Engine prices

[Michael Burbidge]

My decision to continue building my 14A or not depends largely on Vans engine prices. Any idea when we might know engine prices?

The 2023 Oshkosh prices are still on their website, though I don’t think you can place a new order for an engine or prop.

Michael

 

[PhatRV]

Maybe a rebuild engine. I know of two RV builders in SoCal, RV7 and RV8, who learned to rebuild engines themselves and saved literally tens of thousands USD. One of the airplanes is vying to be the fastest RV in SoCal. One has been flying for at least 6-7 years.

 

[airguy]

My decision to continue building my 14A or not depends largely on Vans engine prices. Any idea when we might know engine prices?

The 2023 Oshkosh prices are still on their website, though I don’t think you can place a new order for an engine or prop.

Michael

Really?

The engine is, at most, 30% of the total aircraft price. If it goes up 20% on the engine cost, then that is .30/5 of the total aircraft cost, or 7.5% of the total aircraft cost. Quite honestly, if a cost increase of 7.5% is enough to close the door for you, then you didn't belong there in the first place. I'm sorry to say that, but you seriously HAVE to allow for unexpected expenses. If 7.5% tips the cart for you, then the cart was not going to survive in the first place. We routinely tip double that in a restaurant, come on.

I really REALLY want more people in experimental building - but there is a definite gap between "Kumbaya" and reality. For most of us, that gap is TIME. When I started building my first plane, I had absolutely zero business being in the "plane owner" or even "plane builder" club - but I knew that someday, somehow, I was going to get there. I paid cash as I went, when I could, if I could - and I waited when I couldn't. I bought a used, rebuilt engine. I bought second-hand avionics. I bought used tools. I had a solid 5-yr plan that only took 8 years. I never gave up. I never doubted that I could pull it off - only the timeline.

I don't remember who the quote is attributed to, but "If you think you CAN do a thing, or you think you CANNOT do a thing, you are probably right."

 

[Michael Burbidge]

Not many used IO-390s around, or I’d be taking that route.

 

[SPX]

Not many used IO-390s around, or I’d be taking that route.

This is true. But, where there's a will, there's a way. There are some IO-360 powered -14's out there, and I am aware of at least one that has a fixed pitch prop even. If it were me, and the engine was make or break between finishing the build or not, I think I'd go with a 360 before letting the dream get away from me.

 

[rhill]

Other Shoe to drop?

Vans has not announced what they will do with the engine & prop deposit money. There are other outlets for new Lycoming's. I guess we will find out at the next hearing. I would think Vans reputation will hang on how they handle these funds. If you lost $50k to mismanagement would you jump back in?

 

[meloosifah]

Really?

The engine is, at most, 30% of the total aircraft price. If it goes up 20% on the engine cost, then that is .30/5 of the total aircraft cost, or 7.5% of the total aircraft cost. Quite honestly, if a cost increase of 7.5% is enough to close the door for you, then you didn't belong there in the first place. I'm sorry to say that, but you seriously HAVE to allow for unexpected expenses. If 7.5% tips the cart for you, then the cart was not going to survive in the first place. We routinely tip double that in a restaurant, come on."

I really am tired of this type of post. Seriously?!? Vans prices go up 30-50%, the engine goes up 20-30%. On top of the already 5-10% we know we are going to spend/lose as a matter of course. To tell someone that a $50-70k price jump is par for the course is just stupid. Yes - this fiasco, combined with price increases far beyond inflation already, is a super storm. One thing - no big deal, but these hits one after another? One of them has to be one too many for many builders. I spent no more than I budgeted and if any major component would have increased 30% I may have been priced out.

 

[wsquare]

Original question?

The OP asked a reasonable, common sense question, "Any idea when we might know engine prices?", and gets hammered with a response, questioning his personal finances, and commitment to his project. in my opinion, this tends to indicate a substantial amount of duress is present in some of those posting. One idea is to take a deep breath, realize this situation is not the end of the earth, and let people ask questions without casting judgement.

