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Poor workmanship, age, or normal wear?

M

msheen

I'm New Here
Hi all,

I'm looking to join the Vans club by purchasing an RV-9, but was a bit concerned by a recent RV-9 I looked at. See attached photos. Does this represent damage, poor workmanship, age, or normal wear? Does the cowling need to be repaired? Does dimpling of rivets around the N number occur with normal use or is this something I should be concerned about?

1995 (EDIT: 2005) completion date and only 60hrs Total Time AF. The offered price is below much of what I see here on VAF, probably because of this condition.

Thanks for taking a look and giving your thoughts.

Mark
Snowflake, AZ
 

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Welcome to VAF

phloidtrout said:
This is poor workmanship.
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Yep. At the first couple photos I thought it might be a repair with poor workmanship------but the third photo really shows the same issues.

This is NOT representative of the typical quality of RV.

By the way, Mark ---welcome aboard the good ship VAF :D
 
This one looks like it has problems, and may be the reason it has been a hangar queen.

Vic
 
If what you see on the outside is this bad ... imagine what's buried beneath ... hard pass!
 
Don't walk away from this one! RUN RUN RUN for your life, that's a lot of years for no real hours. Nothing about the details shared give me anything but fear for a potential buyer. Stuff like this worries me, there are too many buyers that would buy some story and skip a pre-buy for a GREAT Deal... LOL
 
Poor workmanship

It’s been sitting around in Florida. Probably a bad engine also.
 
Engine usage

Hopefully the OP understands how destructive it is letting an engine sit idle for prolonged periods. If I can't fly my airframe at least every 2 weeks, I ask someone to take it up for me for an hour or two. Even 2 weeks makes me nervous.
 
Workmanship

That breaks my heart. Someone built an airplane and never got an opinion. Makes me sad.
 
msheen said:
1995 completion date and only 60hrs Total Time AF. The offered price is below much of what I see here on VAF, probably because of this condition.
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We need to clarify. FAA registration lists it is a 2005 RV-9 which makes sense because the RV-9 wasn't even a gleam in an engineer's eye in 1995.

But in any case, unfortunately the workmanship is very poor in the photos.
 
Looks like a rehab project that might be save-able by the right, skilled hands. That canopy to skin fiberglass transition could be sanded down and corrected. But the riveting on the fuselage is a bad sign for the rest of the airplane. So sad, she hardly even got to fly...
 
Looks like some sort of doubler was spliced in forward of the canopy? The cracking of the canopy fairing is a no-go. Also I see some questionable rivet edge distances on that splice strip.
Definitely walk away.
 
Agree with previous assessments. It’s obvious the builder had no previous experience with a rivet gun, but we must give him credit for making the effort. Think of how few of us in society can say we built an airplane. He is one of us, despite the shortcomings of his efforts.

Perhaps the OP should be considering the biplane as seen in the background of one pic. From what can be observed, it looks pretty nice.
 
That looks horrendous I would run as fast as you can there are far far better examples around.

As others have said if that is the outside I dread to think what disasters lurk underneath.
 
EEEEkkkkkkk

Sportquattro said:
That looks horrendous I would run as fast as you can there are far far better examples around.
As others have said if that is the outside I dread to think what disasters lurk underneath.
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King Arthur (from Monte Python and the Holy Grail): RUN AWAY!! RUN AWAY!!:eek:
 
painless said:
Agree with previous assessments. It’s obvious the builder had no previous experience with a rivet gun, but we must give him (HER) credit for making the effort. Think of how few of us in society can say we built an airplane. He (SHE) is one of us, despite the shortcomings of his efforts.

Perhaps the OP should be considering the biplane as seen in the background of one pic. From what can be observed, it looks pretty nice.
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Corrections are in bold italic.
 
Are there more pictures we can look at to see if it’s just the top skins that are buggered up or the entire airplane?

It could be a fixer upper bought for a great deal or it may be a total loss not worth the effort.

Inquiring minds want to know.

More pictures please.
 
I tip my hat to anyone that actually completes a homebuilt airplane. It is a task that 95%+ of the population would never dare start, much less finish.
All, or most, were built by individuals, and the quality can be all over the place. I have seen examples that there is no way I would leave the ground in, others that are ugly, but otherwise okay. Sometimes one or more areas will be exemplar, and others less so (wiring, paint, etc.)
As you have found out yourself, you have to subscribe heavily to "buyer beware" and assume nothing.
Good luck with your search, and ask for lots of photos before committing to a trip, or plopping down money. When you see the right one, or at least a candidate, you'll know.

