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Fighter Pilots - Is the RV-8 really "fighter-like" in its handling?
- Thread starter inktomi
- Start date
I’m not a fighter pilot, so take this as second-hand…but Van once told me (with a wink) that the RV-8 flies the way people THINK the P-51 flies. (It doesn't - the P-51 is much heavier on the controls and in handling - but it sure exceeds the RV-8 in raw power!)
OK, so I'd like a few more HP (who wouldn't) and a little better roll rate, but if you truly want to fly the RV8 like a fighter, you won't be disappointed.
Depends what "fighter" you're comparing it to. Does it have the roll rate of an A-4? Not even close, but the cockpit is roomier. Does it have the raw power or maneuverability of a Hornet? Nope, but you can go vertical with it, for a short time. Does it land on boats? Nope, but it'd be fun to try.
I would probably compare it more to a T34C than any fighter I ever flew. I had a lot of fun flying T34's and I have just as much fun flying my -8. I can also do something those fighters could only do once, land on grass
And you really can’t beat the price. Vans isn’t like a defense contractor where they up the price by 50% every other month!
While climbing out of Corona to the French Valley airport, I got a ADSB warning and at my 8 oclock low, there was a P51 taking off from Chino. It was about 1000 feet to my left when it climbed past my altitude. I estimated it was climbing at ~3000ft/min. From the ADSB arrow, it was zipping along much faster than my RV8. I got a snapshot of the N-number on my EFIS or else people wouldn't believe it. This was my closest "formation flight" with a P51.
This is the same P51 and it had this same color scheme when I saw it.
Ah the urban legend of the A-4 roll rate.
>>Moderator Edit: Keeping the language suitable for "the polite company of strangers" per VAF posting rules.<<
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Ah the legend of the A-4 roll rate.
720*/sec ain't no legend. Apparently you've never flown an A4.
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I've not flown the turbine T-34C, but I have lots of hours in piston A/Bs. I think the RV-8 flies MUCH better than the T-34. Much more nimble and fun. The only thing I can't do in an RV-8 that I could in the T-34 was fly with the canopy open.Depends what "fighter" you're comparing it to. Does it have the roll rate of an A-4? Not even close, but the cockpit is roomier. Does it have the raw power or maneuverability of a Hornet? Nope, but you can go vertical with it, for a short time. Does it land on boats? Nope, but it'd be fun to try.
I would probably compare it more to a T34C than any fighter I ever flew. I had a lot of fun flying T34's and I have just as much fun flying my -8. I can also do something those fighters could only do once, land on grass
Point is the RV8 is not a fighter. I can't afford to buy let alone operate any of the military hardware I flew. The C model T34 was a sports car compared to the piston models. Just like I'm sure the new T6 is even better compared to a T34. For those who have never flown a high performance military fighter, the RV8 might be as close as they'll get, but it's not close at all. Never meant to be. Is it a blast to fly? Absolutely!
Does it fly like a fighter? Debatable. As others have said, depends on what "fighter" you're trying to compare it to. I will say it this: it flies like a fighter as much as any plane with a 180-200hp engine is going to for under $200K. Having flown fighters, I love it! The bubble canopy and tandem seating is awesome. Its snappy yet easy to fly. Aerobatics are fun and easy. Its great to fly formation with and we have some great little canyons here locally to fly low levels in and zip around at 100ft & 150kts. Its relatively fast and honestly its a great XC airplane being able to true out at 170kts+ and 9 gph or less with an actual useful load of luggage for two people for a long weekend .
Haha, the only "proof" of the existence of this 720 deg/sec roll rate is pilots saying "I banged my head on the canopy" during a roll. Funny how the T-38 has the exact same roll rate. The guys who wrote the manual on these two jets were having a bit of fun.
Totally agree. Its not a fighter, but its as close as many will get at a reasonable price. If you want a more "fighter-like" experience - sure you could buy a Gamebird or an Extra if you're willing to pay the $500-800K for one.