In terms of the common sense question -- it would seem to point to a serious defect in this specific BK process, in which people are being asked to make long term decisions (with financial implications) without all available information.

In reviewing a number of posts, there is a similar refrain, captured well in this quote from an individual in another thread "I’m hoping I can work with them and they can work with me on this but given the BK, they may not be allowed to make those types of decisions yet." The similar theme being pointed out is that the attorneys running this show are NOT business people, they are attorneys, and DON'T know what they are doing (Vans is not running this show, Vans can't order a role of TP without attorney approval).

Thus, we see all the frustration, lack of answers to common sense questions, employees that say they would like to help but can't, customers forced to make decisions without important information to help guide their decision making process, etc. Just like a poorly run business. It would be very interesting and revealing to hear directly from Mr. Van, but perhaps the attorneys have him "silenced". All of which is quite sad and unfortunate.

Just an observation from a Vans aircraft owner -- and observer

 

[alpinelakespilot2000]

Really?

The engine is, at most, 30% of the total aircraft price. If it goes up 20% on the engine cost, then that is .30/5 of the total aircraft cost, or 7.5% of the total aircraft cost. Quite honestly, if a cost increase of 7.5% is enough to close the door for you, then you didn't belong there in the first place. I'm sorry to say that, but you seriously HAVE to allow for unexpected expenses. If 7.5% tips the cart for you, then the cart was not going to survive in the first place. We routinely tip double that in a restaurant, come on.

Out of touch nonsense. Many of us stretched to build even at the old prices. Between the unanticipated and very significant post-bankruptcy compulsory price increases on the kits and now engines, props, etc, I too would have been priced out. Not because I could not have afforded it if I really wanted to but because I would have chosen to prioritize other things for my wife and kids instead of what, in the end is really just a selfish—even if immensely rewarding—hobby for me. I really feel for those building on a budget who vans, even if unintentionally, is really screwing over midstream in their build and am thankful I’m not in their shoes.

 

[rhill]

In reguard to Engines

Lycoming manufactures engines. Vans is just one distributor. Lycoming has stated they do not see a penny from Vans till the engine ships. The Judge will hear a motion as to how those funds will be handled. I have no doubt the price will go up. If it exceeds the market rate,why would you not buy it elsewhere at the best price possible. A number of builders have paid for there engine in full and have been left in the dark as to what the lawyers are proposing, as have a number of builders with deposits. Its not blue aluminum, Vans has nothing to do with building the engine. Builders sent the funds to Vans in good faith. The BK Lawyers see no reason to say what they will propose till the Judge approves the motion............ Am I missing something here? We are all on hold till the process plays out.

 

[Michael Burbidge]

Thank you

meloosifah, wsquare, and alpinelakespilot2000 thank you!

I lived the dream. I built and fly a beautiful RV-9A. I love building and so decided to build a slow build 14 several years ago. Unfortunately since the time I started: COVID, inflation, and bankruptcy. All of which has resulted in an increase of the price to build that is significantly more than the rate of inflation.

For most there is a straw that breaks the camel's back. For me it will be the engine price. When I started the IO-390 was about $35K. Since that time it has risen faster than the rate of inflation, and pre-bankruptcy it was about $52K. That was already almost more than I can justify. If they tack on another 30% increase, that's it for me. Because there's no reason engine prices should jump more than inflation between August 2023 and January 2024, besides me paying for the mismanagement of the business.

You can tell me that kits were underpriced before, that its just a matter of supply and demand, that its the only way back for Vans Aircraft, that it's a rich man's hobby, on and on... None of that matters. It has just become more than I want to spend on a hobby. I will sell my 14 kits (all pre-LCP) and fly my RV-9A off into the sunset.

Cheers,
Michael-

 

[hgerhardt]

Not many used IO-390s around, or I’d be taking that route.

