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Phase 1, limited Airports to land?

Untainted123

Untainted123

Well Known Member
This was previously being discussed here: https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=210888, but was closed since the discussion was going off the rails. I am wondering though, has there been any movement on this from the MIDO/FAA side?

I don't have a problem landing at a different airport for safety reasons and violating the Ops Lims for valid reasons, but I have been dealing with insurance in another matter and it makes me question: if I DID land at another airport in Phase 1 that wasn't on my list (for any reason, good, bad, ugly), AND something happened, insurance could claim I was operating outside my limits and not cover the incident.

I don't intend for this thread to re-litigate the other thread, just wondering if there has been any further information, news, discussions about removing this limitation from Phase 1.
 
I am more concerned about my butt arriving home safe and unharmed than I am about collecting an insurance claim.

I like flying out of one airport for test flight and not use other airports providing that fuel is reasonably priced and available. I do NOT want to transport fuel to the airport that I am operating out of.

In the past, the FSDO where the airplane is flying is required to approve the test flight area and the DAR must do what they say.
 
RV6_flyer said:
In the past, the FSDO where the airplane is flying is required to approve the test flight area and the DAR must do what they say.
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Exactly, which is why Vic mentioned that is being brought up "front and center" approx. 9 months ago, which seems like sufficient time to at least ask for a status report, even if it's "still working on it".

Once again, not looking to re-litigate the why's and why not's you would or wouldn't want to land at an airport not listed in the Ops Lims Phase 1.
 
The OP raises a great question. I'm just wrapping up Phase 1 and I didn't realize that my airport list would be limited to a few specific fields until the DAR handed me my limitations. My Phase 1 area is huge, but I only have 4 airports listed within it, and they are all on one side of the test area and within 25 miles of each other. I have flown approaches into others (with a low approach / go around) not on the list to test IFR equipment and (don't tell anyone) but I may or may not have done a touch and go at a non-listed field once just to log cross country time.

I totally understand the need to restrict the test area - that's the whole point of testing before you are able to go somewhere meaningful. But I don't understand the point of a limited number of airports within that test area. There are a number of very long runways NOT on my list, but within my area, that are 45-60 minutes from my home field and could be useful for refueling or a bathroom or a sandwich during long test flights.
 
I wonder if the operating range limit is a bygone restriction from a long time ago. Modern kit planes are high performance machines capable of eating up long distances quickly. It would make sense to me to have a larger operating area and be able to land at a field with a long runway, especially in some areas of the West. Then again, maybe the DARS out there are able to take that into account.
 
coffeeguy said:
I wonder if the operating range limit is a bygone restriction from a long time ago. Modern kit planes are high performance machines capable of eating up long distances quickly. It would make sense to me to have a larger operating area and be able to land at a field with a long runway, especially in some areas of the West. Then again, maybe the DARS out there are able to take that into account.
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My Office is quite accommodating when it comes to flight test areas. I try to accommodate the applicant's request and as long as it is reasonable, I've never had one turned down. I try to give a reasonable size, depending on the speed of the aircraft and can work with special requests.

I think this is fairly common with most DARs.

The common request that I can't do is "a 2 mile wide corridor from home base to Oshkosh."
 
Mel said:
My Office is quite accommodating when it comes to flight test areas. I try to accommodate the applicant's request and as long as it is reasonable, I've never had one turned down. I try to give a reasonable size, depending on the speed of the aircraft and can work with special requests.

I think this is fairly common with most DARs.

The common request that I can't do is "a 2 mile wide corridor from home base to Oshkosh."
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Thank you for that note - but what's up with the limits on airports? My test area is huge. More than I could ask for. No complaints. But my limitations list four airports in that test area. Why have a giant test area with dozens of airports, and limit the landing spots to so few?

And, second, what if I was to land at some other field and I get caught by someone official? Let's say the weather goes bad and my four listed airports are poor. Or I just want to stretch my legs or get gas. I land somewhere else, and I draw the unlucky card and get a ramp check. Am I in trouble?
 
AlpineYoda said:
And, second, what if I was to land at some other field and I get caught by someone official? Let's say the weather goes bad and my four listed airports are poor. Or I just want to stretch my legs or get gas. I land somewhere else, and I draw the unlucky card and get a ramp check. Am I in trouble?
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This scenario is what prompted wanting an update to (seemingly) new airport restrictions in Phase 1. Like many things in FAA land, it comes down to self-policing, and the real teeth of enforcement is in insurance coverage.

I would guess you are very unlikely to be ramp-checked, and if so, with a good explanation, probably just get a scolding. But if you happen to taxi into a runway light, or have a fuel truck bang into you, is insurance going to cover it since you were outside your Ops Lims?

