Propelled Engineering-NEW Rotary FWF company!

[cjensen]

I was just reading the latest issue of Contact! Magazine, and there is an article on the new company called Propelled Engineering. They displayed at Sun N Fun this year, and are ramping up for production of a complete FWF rotary kit!

Propelled Engineering

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[frankh]

Yup

And the first thing they do is put the fuel pumps on the firewall...Worse place you can put them from a vapour lock perspective!

Frank

 

[rv8ch]

FWF Rotary package

I believe if these folks do it right they will be wildly successful and make tons of money.

Eggenfellner is selling dozens of engine packages a year.

I could never figure out why Tracy Crook didn't produce a FWF package, since he sells about 99% of the stuff needed for a package, and he seems to produce quality components.

Best of luck to Art and Cheryl!

 

[rv6ejguy]

Could be pretty good for many people but do they have it all flying? If so, how many hours? Price is pretty similar to Eggenfellner and quite a bit higher than the clones.

Not sure about the SFC comments. Yeah wrong place for the pumps IMO.

Anyway, good news for Wankelers and they are using Tracy's drive and ECU.

Worth watching for more info.

 

[rtry9a]

Aren't low wing FI fuel pumps normally placed inside of or close to the wing tanks?

Without seeing an RV example of this system fully mounted, it is hard to formulate an opinion. I saw nothing there about the motor mount, cooling system, exhaust system, ignition, and little about the intake- it looks like they cut off and altered a Mazda intake manifold?

IMHO, it looks awfully expensive for what is delivered- a lot of unnecessary custom parts. $400 for remote oil filter/lines, 500 for steam separator, 1350 for machined motor mounting lugs??? No thanks.

 

[cjensen]

I believe if these folks do it right they will be wildly successful and make tons of money.

Eggenfellner is selling dozens of engine packages a year.

I could never figure out why Tracy Crook didn't produce a FWF package, since he sells about 99% of the stuff needed for a package, and he seems to produce quality components.

Best of luck to Art and Cheryl!

Didn't I hear that Eggenfellner may have sold out for this year as of the end of Sun N Fun??? Mine is booked for 2009 already, so their order book goes out a ways...

I feel the same way, Mickey, about Tracy. He could deliver a nice FWF package at a really decent price, considering what he's already selling.

This package seems expensive, but I wish them well since this is the ONLY FWF rotary package becoming available.

As far as I know, they are NOT flying this yet, Ross.

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[frankh]

Aren't low wing FI fuel pumps normally placed inside of or close to the wing tanks?

.

Hydraulically speaking yes they are. The standard AFP boost pump package is placed on the floor on the cool side of the firewall. Not the absolute ideal situation as you really want absolutely no restrictions between the tank and the inlet to the pump. In practicality however you will at least have a filter between the tank and pump.

MY FI pumps are indeed in the wing roots, almost ideal from a (non) VL point of view but you have to take the wingroot fairings off to get to them and you should leave a small reserve in each tank should a pump quit.

I don't have a mechanical fuel pump...The system works very well and this is the second airplane I built this way.

One should make sure the pumps are independantly wired of course.

Frank

 

[airguy]

and you should leave a small reserve in each tank should a pump quit.
Frank

Huhh??

Don't quite follow your thought process there - are you saying you should always switch tanks leaving a little reserve behind (don't run it bone dry), in case the full(er) tank pump should decide to quit, which would then leave you with the other functioning pump and a short reserve for an emergency landing? That would make good sense in ANY case, not just with FI pumps.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Be careful, take deep breaths

Take a deep breath this is not the second coming.

I HIGHLY recommend that interested people wait, in my opinion, wait until they have many customer built RV's with their FWF and get some data. It is that or personally flight test their prototype product, before plunking down $27,995.00 + crating and shipping which are extra. Plus you need to buy a PROP.......(what kind of engine, used rebuilt and to what standards?)

Frankly it seems that going with RWS you can save at least $7,000-$10,000 over what they are offering? My point is because they have a web site don't be so quick to put your money and life on the line.

 

[PJSeipel]

I HIGHLY recommend that interested people wait, in my opinion and recommendation, to wait until they have many customer built RV's with there FWF and get some data.

Not to be contrary, but how are they going to have "many customer built RV's with their FWF" to compile data if everyone waits?

You advise people not to go an alternative engine route until the fleet has many thousands of hours on hundreds of customer installs, but just how is a company going to get those hours? Do we expect them to give away free engines to the first 100 customers? I mean, come on George, someone had stick their neck out there and install the first Lycoming, right?