So go build your own. Find a run-out IO-360 angle valve and take the crankcase to Divco or Lycon or Nickson's to bore out the cylinder base holes to fit the 390 cylinders. That's how Barrett built the first 390's before Lycoming jumped on the bandwagon.

 

[AlpineYoda]

Really?

"If you think you CAN do a thing, or you think you CANNOT do a thing, you are probably right."

It was Henry Ford. The first guy to mass produce a means of transport. Literally the exact opposite of an EAB aircraft builder!

But, his words are still true.

 

[Jslow2]

Looking at the store, as far a parts for a 9 anyway, it seems pass through parts didn't go up. Matco wheels were $1200 before BK, They are still $1200. Hopefully engines are the same.

 

[climberrn]

Barrett still builds IO-390’s. A viable option. Comparable prices to vans prices 1 year ago.

 

[RV6_flyer]

So go build your own. Find a run-out IO-360 angle valve and take the crankcase to Divco or Lycon or Nickson's to bore out the cylinder base holes to fit the 390 cylinders. That's how Barrett built the first 390's before Lycoming jumped on the bandwagon.

Many of us went the USED engine route or built our own three decades ago. Many also had engines built for them.

Van's engine prices have always been good. IF not, builders would source their engines from other shops with better prices.

There are shops that will build you a custom engine for around the same price as Van's was selling new Lycoming engines for more than three decades. Van's will need to hold the price on engines with only a small markup else they will lose business to the shops that build engines. IF Van's raises engine prices too much, they will also lose sales of airframes.

Aerosport Power
Barrett Precision Engines
Titan Engines
Superior XP Engines
America's Aircraft Engines
Penn Yan Aero
Lycon


These outfit have history going back around three decades. There are more if you want to do your research.

 

[Southern Pete]

Van's cannot afford to increase the price of engines very much.
There are too many other suppliers who will take the business.
390s are not as plentiful as parallel valve 360s but still possible for others who are not Lycoming to build one as pointed out above.

 

[lr172]

Lycoming manufactures engines. Vans is just one distributor. Lycoming has stated they do not see a penny from Vans till the engine ships. The Judge will hear a motion as to how those funds will be handled. I have no doubt the price will go up. If it exceeds the market rate,why would you not buy it elsewhere at the best price possible. A number of builders have paid for there engine in full and have been left in the dark as to what the lawyers are proposing, as have a number of builders with deposits. Its not blue aluminum, Vans has nothing to do with building the engine. Builders sent the funds to Vans in good faith. The BK Lawyers see no reason to say what they will propose till the Judge approves the motion............ Am I missing something here? We are all on hold till the process plays out.

I would hold some faith that those with engine deposits or prepaid will get relief. It would seem Vans is trying to recoup a lot of the cash via excessive increases on the kits and parts. We are already hearing about folks with backordered parts getting shipped, however a lot of this is inventory and doesn't require cash payments but is a sign that they seem to be honoring commitments. If Vans were to just walk away from a deposit for an engine, leaving the customer with a total loss, that would just destroy their reputation. The kit thing is totally different. They offer a new price OR walk away. Not fun, but no one gets taken to the cleaners. While they are not honoring the original price, they are not just walking away with the deposit either.

I think the issue is they need time to recoup cash. In order to fulfill an engine order, Vans needs to pony up their 25% (less whatever moderate markup is in there) in order to pay for the engine from Lyc and there is not much cash laying around right now. No doubt Lyc is demanding prepayment before shipping. Therefore expect some delays as they refill the cash account to afford to do this. The secondary issues is that fulfilling engine orders provides little contributory cash and the consultants are likely pushing the org to prioritize efforts to those that produce cash as well as delay those that are purely cash out transactions, like fulfilling items that are not in inventory and have low margins.

Whether or not they will tack on a price increase is a big question mark. If they follow what they are doing on parts and kits, I would definitely expect something and not small either. However, at some point they need to wake up and realize that raising all of their prices 35-50% is not a sustainable approach. While the old Vans prices were competitive, they were not THAT competitive. Regardless of all of this talk of selling at a loss, Vans had several price increases over this inflationary period. Sadly all we can do is wait. My guess is they will not alter the price of the engines. There just isn't any rationale or excuse for doing this and is likely to infuriate their customer base. Not saying they won't do it, just a speculation.