Like I said, you ain't ever flown one. Go read a NATOPS manual and you'll find your answer.
andoman
Well Known Member
Fly like a fighter? As mentioned: Not even close.
Feel like a fighter? Absolutely!
The RV TACMAN, when compared to its military equivalents, dictates a massive reduction in speeds, distances, and ranges. Nevertheless, the -3, -4, -8, and Rocket are indeed personal fighters. They are every bit as much fun as an F-5 or A-4.
Feel like a fighter? Absolutely!
The RV TACMAN, when compared to its military equivalents, dictates a massive reduction in speeds, distances, and ranges. Nevertheless, the -3, -4, -8, and Rocket are indeed personal fighters. They are every bit as much fun as an F-5 or A-4.
The manual haha. Yeah I know, same as the T-38. Like I said the guys writing the manuals were having a bit of fun. Apparently the videos are all classified.
Every Navy jet guy loved the A-4 (TA-4J in the training command). I took it as a personal challenge once, verifying that NATOPS advertised roll rate, while on a particular syllabus solo hop. Can't verify that it's "technically" accurate", but sure felt like it could be. One interesting cockpit design feature on the Scooter, with the 'pit being as tight as it was....The manual haha. Yeah I know, same as the T-38. Like I said the guys writing the manuals were having a bit of fun. Apparently the videos are all classified.
The stick, for pitch, was hinged as normal, on the floor. But for roll, the hinge point was about at the pilot's thigh level, with only say the stick grip, and a bit more, moving left/right to command a roll. In other words, it didn't take much stick movement to ask for that quick roll rate.
Doug
Seattle area
Close enough for fun.
Elmoron Air Force in action:
Elmoron Air Force in action:
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I might be able to contribute some actual TA-4J numbers here, acquired at USNTPS a very long time ago:
It's nowhere near 720 deg/sec, and there was a bit of response delay, but it certainly felt like a very snappy roll, particularly when sitting in the back seat waiting for the step input.
I'm hoping my RV-8 will be even more fun.
It's nowhere near 720 deg/sec, and there was a bit of response delay, but it certainly felt like a very snappy roll, particularly when sitting in the back seat waiting for the step input.
I'm hoping my RV-8 will be even more fun.
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I have about 850 hours in the RV-8 and about 1,400 hours in the F-16. Here are some points to ponder that might help to illustrate the differences and hopefully shed some light on answering your question:
- Short answer: the RV-8 is very responsive and a blast to fly, but it does not feel like a modern fighter like the F-16.
- The RV-8 gives you a tandem-seat vibe, stick and throttle are in the right places, great visibility, and a quick, direct response to inputs. It feels “alive” and eager, way more so than certified GA airplanes. It's definitely an RV Grin maker.
- Control feel vs fighter feel: RV-8 controls are crisp and honest (you move it, it moves). An F-16 is fly-by-wire: you’re not “moving the elevator,” you’re commanding a result and the jet’s computers schedule surfaces to achieve it while protecting limits. The sensations overlap in “responsive,” but the experience is fundamentally different.
- Energy management is the big divider: in an RV-8, if you pull hard, you’ll feel it bleed energy pretty quickly. You can absolutely maneuver, but you can’t ignore the energy state. Pulling G costs knots and you notice it immediately.
- Thrust-to-weight reality check: an RV-8 has good power for what it is, but it doesn’t have anything close to fighter thrust-to-weight. In an F-16, you can often “fix” a lot with power: accelerate hard, go vertical aggressively, regain energy quickly. In an RV-8, gravity wins fast if you try to live in the vertical like a jet.
- Sustained performance vs “momentary fun”: the RV-8 can do sporty turns and aerobatics nicely, but it’s not a machine built for sustained high-G turn rate at high speed. The F-16 is designed around sustained maneuvering and keeping/recapturing energy while doing it.
- Acceleration and “powering through” mistakes: in the RV-8, if you botch your energy management, you usually have to unwind, lower the nose, and rebuild airspeed the old-fashioned way. In the F-16, excess thrust plus flight control logic can make recovery feel more like “add power and command the jet back where you want it.”