PJ Seipel
RV-10 #40032

P.S. I have a Lycoming on the front of my RV-10, but I don't understand why we're so quick to poo-poo the guys who want to experiment.

 

[fmarino1976]

2 stroke oil?

from their FAQ:

What about oil injection into the rotor housing area?

The oil injection pump has been disabled and we mix two stroke oil with the gas. The formula is 1 oz. of two stroke oil to 1 gallon of gas.

I don't know about you guys, but this is a turn off for me. You'd have to haul the oil, hoping it doesn't make a mess in the airplane, make sure you remember to add the oil after filling the tanks, keep a measuring device handy, etc.

 

[rv6ejguy]

I'm with George on this one. IMO, serious people would buy or build an RV, install their FF package and put many hundreds of hours on it. They would post actual data like weight, fuel flow vs. TAS, climb performance etc. on their site. Get the bugs out before they start offering packages to the public. Might cost $75-$100K but they would be able to write it off and give demo flights to customers.

I'd be wary with this much coin until at least one is flying that I could ride in. I wish them well but they are going to need to get their prices down a bit to be really successful.

The lure of auto engines for most would seem to be lower cost, smoother operation, use of pump gas, cheaper OH costs etc. When a company gets a good, reliable conversion down to $15K or so, then I'll be impressed.

 

[w1curtis]

Hmm.

I believe if these folks do it right they will be wildly successful and make tons of money.

Eggenfellner is selling dozens of engine packages a year.

I could never figure out why Tracy Crook didn't produce a FWF package, since he sells about 99% of the stuff needed for a package, and he seems to produce quality components.

Best of luck to Art and Cheryl!

Hmm. $28K for an auto conversion putting out ~180 HP. A 180 HP parallel valve TMX IO-360 is around $22K. A TMX IO-390 putting out 210 HP is about $32K; what am I missing here?

Making tons of money might be possible if they can get enough people to shut off their brains. I had a marketing professor that use to use the phrase "will sell well into the dozens" to referring to products he thought was a bust.

I'm continually amazed a what *vendors* are charging for unproven products in the *experimental* market. To me if the certified version of a product cost X, then an unproved, uncertified version should be WAY less than 50% of X for me to even consider it. So many of these vendors assume that they can charge X or in this case 1.3X --what am I missing?

 

[fstringham7a]

In my previous life ...before RV....I was trying to build a plans built composite two seater ( Vision by American Affordable Aircraft). My engine of choice was a Mazda 13b rebuilt using Tracy Crook's info and products. He has a great manual, great products, large following with many aircraft with rotary engines flying successfully.

Problem for me in the end was my very sloooooow progress building a composite aircraft coupled with some minor problems, For Me, in regards to the 13B. First I am not much of a gear-head, so I knew I probably would have a difficult time building up a FWF package (5 yeaqrs ago). I was concerned with the weight of the engine, the heat it puts out, the exhaust problems, and the problem with not having a motor mount for the engine. I do believe the engine is a tremendous RPM generating plateform. It is very robust with great endurance and is absolutley simple having only three moving parts.

Tracy has solved most if not all of the problems. There is a great motor mount now available. I still don't klnow about the weight, exhaust, heat problems?

So where does this leave me. Well........lycosorause with all the bells and whistles....I have decided to go with the old air cooled tried and true!

I will watch this new company's progress and I do wish them the best. I personally believe if the minor bugs are worked out they will be a great competitor to the egg's and the lyco's.

Frank @ SGU Rv7A "NDY" but the rest of the build stuff is about to be ordered.

 

[N941WR]

WTF!!!????

$27,995.00 for a 180 hp engine?

That's all I've got to say.

 

[cjensen]

Hmm. $28K for an auto conversion putting out ~180 HP. A 180 HP parallel valve TMX IO-360 is around $22K. A TMX IO-390 putting out 210 HP is about $32K; what am I missing here?

$27,995.00 for a 180 hp engine?

That's all I've got to say.

First, let me preface this by saying that I DID NOT post this as a potential customer of theirs. I am an Eggenfellner customer, and this particular rotary package is not even on my radar. I'm just passing along some info that I got from an article I read today. Okay, now...

What you guys (and MANY others) are missing, or perhaps don't realize, is that the prices listed from this company and Eggenfellner are for FIREWALL FORWARD, less a prop. Your TMX IO-360 engine at $22k is JUST the engine and a few accessories. That's fine, but you will be spending another $4-5k in firewall forward components to mount it, and get it running.