At the end of the day, Vans is trying to survive here. You can only inflict so much damage on your reputation and still survive. Therefore, I would expect vans to be working on taking steps to meet that goal and protecting depositors. Yes, they are BK and therefore do whatever they want with your $. However, reputational damage MUST be considered if you have a long term planning horizon.

 

[Desert Rat]

Really?

...The engine is, at most, 30% of the total aircraft price. If it goes up 20% on the engine cost, then that is .30/5 of the total aircraft cost, or 7.5% of the total aircraft cost....

"

Greg- I get what you're trying to say, but the calculus is a bit more complex that you're proposing.

2 years and 3 months ago when I made the decision to shoehorn a Thunderbolt 390 in my RV7, I put down a deposit 1 day ahead of the announced November 1st price increase. The purchase price was $37,000. The lead time turned out to be around 12 months. Immediately prior to Vans implosion, that exact same engine cost around $65,000. Thats pretty close to a 100% increase in 2 years, and the non-thunderbolt engines have seen a similar increase.

As of today, we don't know what it will be, but we do know that people are throwing around comments about 24-48 month lead times.

So, we can divide it up and apply percentages any way you want, but the fact is that for me, if I were doing my due diligence in 2020 and my engine budget was X, then today I'm something north of X(200%) plus a potential 4 year lead time to even get the darn thing, It would make selling my kit and buying a descent 182 or even a Bonanza with a good engine and old radios start to look pretty attractive.

Say what you want about peoples motivation or budget or whatever. but unless youre living in this guys skin you really don't have much right to be making decisions for him.

My opinion, and probably worth what you paid for it...

 

[airguy]

I get it that when everything goes up it gets ugly in a hurry. The OP stated the question that his decision was predicated on the engine price alone, with no indication of other exposure to the rest of the mess. My response was based on that, and I think it was realistic.

Sorry to have apparently been the one to pee in the punch bowl, I'll sit down and shut up and leave you guys to your hand-wringing.

 

[bertschb]

...The kit thing is totally different. They offer a new price OR walk away. Not fun, but no one gets taken to the cleaners. While they are not honoring the original price, they are not just walking away with the deposit either.

...unless you made a final payment on a kit that was never delivered. My fuselage kit went up $8,000. If I don't accept the new price, I lose the $13,000 full payment I made in August.

 

[lr172]

...unless you made a final payment on a kit that was never delivered. My fuselage kit went up $8,000. If I don't accept the new price, I lose the $13,000 full payment I made in August.

Understood and clearly painful, but pretty much the same as for those with deposits if your plan is to accept the new price. If not, then that really hurts. Was only making the point that they could have just kept your $ and cancelled the order, making the fuse kit now $21k vs $8K. For clarity, I am not trying to defend their actions here, only making the argument that they appear to be honoring commitments, albeit with the very stiff price increases they have put in place. They have plead mercy and stated they cannot operate at the old prices, so that is the new reality. We can call BS, but it really doesn't matter.

 

[jimbom]

...unless you made a final payment on a kit that was never delivered. My fuselage kit went up $8,000. If I don't accept the new price, I lose the $13,000 full payment I made in August.

Does your new contract say you will lose that deposit outright????

My understanding is you can file a claim for the deposit and a portion ($3350) is considered priority to be repaid. The rest will likely be paid in part or possibly in total over time.

I have about $15,000 deposited for an engine, but they haven't presented a plan to deal with engine or propeller deposits, yet.

 

[bertschb]

Does your new contract say you will lose that deposit outright????

It wasn't a deposit. I have a deposit on an engine and a finish kit. The fuselage was paid in full in August.

I'm going to make a wild guess and predict my 390 Thunderbolt engine will increase $9,000.

