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Inexperience almost hurt me

sansoneservices

sansoneservices

Well Known Member
Embarrassing but possibly could help a new pilot. 3yrs ago I was on a cross country and landed early due to clouds and the ceiling sinking. Spent the night on the couch (pilot lounge) and when the manager showed up for work he stated the cloudy low ceiling was very thin and recommended I punch through it. Well this was a very small airport out west, 8am, and after calling for traffic stupidly I took-off and began to punch through. Seemed like an eternity, noticed altitude was dropping not increasing??? A quick look at the attitude indicator showed the wings had slowly banked until the altitude started sinking. Quickly leveled the wings and returned to the small airport feeling like a dumbass. What stood out most to me after landing (besides stupidity) was that I had zero sensation of the slow banking or slow decent.
 
I always fly on autopilot. Always. Except for final.Otto does much better then me. I have 12 computers on board, might as well usethem .

For example, crossing the continental divide on my way to osh last year i was on otto at 17.5k and using the heading knob to steer between the clouds mainting vfr. Worked out well and would not have been an issue if i got into ifr by accident.
 
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That manager gave you REALLY BAD ADVICE. Simply irresponsible to suggest to any pilot that they press on. If something inside your own gut is telling you something... listen to it. Ask yourself how many times in your whole life has your gut been wrong. In my case, never. Glad you made it through this and shared your experience with others. Only way those with less experience can learn.
 
I don't know what to say here... if anyone's private pilot training didn't beat into them the the danger of IMC without the proper training and ratings, that flight school and/or CFI should be shut down.
 
I punched up through a marine layer at an uncontrolled field once. I knew it to be thin and probably not extending very far inland after ducking under the same layer and following the railroad tracks in the day before. When I taxied in, everbody who was sitting on the picnic tables waiting for it to lift ran to their airplanes and departed. So the next morning I was the one sitting on the picnic table talking about it with a Cessna driver. He decided to launch and I idled at the end until he called me back and reported breaking out. I stayed well clear of the centerline in case somebody was trying to get in and watched my AH like a hawk. It seemed to take a long time, but was probably less than a couple of minutes til breakout. Perhaps not the smartest thing I've ever done, but far from the stupidest. ;-(

Ed
 
Robin8er said:
Good decisions are based on experience. You get experience from making bad decisions .
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If you live to make those good decisions.

As a new pilot, there is a HUGE difference between flying with and instructor, under the hood, simulating instrument flying and going into actual IMC without an instructor on board.

If you want to "just punch through", do yourself a favor and actually GET the instrument rating...and then stay current. The life you save may be your own.
 
For anyone who thinks that airport manager gave good advice, please try not to kill me. I’ve had at least two fairly close calls while flying ifr ‘in the system’ with near collisions with aircraft who were definitely not in VMC. And, my pre-retirement employer used to allow the use of private aircraft on business trips. That ended when a non-instrument pilot was flying in and out of the clouds, ‘for fun’. Unfortunately he hit an air force tanker in one of those clouds. A bunch of dead people, no more business flying for any employee. These types of actions do affect others, as well as yourself.
 
sansoneservices said:
Embarrassing but possibly could help a new pilot. 3yrs ago I was on a cross country and landed early due to clouds and the ceiling sinking. Spent the night on the couch (pilot lounge) and when the manager showed up for work he stated the cloudy low ceiling was very thin and recommended I punch through it. Well this was a very small airport out west, 8am, and after calling for traffic stupidly I took-off and began to punch through. Seemed like an eternity, noticed altitude was dropping not increasing??? A quick look at the attitude indicator showed the wings had slowly banked until the altitude started sinking. Quickly leveled the wings and returned to the small airport feeling like a dumbass. What stood out most to me after landing (besides stupidity) was that I had zero sensation of the slow banking or slow decent.
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I say, you were experienced enough to realize the situation you had got yourself into and willing to fix that, for that kudos to you.
 
PilotjohnS said:
I always fly on autopilot. Always. Except for final.Otto does much better then me. I have 12 computers on board, might as well usethem .