All I'm saying (and I'll argue it all day long) is that NEITHER is cheaper than the other. They will cost about the same money to buy. $22,000 for 180hp IO-360 is the price for a new engine, but don't forget if comparing FWF to FWF, you have to include all the other stuff that goes with it to get your 180 horses running.



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[SteinAir]

Here's what really gets me confused time and time again with companies like this. They may be brilliant engineers, but they've got to be the dummest marketing people in the world. Ok, that may be a bit harsh as I don't even know the guy, and perhaps he is really smart, but....

I mean....a T-18 as a test case!??!? Don't get me wrong, it's a good plane and all, but how many of those are out there being built compared to RV's?? 1:100, 1:500 ?!?!?!

First deltahawk hangs and engine on a Velocity (and in the same stroke of genius decides to try and get the thing certified first), then ATP/Innodyn/whatever hangs one on a super cub, SMA picks a cessna, thielert picks a cessna, then these guys use a T18. Any person with half a business brain would pick the RV....anyday if for not other reason then PURE MARKET DEMOGRAPHIC! It doesn't take a MBA or marketing Phd to figure out that 99% of the available market is RV's....I guess I must be missing something here.

Just my 2 cents as usual!

Cheers,
Stein.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

You're entitled to your opinion

Not to be contrary, but how are they going to have "many customer built RV's with their FWF" to compile data if everyone waits? You advise people not to go an alternative engine route until the fleet has many thousands of hours on hundreds of customer installs, but just how is a company going to get those hours?

I never said 100's of customers or 1000's of hours, sorry you making up buddy.

Do we expect them to give away free engines to the first 100 customers? I mean, come on George, someone had stick their neck out there and install the first Lycoming, right? PJ Seipel RV-10 #40032

Again you're putting words into my mouth. I've been in and around Alt-Engines for 20 years. No where did I criticize the the engine or say Lycoming anything.

P.S. I have a Lycoming on the front of my RV-10, but I don't understand why we're so quick to poo-poo the guys who want to experiment.

Poo-poo? Right, just saying be careful, and it's not a good value. Sue me.

I'm not going to get into a urination match with your nit picking and inserting words that are not there. If you're looking for a fight, I don't care enough, but please feel free to tell everyone what you think. If you are going to criticise me or anyone, just at least quote them properly.

It's a new company, which frankly is just re-selling RWS parts at a markup. My point is go get RWS parts and cut the middle man out. People have lost money with new "engine" companies. $30,000 is A LOT OF MONEY! However, at the price and what you get I'm sure they will deliver. Heck, if they can sell a $3,000 wankel, PSRU and a few assorted parts in a partial engine kit for $30,000, I might get into that business.

BTW, PJSeipel what is your point, besides hating on me? Next time you have an attitude about my post, send me a private email; than you can tell me what you really think; just try to get your facts straight and make a point please.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

I am turned off as well

from their FAQ: I don't know about you guys, but this is a turn off for me. You'd have to haul the oil, hoping it doesn't make a mess in the airplane, make sure you remember to add the oil after filling the tanks, keep a measuring device handy, etc.

I am with you. This is a turn off and they use lots of oil. My friend has an RX8, and yes it gets bad gas mileage and uses oil. Wankel guys say its no big deal. You can install an injector to do the work, but it adds weight and you still need to fill the oil tank frequently. On a long X-C flight you need to bring extra oil. I hesitate bringing up Lycs, but I typically go through a little over a quart every 25 hours with a 360.

Also the claimed 180HP? More like 160HP at the prop. Just telling the truth PJSeipel. People should have the facts and not the hype. Even Tracy's own RV-4 races in the 160HP class. What does that tell you.

 

[Pilottonny]

Do not forget Mistral !

This is not the only FWF rotary package becoming available!! Mistral from Switzerland have a 2 rotor (190 / 230 hp) and a 3 rotor (300 / 360 hp) rotary engine, which are actually flying. http://www.mistral-engines.com/

I had a long talk with the CEO: Francois Badoux, at Aero Friedrichshafen.

Although the installed weight of these engines is the same as a Lycoming with the same power, this is not some Auto conversion! It is build for aviation use: they are certifying these engines, with double electronic ignition, double electronic fuel injection, double fuel pumps and double Fadec controls. They use ceramic seals and their goal is a 4.000 hr. TBO.