Try to look past the things that are easy to change (paint, panel, interior) and focus on the quality of the work and systems.

On the OP one, you can see things right off the bat that should give you pause. (I agree it looks like an air hammer or 3X gun on high pressure was used for riveting). it is sad that no one was consulted to correct the course.

and then....(on the flightline at SnF 2007 no less)...and yeah, it was consistent...
 

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;0000 said:
Comments like these really rub me the wrong way. Are you implying that if the builder was male, the plane would have been built properly?
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A prefect example of reading something that's not there.......:rolleyes:
 
painless said:
Agree with previous assessments. It’s obvious the builder had no previous experience with a rivet gun, but we must give him credit .
Click to expand...

In reality, probably 95% of the people that have built RVs had no previous experience with a rivet gun when they started. That in itself isn’t a reasonable explanation for poor riveting workmanship.
Getting a good result is all about how the process is approached and what outside input and or training is obtained.
This type of workmanship is typically connected with the type of personality that wasn’t interfacing with other like minded people.
 
Educate me about over-driven rivets:
Is it possible this is over-dimpling more than over-driving?

It’s always been hard for me to tell over-dimpling from under-dimpling, though I know a bad dimple when I see it. Although now I wonder if some of what I’ve thought was bad dimples was bad rivets.
 
maxmirot said:
Dam,

That's worst looking RV I have ever seen. It gives dumpster fires and trainwreaks a bad name.
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There is a ramp queen 8A on my field that I think is as bad as this one or worse. It hasn't flown, I doubt it ever will. It's tempting to share some pics but that seems like bad juju.
 
Over-dimpling

StuBob said:
Educate me about over-driven rivets:
Is it possible this is over-dimpling more than over-driving?

It’s always been hard for me to tell over-dimpling from under-dimpling, though I know a bad dimple when I see it. Although now I wonder if some of what I’ve thought was bad dimples was bad rivets.
Click to expand...

Very difficult to over dimple. I hit my C-Frame twice per gole really hard with a 2lb dead blow. Went through four hammers over the build.
Very easy to under dimple. Too light a hit or a misadjusted DRDT and the surface looks like a bad case of acne. Dished surface at every hole.
Most likely it's under dimpling or a very aggressive rivet gun setting. Too high pressure or too big a gun.

That's what makes me sad on this one. An hour with a Mentor would have made a difference. My Mentor taught me how to dimple and rivet. I was lost. My tool box looked just like that.
 
Access panel?

Is that an access panel in front of the canopy? It does not look structurally sound at all! Screws attach on only two sides, and to what? My understanding is that the integrity of that skin is important to the structural integrity of the front fuselage.

Of course now there is an approved access panel kit, but it is nothing like that.
 
Michael Burbidge said:
Is that an access panel in front of the canopy? It does not look structurally sound at all! Screws attach on only two sides, and to what? My understanding is that the integrity of that skin is important to the structural integrity of the front fuselage.
Of course now there is an approved access panel kit, but it is nothing like that.
Click to expand...

I think what you're seeing there is a cover plate where the canopy hinge is. i.e. Not structural!
 
Maybe. The hinge slots are only about 2 inches long. Hard to tell from this picture, but the cover certainly extends way further than 2 inches.

Something to check on if the OP is considering a purchase.
 
Gun pressure (or type of gun) was set too high. Bucking bar was not firmly pressed to the shop side of the rivet. Or, gun triggered too long. Or all of the above. Can't really tell without seeing both sides of the rivet.

The net result is to drive/stretch the skin inward while driving the rivet. It is highly likely the rivets are over driven as well.
 
Regarding the canopy forward fiberglass fairing layup ... if that delaminates you could have a serious problem in flight including the canopy possibly leaving the aircraft and probably taking the vertical stab and rudder with it.

I'm curious who signed the aircraft off.
 
N8DAV8R said:
There is a ramp queen 8A on my field that I think is as bad as this one or worse. It hasn't flown, I doubt it ever will. It's tempting to share some pics but that seems like bad juju.
Click to expand...
Oh man, now I wanna see pics of it; blur/hide the N number and share…
 
jbDC9 said:
Oh man, now I wanna see pics of it; blur/hide the N number and share…
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Why would you want photos of terrible workmanship eternally archived to VAF and our community?