For example, crossing the continental divide on my way to osh last year i was on otto at 17.5k and using the heading knob to steer between the clouds mainting vfr. Worked out well and would not have been an issue if i got into ifr by accident.
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Autopilot is our friend, a tool, and very useful but it is not a tool to put it on and forget about it. Once I was flying over glacier national part on a sight seen flight (absolutely an unfriendly place for a emergency landing) and somehow got caught in a downdraft that my RV7A could not keep altitude and at some points we were losing altitude at 2500 fpm at full power. My A/P was engaged and if I was hand flying it, I would have noticed the situation much sooner. It was one of the scariest time I have had flying. On XCountry trips which I used the A/P all the time once in a while I disengage to make sure nothing funny is going on with the flight controls.
 
I don't understand this. If you are Instrument rated, current, and prfecient AND your plane is propertly equiped, why didn't you just file, punch through, and cancel IFR? No other opinions of the weather needed.

But if any of those preconditions are not met I wouldn't let Christ Amighty talk me off the ground. Pilot or passenger!
 
sansoneservices said:
Embarrassing but possibly could help a new pilot. 3yrs ago I was on a cross country and landed early due to clouds and the ceiling sinking. Spent the night on the couch (pilot lounge) and when the manager showed up for work he stated the cloudy low ceiling was very thin and recommended I punch through it. Well this was a very small airport out west, 8am, and after calling for traffic stupidly I took-off and began to punch through. Seemed like an eternity, noticed altitude was dropping not increasing??? A quick look at the attitude indicator showed the wings had slowly banked until the altitude started sinking. Quickly leveled the wings and returned to the small airport feeling like a dumbass. What stood out most to me after landing (besides stupidity) was that I had zero sensation of the slow banking or slow decent.
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There's an old saying, "The regulations are written in blood." Going into IMC when not IFR is a violation and a safety hazard to yourself and others. I have run across this several times when IFR. Once I received an ATC traffic callout of a non-IFR aircraft in solid clouds. Another time I landed after a long cross country in the clouds, and while fueling up another pilot I was chatting with admitted to me he had just come the same route non-IFR.
 
sansoneservices said:
Embarrassing but possibly could help a new pilot. 3yrs ago I was on a cross country and landed early due to clouds and the ceiling sinking. Spent the night on the couch (pilot lounge) and when the manager showed up for work he stated the cloudy low ceiling was very thin and recommended I punch through it. Well this was a very small airport out west, 8am, and after calling for traffic stupidly I took-off and began to punch through. Seemed like an eternity, noticed altitude was dropping not increasing??? A quick look at the attitude indicator showed the wings had slowly banked until the altitude started sinking. Quickly leveled the wings and returned to the small airport feeling like a dumbass. What stood out most to me after landing (besides stupidity) was that I had zero sensation of the slow banking or slow decent.
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Hi, I assume you were VFR ? I met a guy who was a low hr pilot who just bought an RV 7 it was a well equiped VFR Aircraft. Neither he or his aircraft were IFR rated. He was flying in marginal weather one day & climed up through a “ sucker hole” after he got on top the hole closed & the cloud also closed in around him. Here was a low hr pilot in a high performance aircraft In IMC ! He by all rights should not have survived but for one thing. He immediately called ATC , they instructed him to turn on his Autopilot ( which in his panic state he forgot about) & then talked him through what to do & vectored him to the nearest available airport. He was in IMC for 45 minutes !!! He told me that for the whole of the 45 minutes ATC put him on a discreet channel & talked to him to keep him calm. Unknown to him at the time was that ATC had declared an emergency & was diverting traffic to accommodate him. When he eventually broke out of cloud & landed he was greeted by flashing red lights at the airport ( emergency crews on standby) which was standard procedure for any emergency.
He never regained his confidence again after this episode & decided that flying was not for him & sold the aircraft. I think when I hear these stories I look back to when I was a low hr pilot & probably took the same type of risks, I now have 12000 hrs without any major dramas & am far more conservative than ever. The old VFR mantra should be placarded on the panel “ it’s far better to on the ground wishing you were in the air ,than be in the air wishing you were on the ground “.
 