- High AOA / slow-speed regime differences: the RV-8 is generally well-mannered, but it’s still a prop airplane with conventional stall margins and finite excess power. A modern fighter is built to operate in much more extreme high AoA regimes and transitions. It's very different in the corner of the envelope.
- So what is a fair comparison? If you’re looking for a “fighter-ish” feel, the RV-8 is closer to a sporty, responsive, tandem-seat performance airplane (or even a “trainer-like” vibe) than it is to a modern fighter. It’s fun, responsive, and rewarding, just not "jet fighter-like.”
- If your definition of “flies like a fighter” is “quick, responsive, grin-inducing,” the RV-8 absolutely delivers. If your definition is “pull hard without losing energy, live in the vertical, and have massive thrust-to-weight,” that’s a modern fighter world, not the RV-8 world.
With two tanks hanging on the wings, you are correct, only about half the roll rate. And at 25k, that would definitely make a difference. Slick bird like we would typically fly on an aileron rigging PMCF the roll rate was noticeably higher. Just like an A4E roll rate was noticeably higher than the TA-4J. And the slats were so much better.
I would say the RV8 will be just as much fun and then some. You're going to love it.
Fffflats
Well Known Member
Yep.........!
A-10; RV-4 SuzieQ; 'round gauge' T-38Attachments
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With the engine and prop you mention in your signature, I think you will be happy with your RV-8's climb performance.
The handling and performance are not the same as flying a military fighter. But when I strap in, put on my helmet, and strap the checklist and kneeboards to my legs, there's definitely an old section of my fighter pilot brain that's having a primal itch scratched. Later when I'm taxiing with the canopy open and my elbow thrown over the canopy rail, it hits me again. Aerobatics and formation further reinforce the comfortable notion that I still "have it." It makes my soul extremely happy to fly my -8.
Van's characterization of the tandem-seat RVs as "personal fighters" is certainly based on those endorphins, memories, and similarities of the experience of flying them. The performance is sprightly and very pleasing, compared to most GA aircraft. You will love flying yours!
That's definitely realistic. The first time a pilot experiences even 360 deg/sec after only ever seeing T-33 roll rates, its a blur to them and they won't know 360 from 720.
I’m trying to contain myself.
Nah, not really seen bogus Rocket roll rate claims. RVs on the other hand...
Fffflats
Well Known Member
Response time to power is better than a jet, it Just isn’t a sufficient magnitude of power.
100% this^^
Yeah.... and given the viper is pretty notoriously poor at high AOA/slow speed fights - I'd love to fight one in my RV-8 and see who wins. lol
Nobody has ever said which fighter. How about a comparison to a Sopwith Camel?
Wikipedia says 130hp, 98kt max speed 1085ft/minute climb. No idea about roll rate though. I bet a RV8 feels like a better fighter platform than a Sopwith Camel.
Maybe a Boeing P-12 or Curtiss P-6?
Wikipedia says 130hp, 98kt max speed 1085ft/minute climb. No idea about roll rate though. I bet a RV8 feels like a better fighter platform than a Sopwith Camel.
Maybe a Boeing P-12 or Curtiss P-6?
BAHAHA at 0:22 here looks at or near full aileron deflection and times out to about 180 deg/sec.
At what airspeed do you see 840 deg/sec?
Roll rate really isn't the only contributor to "fighter-like" performance. If you want to see the fighter and trainer criteria the USA navy and air force test against, download a copy of MIL-F-8785C or MIL-STD-1797A. They're available from everyspec or assist-quicksearch.
If you're only interested in roll rate:
Can't remember where I found this, and not sure how reliable it is, but here are lots of comparisons. Note these are all at Va, which tends to advantage the "aerobatic competition" type aircraft and disadvantage some of the faster aircraft.
Also, if you are interested in WWII fighter comparisons, there are plenty of data available:
Note that these are at very high stick forces, not really comparable with the RV-8 (I hope).