 

[jimbom]

It wasn't a deposit. I have a deposit on an engine and a finish kit. The fuselage was paid in full in August.

If you paid in full and the kit has not been delivered, that is, in essence, a deposit. Again, does the new contract say you must forfeit that money if you don't accept it and pay the higher price?

 

[jimbom]

I'm going to make a wild guess and predict my 390 Thunderbolt engine will increase $9,000.

I expect an increase as well, but not on the order that kits were raised. Lycoming isn't in bankruptcy, nor are they asking for more money. Van's may want more margin, but I don't think they can convince the court to raising the cost that much and not passing it on to Lyc.

 

[Mconner7]

Apples and oranges

Terry wrote: So, we can divide it up and apply percentages any way you want, but the fact is that for me, if I were doing my due diligence in 2020 and my engine budget was X, then today I'm something north of X(200%) plus a potential 4 year lead time to even get the darn thing, It would make selling my kit and buying a descent 182 or even a Bonanza with a good engine and old radios start to look pretty attractive.

It seems you are saying that since prices for NEW engines has become ridiculous that instead of reverting to a used engine and avionics to stay in budget with your build, you will consider buying a used, decades old certified plane with an old engine and avionics that will cost more to maintain and live with mediocre performance and efficiency?

When did having every part of a build being brand new become the norm?

 

[Ironflight]

When did having every part of a build being brand new become the norm?

February 17th, 2011, best I can tell….. *

I started telling folks almost two years ago that with the prices of new engines going into the stratosphere (long before Van’s started realizing their financial predicament), I was thinking we’d se a return to used engines - and maybe other things - which is where homebuilding got its start. I just purchased a low-time IO-540 for my next project, and will give it a spit-and-polish cleanup before using it.

Paul

*Entirely made up date folks - nothing significant there…..

 

[bertschb]

If you paid in full and the kit has not been delivered, that is, in essence, a deposit. Again, does the new contract say you must forfeit that money if you don't accept it and pay the higher price?

Oh, I know the final payment I made last summer is now considered a "deposit" (100% deposit in this case) and yes, I would need to forfeit my 100% deposit if I don't accept the new price.

 

[Desert Rat]

...It seems you are saying that since prices for NEW engines has become ridiculous that instead of reverting to a used engine and avionics to stay in budget with your build, you will consider buying a used, decades old certified plane with an old engine and avionics that will cost more to maintain and live with mediocre performance and efficiency?...

Not just the engine. If I were to start my build today, in todays dollars, for the airframe kits, prop, engine, and avionics I have, I'd be sitting at about $175,000. By the time I add interior and paint I'll end up insuring it for a bit over $200,000 because thats what it would cost to replace it. For some of us, it's pretty hard to justify writing that kind of check for a two seat airplane, no matter how much total performance it offers up.

As far as mediocre performance, if you measure by $ per knot or brisk roll rate then yeah, Vans hands down, but if you measure by the ability to put 4 people and full fuel in and go somewhere, or value not having to get in like you're lowering yourself into a bathtub, or being able to tie it down without worrying about the wind smacking a hole in the rudder, then not so much.

All airplanes are a trade off. The Vans line does a lot of stuff really, really well, but they aren't a perfect airplane by any means. No airplane is. Part of what they have historically offered has been economical performance at the expense of other stuff, some of which I just mentioned.

Take away that, and yeah, If we are talking purely dollars here I'd probably just keep renting a 182. Maybe buy an old cub to restore just for fun.

I get that's not an opinion that everybody has, and that's fine too.

 

[jimbom]

When did having every part of a build being brand new become the norm?

This is just how I justified building a Van's. I could either spend $200k on a 50 year-old Bonanza or build a brand spanking new RV-10 for about the same.

I've owned a 1967 Mooney for 25 years and have had enough of chasing parts that are practically non-existent and then paying someone to learn to install them for a ridiculous number of shop hours.