Paul 5r4 said:
That manager gave you REALLY BAD ADVICE. Simply irresponsible to suggest to any pilot that they press on. If something inside your own gut is telling you something... listen to it. Ask yourself how many times in your whole life has your gut been wrong. In my case, never. Glad you made it through this and shared your experience with others. Only way those with less experience can learn.
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World is literally filled with idiots. Sorry, but this one is on the pic. A good pilot must make good decisions if he/she expects to live long. Accepting advice from a stranger doesn’t really count as a decision.

Op, thanks for posting this! Learning from others mistakes is almost as good as learning from our own.
 
To add to the discussion an autopilot is not a substitute for being current and able to hand-fly the aircraft. The autopilot is a fantastic aide but if you are not comfortable flying without it some practice is warranted.
 
The other really stupid decision that our fellow pilots also make is to continue on their trip when they come across a solid layer. So, VFR on top seems to be acceptable with so many people, especially ones who have an autopilot and feel that they can "punch through" with the autopilot if it doesn't break up. Several years ago, I was in my RV7 headed to OSH. I ended up spending the night at an airport in Indiana due to some really bad storms. I did not have my IFR ticket back then and the RV7 was VFR.
The next morning I met a couple of guys at the airport who were also headed to OSH in an RV (I'm sure they are on this forum). We decided we would fly up together but I had said that weather still looked questionable to the North. We took off and about 30 minutes in to the flight we started going over a very solid layer. I continued for about 5 or 10 minutes but my gut was churning the entire team. I didn't want to "look stupid" and tell them I'm turning around. They said over the COMs that it wold "probably break up around Chicago" . . . Then logic kicked in... I thought to myself, I rather look stupid than look dead. I told them that I was turning around and hoped that I see them at the airshow. In my early years of flying I almost killed myself flying VFR into IMC and vowed to never make that mistake again. However, with a little peer pressure, I almost allowed myself to waste a lesson that I had learned a few years prior to that.

Glad you are okay. Go get your IFR ticket. You'll never regret your decision.
 
in the 80's soon after i soloed i showed up for my booked time with the airplane and ceilings were really low. one of the instructors said ''fly a low pattern''. so i did. on takeoff my passenger door popped open. by the time i had dealt with that i looked up and i was in the clouds. i managed to get below them and land safely. i parked the plane and couldn't get to my car and away from the airport fast enough. i had been totally terrified. i made myself go back the next day and fly again because i knew if i didn't i would never go back.
happy to say i have never scared myself in an airplane since. i try to listen to the little bird that sits on my shoulder and whispers ''i wouldn't do that''.
 
Sure seems like we'd be doing our fellow pilots a much greater service by talking about the times we made the no-go decision, than the times we launched, perhaps busted FARs (gee, let's talk about that on the internet ;)) , and made it by the skin of our teeth. Some have done the former here, some have done the latter. Honestly not judgin', as we all have stories about doing dumb@$$ stuff and learning valuable lessons. Not too many situations worse than being stuck in the clouds, with little or no capability to fly it or navigate it (pilot and/or plane), little or no concept of where terrain or other aircraft are, and the situation devolving rapidly. Not where I want to be!!

It's Ok to share the times we didn't go too, eh.

c1978, long solo X-C flight for my Private Pilot certificate. Supposed to go from Palo Alto, to Placerville, to Madera, to Palo Alto (NorCal). 1st leg good, then Madera socked in. 3 hours later, still waiting, out on the picnic bench with my sectional, planning what to do next, when the Aero Commander pilot flying prisoners came over and asked, "whatcha doin' kid?". Explained my sit-and-wait dilemma, and he patted me on the back and said, "good judgement kid". Now that was positive reinforcement!

45+ years and a flying career later, and having sat on the ground numerous times in my RV waiting for better Wx, was ferrying a new-to-me Bücker from SC to TX. Now using electronic charts, magenta lines and airport condition reports (red/blue/green circles) instead of paper sectionals...but the answer was still the same. Waited out Wx on 3 of the 4 days, and met new friends at each location. Had fun that was not planned, but well worth it!

Sometimes it's just good to hear that it's Ok to say no. Helps keep the scales loaded towards the "on the ground wishing I was flying" side, and away from the "in the air, wishing I was on the ground" side. ;)

Cheers,
Bob
 
I haven't yet had the opportunity to get my self into IMC inadvertently. Although my PPL check ride could have been called marginal VFR with low ceilings and intermittent snow squalls lol.

