Sling uses 6061T6 aluminum, Vans uses 2024T3. Google the difference, or get a sample of both and drill a hole in it. 6061 is very soft but it's probably what they can get in South Africa.
4 - On a Sling, there are no real doors, what opens is the curved window only. You climb in from the top, not from the side. We tried both at Oshkosh before building and the Sling just felt tiny against the RV-10.
To be fair, there are a few downsides to the RV-10:
1 - The RV-10 was designed by Vans in 2003 and they haven't really done much to it since even though it is still one of their two best sellers. If you follow the manual to the end, you have an empty shell. It takes a lot of research to do the entire wiring, place the antennas, place the pitot tube, place the OAT sensor, get seats covered, etc. Compare the build manual to the RV-12 or RV-14, and you will see the difference. There, everything is laid out. Also, the fiberglass parts are better in newer Vans models, for example, the RV-10 cowl has no scribe lines, the RV-14 has so you know where to trim. It also seems, the RV-10 molds are copies of copies of molds, the joggles are hardly present and nothing really fits, so lots of fiberglass work is necessary. This means that you need a good network of experienced RV-10 builders who fill in the blanks. It will be hard to build an RV-10 in a remote place with no-one around to help you.
2 - Even with lots of help, the RV-10 is considerably more work than the Sling to build. The difference can be several years.
3 - Lycoming engines have a long lead time.
4 - The RV-10 has no factory option for installing a parachute like the Sling does.
I’m no metallurgist, but I don’t think 6061 is somehow an inferior, second choice, “soft” aluminum. It’s just one alloy that, like any other, has its own set of strengths and weaknesses. You then need to design the aircraft to account for those characteristics, as Zenith and (apparently) Sling do with 6061, and as Vans does with 2024.
For our purposes, the only bad or inferior aluminum alloy is the one that’s different from what the designer specifies.
Thanks for that insight. Your comments generally reflect what most of my concerns have been between both. I just got back from OSH Saturday and I’m generally 80% sure that the 10 will be my choice. The next step is to head to OR to fly the sucker and look at the kits. I’ll order the plans this week just to look them over (something Vans reps recommended). Synergy Air South is generally nearby to me and I’m heading down there to do a fundamentals build class with them before I order the tool box and start collecting tools. I think the sling is an awesome aircraft and I generally like the idea of the Tsi but for my mission and what I want out of my investment it is falling short. This became pretty clear while I reviewed them in OSH.
Completely agree with the aluminum debate. I have a friend finishing up a zenith and it’s a great aircraft. Different applications. I know vans incorporates the skin into the structural rigidity of the aircraft so it should be a different alloy. Riveting techniques differ as well and I’m sure that plays a part.
For all who have replied on this thread I want to give a heartfelt ‘thanks’. I appreciate all your insights and advice. OSH was an amazing experience (I flew my 58 C172 in) and had a great week learning and exploring. I’ve returned really in love with the 10. I’m cautious in my exuberance but I truly feel compelled to build this plane. The more I interacted with RV builders and the Vans staff I really feel like ‘they’ are my people. I enjoy challenges and I am really feeling inspired and excited to start to put the pieces in place to tackle this. As with most projects I start I’m sure the exuberance will fade (my recent 3 1/2 year renovation of a 1939 farm house comes to mind-but the rent check it generates every month sure helps me remember why I did it). Be sure that as this progresses I’ll be asking the force for advice and guidance. I can only hope that the responses I get then are as good as I’ve gotten with this thread!
My advise is surround yourself with builders. I built in our garage for 13 years. Sweetie was my helper. When we moved to a hangar, the community made a huge difference. It doesn't matter what they are building. What matters is the encouragement and sharing. I'm finished, but someone is almost always visiting. I recently gave one builder some primer to play. I loaned my wing jig and rotisserie to another builder. I can't count the number of times I've asked others for help or helped. Builders build. Communities finish. It takes a tribe. Find one.