The 230 hp turbo version is flying in their Arrow III in the USA. There is an RV builder installing one in an RV8. A major aircraft manufacturer is testing a twin with two 190 hp engines,??. and so on (so you see, this is not a copy of the Innodyn story).

Also Mistral are looking to compile a FWF kit for the 6 and 7, by the end of this year. There is really not going to be a lot to it, because the engines come over complete, standard, with all the accessories, cable loom, pumps, FADEC?s, EMS, etc. and they fit the Dynofocal 1 engine mount. All you need is a new cowl and some brackets to attach the coolers.

A certified 190 hp engine, with all of the above mentioned parts included, for $ 31.500,- that can officially run on Avgas as well as on Mogas, where are you going to find that? An IOX-360 Lyclone with double electronic ignition, FWF kit and the Fuel pump kit from Vans and the cheapest EMS on the market, is a lot more expensive than that! (and still no FADEC, or double injection and pumps!) I would have ordered it straight away, if it would not be that it has to much HP for my 9A and the weight is that of an O-360.

Mistral were at Osh last year and they will be again this year. Actually they are right next to Vans! Go and see them.

Oh,? and George,? please, I do not want to get into a discussion about this Supplier,? their engines,? the turbo,... the fuel consumption,? whether FADEC is use full or not,? the rotary versus the Lycoming,? Mogas versus Avgas,? etc? etc? Just wanted to let everybody know what options there are. Thanks, PilotTonny.

 

[PJSeipel]

BTW, PJSeipel what is your point, besides hating on me?

I'm not hating on you. I asked what I thought was a simple question, and yes I used some exageration to make my point. Okay, bad idea, I won't do it ever again.

Here's what you said before you edited your post:

I HIGHLY recommend that interested people wait, in my opinion and recommendation, to wait until they have many customer built RV's with there FWF and get some data.

Let me re-state my question without any exageration and using your words: how are they supposed to get data on many customer RV's if your first response is to HIGHLY recommend people stay away from them? Frankly I agree with you that it may not be the best engine for an RV, that they're overpriced, and that they may be overstating their performance. Those are good reasons to not like their package. The fact that they're new is a poor reason not to like their package, and is what I took away from your first post on the subject. If that was incorrect, then I appologize for misunderstanding.

PJ Seipel
RV-10 #40032

 

[Jconard]

They should buy an rv, kit or complete. Then they should install their package on that rv, while documenting all the steps. Then when the package, really is a package, they should go fly a detailed test flight plan, in hot weather and cold weather etc.

After all of this they should sell the package. The market does not need another "package" whic although its claims to be tested, has a mysterious meltdown, and becomes a prototype.....

And, no offense chad, but you can easily get a lycoming installed for less than $4k FWF, probably half that.

But when you are counting install costs, do not leave out duel electric pumps, batteries, relays, a pair of $100 four pole double throw switches just for the automatic fuel system, etc...

Installing a lycoming, with similar in plane performance, will cost much less. In an RV7, you could install a simple carbureted, mag fired, O-320, with a hydraulic prop, and get the same speed for fuel burn or better, and at hundreds of pounds lighter, than your H-6.

The above based on following this through my building time, perhaps your install will be the first to avoid the above.....doubt that it will, but for your sake I hope it does.

As to some of the other stuff that's popping up related to Fadec etc....I struggle to understand how replacing one bowden cable with a red knob on one end and a heim joint on the other, with 10 pounds of wire, a handful of mission critical relays, and a software driven computer is "simplifying" the plane.

As I have said before, I will consider these in a future for another project, but only if they are cheaper, lighter, less complex, and with better numerical performance on a speed/fuel burn basis.

Until then I await verifyable data from people who have built and who currently fly these things.

 

[cjensen]

And, no offense chad, but you can easily get a lycoming installed for less than $4k FWF, probably half that.

None taken, but show me. Exhaust alone will run $1700 or so for Vetterman or similar. That's almost half of it right there. My $4-5k figure was strickly speaking of using Van's FWF kit, which has been discussed at length here. The general consensus was that using their kit or piece-mealing it, it would cost about the same. I would love to be corrected on this, because I don't want to speak about something I'm wrong about.

But when you are counting install costs, do not leave out duel electric pumps, batteries, relays, a pair of $100 four pole double throw switches just for the automatic fuel system, etc...