To the comment about saving your hide vs an insurance claim, I can imagine there are scenarios where my wife would rather I died than have to cover the cost of another airplane without insurance :D (I jest)
 
FAA vs Insurance Co's

The insurance aspect of these issues probably concerns me the most. A few years ago, I friend at a gliding club insurance denied his claim because he was not the actual owner of a sailplane he purchased. Apparently, several owners back the owner had a lien from a bank that was bought by another bank and never released the lien. For some reason previous registrations went through but when the insurance company saw this denied his claim. I have found the FAA pretty accommodating in the last 5 years and a ramp check at an unapproved airport most likely would not be a serious offense. Working with FDOS's has been great. A previous phase 1 request I tried to get an airport that was ~2 miles outside my circumference included and the DAR explained to me that he could not approve that. I am not sure what the issue is approving airports within the circle and the 3-phase 1's I've had all airports where included. (All had 50 NM radius's) I'm hoping for the 10 to get 75 NM's, we will see.
 
My op limits

My op limits, lists one of the 5 airports as a private airport that I need permission to land at. Totally useless for me; it doesn't even have fuel. The one I requested is nearby and within the flight test area. I have no idea why they substituted the private airport.

It would sure have been nice to have had a conversation with the FSDO who told the DAR what to write....
 
Huh, my operating limitations just describe the region. They don't say anything about which airports I can land at. One of the reasons I picked my particular region was the abundance of airports and lack of populated areas in it.
 
Phase I

Like Drakes, mine here in Northern California was quite large and incorporated many airports in my area, just excluded any in populated areas. I could fly in much of the northern Sacramento Valley with probably a dozen more airports available. A very reasonable test area for an RV4. A friend who built a Lancer Legacy was given a corridor from his test airport to Grand Junction Colorado. This allowed him to fully test a very fast airplane over unpopulated area.
 
The FAA does not care about liens, they will register the aircraft with a bill of sale. When a tornado took out my 182 the insurance company found a lien and would not pay. I hired one of the many companies in Oklahoma City to clear the lien that was decades old. I got paid. Your friend screwed himself if he didn't do the same.
Banks are notorious for not clearing liens. Whenever buying a airplane GET A LIEN SEARCH, it costs about $50.
 
Guidance Changes…..

Not all Operatign Limitations packages are teh same - and often that is because they were issued under different versions of the FAA 8130.2 guidance document that inspectors (and DAR’s) have to use to issue them. In the past, a region was all that was defined. The current document requires a region plus a list of airports that are allowed to be used. The document gets revised every few years, and the EAA Government Affairs group and various committees and councils (like the HAC) make inputs. Sometimes, weird things end up in there (or getting taken out).

(For instance, due to what most say was a clerical error in an attempt to clean up the wording to some reference ,you can not currently license a motorglider! We had to license our recent build as an Airplane instead. Not a big impact, but annoying….)

Our most recent Ops Lims have a list of airports we can use in Phase 1 - the ops Lims I got for the little jet a little over four years ago (and all the airplanes before that) didn’t. Not a big deal - we don’t have that many airports in our area, so I just had them list all of them for the Xenos - all seven if I recall…..

So WHEN you got your Ops Lims makes a difference - as does the fact that some DAR’s don’t keep up with the latest documentation, and might issue Ops Lims that aren’t up to the latest standards. And remember, if an Inspector or DAR issues something “in error”, that doesn’t make it right - it can be rescinded if a higher authority finds out (and decides to make a deal of it).
 
Surprised to hear about this "list of airports thing" - mine came before that requirement (thank goodness!)

That said, FAR Part 91 applies:
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.​
The gray area might be "precautionary" versus "emergency" - for example, say you landed to check some anomaly in your engine readings. But I also believe that the insurance companies, as much as we may worry otherwise, aren't overly inclined to deny claims where there's a deviation that wasn't careless, reckless or criminal. Regardless, that'd be the last thing on my mind if such a situation came up.
 
rv6n6r said:
But I also believe that the insurance companies, as much as we may worry otherwise, aren't overly inclined to deny claims where there's a deviation that wasn't careless, reckless or criminal. Regardless, that'd be the last thing on my mind if such a situation came up.
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I think everyone has a story where that is a mistaken belief. I myself am probably over insured, but insurance companies in general aren't in the habit of sorting through different types of sin: you are either flying legally in a legal airplane, conducting a legal flight, or you aren't. If you aren't, most policies are pretty clear that it's not covered.

It may be the last thing on your mind, but most here have made the argument that it shouldn't be on your mind at all, last or not. There's doesn't appear to be any (outside observer) reason for such a rule, but that is beside the point, the rule stands for Phase 1. Some have been "lucky" that theirs was done before whatever software the DAR's use automatically started enforcing what was actually a longstanding rule.

I was just hoping for an update from the DAR's around or scuttlebutt saying "We looked into it, we are keeping/amending/deleting the rule".

In absence of that, my follow up question is: how hard is it to amend/change the list of airports. Shortsightedly, my airports are on the four corners of my test area, which means all tests involving landings have to be at the home airport (which can be busy and is not representative of different testing requirements), or I have to fly 75 miles out to do them, which I don't prefer.
 
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