Since were fessing up to mistakes.... Somewhere around 18hrs total time, just after solo, I did get the little 152 into a spin while playing with stalls. From flying RC models I knew how to enter and stop spins. Just didn't know planes could spin themselves if you let them haha. Needless to say I now know.
 
PilotjohnS said:
I always fly on autopilot. Always. Except for final.Otto does much better then me. I have 12 computers on board, might as well usethem .
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Autopilot is great - until it's not. I've had my Garmin autopilot switch itself off at the most inconvenient times due to lost GPS signal, the dreaded "Miscompare," and a few other issues. Murphy's Law is just waiting for AP to spontaneously disengage in IMC (or worse yet in the middle of an approach at minimums), so I always like to be current with hand flying just in case.
 
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sansoneservices said:
Embarrassing but possibly could help a new pilot. 3yrs ago I was on a cross country and landed early due to clouds and the ceiling sinking. Spent the night on the couch (pilot lounge) and when the manager showed up for work he stated the cloudy low ceiling was very thin and recommended I punch through it. Well this was a very small airport out west, 8am, and after calling for traffic stupidly I took-off and began to punch through. Seemed like an eternity, noticed altitude was dropping not increasing??? A quick look at the attitude indicator showed the wings had slowly banked until the altitude started sinking. Quickly leveled the wings and returned to the small airport feeling like a dumbass. What stood out most to me after landing (besides stupidity) was that I had zero sensation of the slow banking or slow decent.
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Good for you, speaking up and admitting the mistake. That takes courage and wisdom! Keep up the good work on perfecting your piloting and safe flying! 😀
 
sansoneservices said:
I shared this story of a new pilot making a bad decision to help others not repeat my mistake. Peer pressure, inexperience, desire to persevere, all poor excuses for bad decisions. Lessons learned and shared.. thanks for posts void of chastisement
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Hope mine did not come across as chastising...not intended as such...more to show there's a flip side too. The airport manager gave a new pilot really bad advice, but you ultimately made the right call and got back on the ground safely. We do all have those lessons stored in the database...and the bruises from kicking ourselves after. ;)

Cheers,
Bob
 
rvmills said:
Hope mine did not come across as chastising...not intended as such...more to show there's a flip side too. The airport manager gave a new pilot really bad advice, but you ultimately made the right call and got back on the ground safely. We do all have those lessons stored in the database...and the bruises from kicking ourselves after. ;)

Cheers,
Bob
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Not at all 🤪
 
As this thread shows too well, if anyone in an aviation-related scenario is using the phrase “punch through,” someone is likely in mortal danger.

I’m reminded of an acquaintance who, many many years ago, told his passenger they could easily just “punch through” a line of thunderstorms. They were very, very lucky to survive what happened next.

Interesting factoid: G forces are capable of ripping off oxygen masks!
 
I am a reasonably new pilot- about 320 hours and the airport manager at Frankfort Indiana was the opposite that guy. KFKR. I was stuck their with my granddaughter coming back from Shreveport and the manager Nick Rasmussen offered me hangar space and a courtesy car for the night in weather that was not really that bad but closer to my home was not as good. He checked weather and called guys he knew at other airports along my path north to get reports.

If you ever are in the Indy area, I can highly recommend KFKR and the FBO - manager there. The next day I was able to get out and close to home but needed to spend another night in Holland MI - just 40 min from home. I wont mess with weather and that trip confirmed it.
 
Dugaru said:
As this thread shows too well, if anyone in an aviation-related scenario is using the phrase “punch through,” someone is likely in mortal danger.
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I store “punch through” together with “watch this!” and “hold my beer!” in the “there be dragons there!” section of my collection of aging neurons.
 
pjc said:
I store “punch through” together with “watch this!” and “hold my beer!” in the “there be dragons there!” section of my collection of aging neurons.
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"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

I've long held that there is no such thing as "IFR Lite". You either do, or you don't.
 
I took my basic med self assessment a couple of hours ago since I couldn't find my certificate and I figure more often than 2 years is fine.