Dual electric pumps are included...at least in the Eggenfellner package...
You need batteries and relays for the Lyc as well, so that's a wash. The fuel system will add some cost. Believe me when I say that I've considered ALL parts and pieces that would be needed to get either engine running. I have a very good source available to me downstairs...our maintenance department.

In an RV7, you could install a simple carbureted, mag fired, O-320, with a hydraulic prop, and get the same speed for fuel burn or better, and at hundreds of pounds lighter, than your H-6.

Agreed 98%. BUT, your way off in comparison here. A mag fired, carb'd O-320 is a far cry from the H-6. These two engines simply can't be compared to each other. One is 160hp, the other is 200hp. One is mag fired, the other electronic. One is carb'd, the other fuel injected. The H6 has already proven to be as fast as an O-360 with the same fuel burn.

The other 2% I won't agree on is "hundreds of pounds lighter." The H6 IS heavier, but not by hundreds of pounds. That's simply not true. The H6 is about 50-60 pounds heavier than an O-320, 25 pounds heavier than an O-360, and 10-15 pounds heavier than an angle valve.

The above based on following this through my building time, perhaps your install will be the first to avoid the above.....doubt that it will, but for your sake I hope it does.

Me too!

As to some of the other stuff that's popping up related to Fadec etc....I struggle to understand how replacing one bowden cable with a red knob on one end and a heim joint on the other, with 10 pounds of wire, a handful of mission critical relays, and a software driven computer is "simplifying" the plane.

It's not at all. It is simplifying flying the airplane though. No mixture to mess with since it's all set for you depending on conditions. I don't like trying to figure all that out...I do it enough at my day job.

As I have said before, I will consider these in a future for another project, but only if they are cheaper, lighter, less complex, and with better numerical performance on a speed/fuel burn basis.

Until then I await verifyable data from people who have built and who currently fly these things.

Well, that remains to be seen. I will verify everything I find, whether it's higher, lower, better, or worse.



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[rv6ejguy]

I've noticed than most alternative engine posts quickly generate plenty of debate. Must be lots of people interested in alternative engines or they just like to watch the show here!

Thanks Chad for posting the interesting link and it's something we can watch in the future.

 

[cjensen]

This is not the only FWF rotary package becoming available!! Mistral from Switzerland have a 2 rotor (190 / 230 hp) and a 3 rotor (300 / 360 hp) rotary engine, which are actually flying. http://www.mistral-engines.com/

You are absolutely right Tony. I shouldn't have said the only one becoming available. I talked to Francois about a year ago, and things seem to be going well for them. According to their website, though, the FWF stuff if still in development, and will add to the already staggering price of $31,500 USD for the 190hp two rotor.

I think they have a winning engine package coming together, and with a couple of years of flying the Arrow, they are on track, and proving it.



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[SvingenB]

As to some of the other stuff that's popping up related to Fadec etc....I struggle to understand how replacing one bowden cable with a red knob on one end and a heim joint on the other, with 10 pounds of wire, a handful of mission critical relays, and a software driven computer is "simplifying" the plane.

I agree 100%. A common answer is that the car-industry have used ECUs for years, decades even, and it is therefore the way to go. But what nobody seem to ask is why they use ECUs, because it will definitely not simplify the engine, and has absolutely no effect on how cars are driven (except F1). Emmision control over a wide rpm and load ranges, and flexibility in performance characteristics for the same mass produced units are key factors. I don't see how those factors can be directly related to GA aircraft engines.

 

[rv6ejguy]

FADECs are slowly coming into more widespread use in GA. I see Diamond's new Superstar has a FADEC controlled, twin turbo Conti 550. I think these do make sense with upscale models using $55K engines. People will in fact expect it on $300-500K airplanes. This is 2007, not 1957 after all.

 

[Mike S]

Emission control over a wide rpm and load ranges, and flexibility in performance characteristics for the same mass produced units are key factors. I don't see how those factors can be directly related to GA aircraft engines.

AND, gov mandated fuel economy standards-----------------and surprisingly it has worked--------although there were a few "growing pains".

EGAD!!!! here I am sounding like I am for gov telling industry what to do.

As to these factors being directly related to GA,-------- I would submit that an aircraft engine designed with full electronic ignition, and electronic fuel management, controlled by a cpu programed to optimize performance in an aircraft enviornment, will out perform an engine with mags and carb or mechanical f/i and a pilot in control.

The real question as I see it is one of trade offs. Cost, weight, complexity, and reliability are the driving factors here.

And of course, restrictive gov regulations-----------there, I feel better.

Mike