Twenty years ago there was an RV-6 in our area that routinely appeared at our local breakfasts. We good-naturedly referred to it as the world's ugliest RV, told him to park it away from our planes. :)

It was ugly...brushed on primer covering gobs of bondo and surface irregularities. However, the scab had an IO-360, a full-featured analog IFR panel and an oxygen system. It had flown cross-continent at high altitude multiple times and was owned by a professional pilot who was building an RV. His intentions were to transplant the engine and avionics into the new airframe when the time came. He and the plane moved out of our area and I lost track of it. Looks can be deceiving.
 
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Sam Buchanan said:
Why would you want photos of terrible workmanship eternally archived to VAF and our community?

Twenty years ago there was an RV-6 in our area that routinely appeared at our local breakfasts. We good-naturedly referred to it as the world's ugliest RV, told him to park it away from our planes. :)

It was ugly...brushed on primer covering gobs of bondo and surface irregularities. However, the scab had an IO-360, a full-featured analog IFR panel and an oxygen system. It had flown cross-continent at high altitude multiple times and was owned by a professional pilot who was building an RV. His intentions were to transplant the engine and avionics into the new airframe when the time came. He and the plane moved out of our area and I lost track of it. Looks can be deceiving.
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Respectfully, an unsafe build isn't the same as an ugly airplane. I don't think anyone has problems with ugly, it's the shoddy workmanship on the surface that makes one wonder if the wings are even attached properly.
 
bkervaski said:
Respectfully, an unsafe build isn't the same as an ugly airplane. I don't think anyone has problems with ugly, it's the shoddy workmanship on the surface that makes one wonder if the wings are even attached properly.
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I fully understand that point. As a Tech Counselor for over 20 years and an RVer for longer than that I've seen a wide range of workmanship especially given my introduction into RV-dom occurred back in the days when we had to "drill every hole". :)

I just find it interesting that airworthiness judgment has been passed on an aircraft that has only been seen in person by one contributor to this thread. While I would have no interest in flying the aircraft that started this thread there is a lot about it we don't know.
 
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bkervaski said:
Respectfully, an unsafe build isn't the same as an ugly airplane. I don't think anyone has problems with ugly, it's the shoddy workmanship on the surface that makes one wonder if the wings are even attached properly.
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And how do you know this is an unsafe build? Have you inspected it?

DARs don't "judge" on cosmetics. I've seen a lot of airplanes and many of them are not show planes. Yes, if it looks like this, We're going to inspect much deeper at the structure, but skin pulled in around the rivets doesn't necessarily mean it is unsafe.

Example: Someone noted that if the canopy came loose it would wreck the airplane. Do you know that the fiberglas fairing is the only method of attachment? When I built my -6 I had random pieces of formed angle under the fairing securing the canopy. Maybe this person did also.
 
Mel said:
And how do you know this is an unsafe build? Have you inspected it?

DARs don't "judge" on cosmetics. I've seen a lot of airplanes and many of them are not show planes. Yes, if it looks like this, We're going to inspect much deeper at the structure, but skin pulled in around the rivets doesn't necessarily mean it is unsafe.

Example: Someone noted that if the canopy came loose it would wreck the airplane. Do you know that the fiberglas fairing is the only method of attachment? When I built my -6 I had random pieces of formed angle under the fairing securing the canopy. Maybe this person did also.
Click to expand...

The pics certainly don't inspire confidence ...

Those canopy angle brackets aren't going to hold up in flight if air gets underneath the fairing and into the cockpit. That much pressure is going to rip them right out if the layup fails and there's a significant gap. The paints already pealing right along the seam which indicates something ain't quite right.

It's not the cosmetics, ugly is just fine, it's not a beauty contest, but it's the *REALLY* bad riveting/dimpling which is most certainly going to result in aluminum cracking.

And if the outside looks that bad, I can't imagine the inside being any better, where it counts.

Would you take your kid up in that plane? Asking for a friend :p
 
I just find it interesting that airworthiness judgment has been passed on an aircraft that has only been seen in person by one contributor to this thread. While I would have no interest in flying the aircraft that started this thread there is a lot about it we don't know.
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Thanks for that post Sam.

Once some very condescending comments posted here, what a pity for this very forum :(

I too have seen my share of poor workmanship over the years, and badly built RVs during my 17 visits to OSH, plus on some other parts of the planet...
The only one that was really bad was a -4 that was i.e. grounded by the FAA some years ago during what was then called Oshkosh.
Still, I would strongly refrain from any comment judged on just a couple of pictures, such as in this case...

To the OP Mark, ask someone knowledgeable in RVs to come with you, and inspect subject -9. A judgement as to build quality can be done quite quickly, and would permit to move on, or not. A couple of hours of inspection would reveal way more than posting pictures here.

In any case, good luck!
 
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