One of the sections dealt with this specifically and called it "the leans" when you start turning and feel level. The recommendation was to trust your instruments over anything else. So, GREAT JOB for doing exactly that and getting back on the ground!
 
PandaCub said:
Autopilot is great - until it's not. I've had my Garmin autopilot switch itself off at the most inconvenient times due to lost GPS signal, the dreaded "Miscompare," and a few other issues. Murphy's Law is just waiting for AP to spontaneously disengage in IMC (or worse yet in the middle of an approach at minimums), so I always like to be current with hand flying just in case.
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My opinion on autopilot is: if you can't do it without autopilot, you don't get to use the autopilot. It's just my opinion I know, but I just feel like it is a great tool but some use it to cover up a lack of skill and knowledge. I fear it gives many a false sense of security and degrades ADM when you think you can get away with something questionable because the autopilot can fly it. If it's something I can't do without the autopilot, it's something I shouldn't be doing at all.
 
bob865 said:
My opinion on autopilot is: if you can't do it without autopilot, you don't get to use the autopilot. It's just my opinion I know, but I just feel like it is a great tool but some use it to cover up a lack of skill and knowledge. I fear it gives many a false sense of security and degrades ADM when you think you can get away with something questionable because the autopilot can fly it. If it's something I can't do without the autopilot, it's something I shouldn't be doing at all.
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every year when i go in for recurrent, i can tell in about 3 seconds if the person in the other seat is an autopilot junkie. it gets real fun when the check airman fails the autopilot on the turn to intercept the ILS with one shut down!
 
bob865 said:
My opinion on autopilot is: if you can't do it without autopilot, you don't get to use the autopilot.
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Agree completely (unless the chips are really down, obviously—any port in a storm).

With that said, it’s important not to underestimate the very real safety benefits provided by autopilots. Even highly proficient pilots can make deadly mistakes when task-saturated. Autopilots are very good at preventing that scenario.

Put another way: We surmise, no doubt correctly, that the presence of autopilots has lured complacent, unskilled pilots into trouble. But we’ll also never really know how many skilled pilots they’ve saved. I suspect there’s a good reason the FAA and the airlines like them so much.
 
Dugaru said:
Put another way: We surmise, no doubt correctly, that the presence of autopilots has lured complacent, unskilled pilots into trouble. But we’ll also never really know how many skilled pilots they’ve saved. I suspect there’s a good reason the FAA and the airlines like them so much.
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Totally agree! Just because I can do it by hand, doesn't mean the autopilot can't do it better. I'll still let it fly me any day, as long as I know I can also do it when it fails.
 
bob865 said:
Totally agree! Just because I can do it by hand, doesn't mean the autopilot can't do it better. I'll still let it fly me any day, as long as I know I can also do it when it fails.
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This is the way.

My relevant personal mantras:

1. Train so that you can proficiently hand fly to minimums.
2. Also train with the autopilot, if installed.
3. Never fly in weather predicted to be anywhere near minimums.
4. A working autopilot is required equipment for any flight conducted at night or under IFR.
5. Other people can reasonably disagree with 3-4, but not with 1-2. 🤣

Number 3 is what I mean when I say I fly “light IFR only,” so for me it’s a meaningful phrase. I recognize weather could go to complete crap, and I’ve had that experience more than once, hence 1, 2, and 4.

Final thought: the availability of (relatively) cheap and incredibly capable autopilots is a hugely underrated advantage of experimental aircraft. This used to be an even bigger deal, back when $-Tec was the only option for many certified aircraft.
 
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Dugaru said:
This is the way.

My relevant personal mantras:

1. Train so that you can proficiently hand fly to minimums.
2. Also train with the autopilot, if installed.
3. Never fly in weather predicted to be anywhere near minimums.
4. A working autopilot is required equipment for any flight conducted at night or under IFR.
5. Other people can reasonably disagree with 3-4, but not with 1-2. 🤣

Number 3 is what I mean when I say I fly “light IFR only,” so for me it’s a meaningful phrase. I recognize weather could go to complete crap, and I’ve had that experience more than once, hence 1, 2, and 4.