If you're only interested in roll rate:
Can't remember where I found this, and not sure how reliable it is, but here are lots of comparisons. Note these are all at Va, which tends to advantage the "aerobatic competition" type aircraft and disadvantage some of the faster aircraft.
Also, if you are interested in WWII fighter comparisons, there are plenty of data available:
Note that these are at very high stick forces, not really comparable with the RV-8 (I hope).
Someone should get rid of the flaps and make giant full wing ailerons like Extra's and such have. That'll "fix" any perceived roll rate deficiency. Thanks for the discussion here, it's made great reading!! I'm very excited to build this thing so I can experience it!
OK, here's the thing: I have not spent any time in a military fighter (at least not in this lifetime.....). But that really isn't the point. I have spent an abundance of time in my personal little fighter: my RV-4, SuzieQ. And she is exactly how I would imagine a fighter to be! Does she have the roll rate of an A-4, F-16 or other fighters? No: but that doesn't matter to me. When I pull her nose up just enough and hard-push that stick in either direction, she goes AROUND!! Faster than any other airplane I've been in, and she stops HERE, 360 degrees, right on target! And centerline seating is the exact place you want to be to witness that!! Does she have the power-to-weight advantage of a fighter? No: but does she get UP THERE? OH, yeah! She gets UP THERE! How is she in formation flight? She is a dream to fly tucked in tight, #3 right wing of a finger four formation keeping my 'landmarks' JUST where I want them, as if she is an extension of me, just thinking about what I want her to do! How is she at one-on-one dogfighting? OMG! Again, it's like she knows where I want her to go and be. Lead that shot in a tight right tail, now HARD LEFT turn and dive to get away! Come get me! Oh, yeah.......... One of my most memorable dog fights was with a former Air Force jet jock, Eric, who hadn't pulled "G"s in 15 years in the back seat, sparing with an RV-6 with his Air Force flight mate in the right seat! He could not believe how this airplane performed. Of course, he HAD to find one of his own!!
So: does she fly like an actual military fighter? I don't know.....I guess not.....but I also really don't care! She is MY little fighter, and I could not ask for a better flying or performing machine! She is everything I imagined her to be when I was pounding rivets lo those many 6.5 years and it is an amazing honor to be skilled enough to make her fly like I want her to............like I would imagine a fighter flies! She makes me want to be a better pilot just to be able to tell her what to do the way she likes to do it. My little fighter and I.............
). But that really isn't the point. I have spent an abundance of time in my personal little fighter: my RV-4, SuzieQ. And she is exactly how I would imagine a fighter to be! Does she have the roll rate of an A-4, F-16 or other fighters? No: but that doesn't matter to me. When I pull her nose up just enough and hard-push that stick in either direction, she goes AROUND!! Faster than any other airplane I've been in, and she stops HERE, 360 degrees, right on target! And centerline seating is the exact place you want to be to witness that!! Does she have the power-to-weight advantage of a fighter? No: but does she get UP THERE? OH, yeah! She gets UP THERE! How is she in formation flight? She is a dream to fly tucked in tight, #3 right wing of a finger four formation keeping my 'landmarks' JUST where I want them, as if she is an extension of me, just thinking about what I want her to do! How is she at one-on-one dogfighting? OMG! Again, it's like she knows where I want her to go and be. Lead that shot in a tight right tail, now HARD LEFT turn and dive to get away! Come get me! Oh, yeah.......... One of my most memorable dog fights was with a former Air Force jet jock, Eric, who hadn't pulled "G"s in 15 years in the back seat, sparing with an RV-6 with his Air Force flight mate in the right seat! He could not believe how this airplane performed. Of course, he HAD to find one of his own!!So: does she fly like an actual military fighter? I don't know.....I guess not.....but I also really don't care! She is MY little fighter, and I could not ask for a better flying or performing machine! She is everything I imagined her to be when I was pounding rivets lo those many 6.5 years and it is an amazing honor to be skilled enough to make her fly like I want her to............like I would imagine a fighter flies! She makes me want to be a better pilot just to be able to tell her what to do the way she likes to do it. My little fighter and I.............