Final thought: the availability of (relatively) cheap and incredibly capable autopilots is a hugely underrated advantage of experimental aircraft. This used to be an even bigger deal, back when $-Tec was the only option for many certified aircraft.
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I'm on board with all except partially #3. I do sometimes plan and fly a trip into weather close to minimums - but not without a lot of extra fuel to get a couple hundred nm away if needed for a solid alternate. Minimum fuel for me into weather is going to be large, I have the tankage for it and use it regularly. My normal plan would be to fill outboards with the fuel load expected to be burned enroute to the primary, arriving with full inboard standard tanks, arguably 4 hours of fuel for "Plan B".
 
airguy said:
I'm on board with all except partially #3. I do sometimes plan and fly a trip into weather close to minimums - but not without a lot of extra fuel to get a couple hundred nm away if needed for a solid alternate. Minimum fuel for me into weather is going to be large, I have the tankage for it and use it regularly. My normal plan would be to fill outboards with the fuel load expected to be burned enroute to the primary, arriving with full inboard standard tanks, arguably 4 hours of fuel for "Plan B".
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That seems reasonable. One reason I stick to "gentleman's IFR" is that I have only the standard tanks in my -9A. Extra fuel is a big safety item for IFR flight.

I don't miss 115 knots, but I do miss the 48 gallons that my Warrior carried (with the same fuel burn). Not that this feature cured all problems. After I sold it, a pilot decided to run it dry on one tank and crash land with the other one still full. No injuries, fortunately. 😬
 
I taxied out the other day and turned around after my runup. Winds were 18G25, right down the runway.

COULD I do it? Yes. Would it be safe? Yes.

Would it be fun? NO.

I think alot of newer pilots are so enthralled with the utility of an airplane, that they make plans with friends to pick them up, meet them places, etc.. and are usually reluctant to cancel these "plans".
 
Happy New Year friends from the op. A new pilot recently shared a similar story while I was doing the annual on his c150. Being audience vs first-hand what stood out to me was the poor decision for a low time vfr pilot to fly through clouds. Punch through, I can do it, watch this, hold my beer, all can be your last words before meeting your maker. Re-reading my op I remember staring upward through the windshield hoping to see a blue sky appear, ignoring the instruments. IFR training exists for good reason. Lastly the desire to continue the cross country should never be part of the decision making process. Lesson learned
 
Regardless of anything else -- always revert to an instrument scan after loosing ground contact. Over the years, I have found "it's not if but when you inadvertently go into IMC", and when that happens, always revert to an instrument scan. Regardless if you're IFR certified or not, practice flying IMC in FS 2020 or 2024 on a regular basis, and if you lose ground contact, then immediately revert to your instrument scan until VFR conditions are reestablished. Don't feel bad this happened, just find a way to fix it if this happens again! (y):cool:(y)
 
RV-9erA said:
Regardless of anything else -- always revert to an instrument scan after loosing ground contact. Over the years, I have found "it's not if but when you inadvertently go into IMC", and when that happens, always revert to an instrument scan.
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I used to be one of those guys that said "I'll never do that, no self-respecting pilot that is paying attention would ever really let that happen."

I've been flying since '98, just over 3000 hours, I've done it twice legit accidental. The only thing I can gather from that is that I'm *MOSTLY* paying attention :cool:

The insurance companies and their actuarial tables are used and referenced for a reason - it's hard to beat statistics in the long run.
 
PilotjohnS said:
I always fly on autopilot. Always. Except for final.Otto does much better then me. I have 12 computers on board, might as well usethem .

For example, crossing the continental divide on my way to osh last year i was on otto at 17.5k and using the heading knob to steer between the clouds mainting vfr. Worked out well and would not have been an issue if i got into ifr by accident.
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The heading knob works great just in case!
 
Two things that can get you with inadvertent IMC is attempting to turn-around too steeply before or after entering IMC. Also, not realizing you lost "ground contact" while flying into smoke or low visibility. Autopilots are very nice in that they limit your turns to standard-rate, and they allow you to monitor situational awareness during IMC conditions. If you punch into a cloud attempting to turn-back while performing a steep-turn, once you reduce your turn-rate, you will find yourself in a climbing turn with airspeed bleeding-off. So, if you realize you're going IMC, simply maintain a standard-rate turn, and start scanning your instruments until you see blue sky!
 
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