 

[spatsch]

Oh, I know the final payment I made last summer is now considered a "deposit" (100% deposit in this case) and yes, I would need to forfeit my 100% deposit if I don't accept the new price.

You might want to talk to a lawyer. Pretty sure you are mistaken. Your deposit will be a claim in the bankruptcy with portion of it being a priority claim. Based on Hamstreets comment you have a good chance of recouping a portion if not all of it within 5 years.

Oliver

 

[KRviator]

You might want to talk to a lawyer. Pretty sure you are mistaken. Your deposit will be a claim in the bankruptcy with portion of it being a priority claim. Based on Hamstreets comment you have a good chance of recouping a portion if not all of it within 5 years.

Oliver

So that being the case, the new kit and part prices are not what they actually cost, plus a markup for profitability. It's production cost, plus profitability, plus a margin to repay those who are in Bert's position and refuse to cop a pineapple.

I don't disagree with that mindset, but it does highlight that the new prices are artificially high at the moment compared to what is necessary to run a profitable Vans.

 

[Vansconvert]

Not just the engine. If I were to start my build today, in todays dollars, for the airframe kits, prop, engine, and avionics I have, I'd be sitting at about $175,000. By the time I add interior and paint I'll end up insuring it for a bit over $200,000 because thats what it would cost to replace it. For some of us, it's pretty hard to justify writing that kind of check for a two seat airplane, no matter how much total performance it offers up.

As far as mediocre performance, if you measure by $ per knot or brisk roll rate then yeah, Vans hands down, but if you measure by the ability to put 4 people and full fuel in and go somewhere, or value not having to get in like you're lowering yourself into a bathtub, or being able to tie it down without worrying about the wind smacking a hole in the rudder, then not so much.

All airplanes are a trade off. The Vans line does a lot of stuff really, really well, but they aren't a perfect airplane by any means. No airplane is. Part of what they have historically offered has been economical performance at the expense of other stuff, some of which I just mentioned.

Take away that, and yeah, If we are talking purely dollars here I'd probably just keep renting a 182. Maybe buy an old cub to restore just for fun.

I get that's not an opinion that everybody has, and that's fine too.[/QUOTE


Lowering yourself into a bathtub. Totally agree on that. One of the main factors why I gave up my 7A.

 

[georgemohr]

This is just how I justified building a Van's. I could either spend $200k on a 50 year-old Bonanza or build a brand spanking new RV-10 for about the same.

I've owned a 1967 Mooney for 23 years and have had enough of chasing parts that are practically non-existent and then paying someone to learn to install them for a ridiculous number of shop hours.

Perfectly summed up!

 

[Swingwing]

My decision to continue building my 14A or not depends largely on Vans engine prices. Any idea when we might know engine prices?

The 2023 Oshkosh prices are still on their website, though I don’t think you can place a new order for an engine or prop.

Michael

Before abandoning your project I would seriously consider using a straight or angled valve IO-360. 10 or 30 HP less will still give you the RV grin

 

[Michael Burbidge]

Good info

Before abandoning your project I would seriously consider using a straight or angled valve IO-360. 10 or 30 HP less will still give you the RV grin

I've been looking into this. Looks like I could pick up a used IO-360 angle valve for a reasonable price. And frankly the performance specs according to Vans aren't that different, especially with the regular IO-390.

Thanks,
Michael-

 

[Everwild]

IO-375

If not mistaken, Aerosport offers an IO-375 stroker as well which might be a good option.

 

[Walt]

If not mistaken, Aerosport offers an IO-375 stroker as well which might be a good option.

The above is really a TCM IO-370 assembled by AS.
I’m super happy with this engine on my RV7, 200+HP (but conservatively rated at 195 from TCM). I believe you can still purchase direct from Continental.

 

[rhill]

I would hold some faith that those with engine deposits or prepaid will get relief. It would seem Vans is trying to recoup a lot of the cash via excessive increases on the kits and parts. We are already hearing about folks with backordered parts getting shipped, however a lot of this is inventory and doesn't require cash payments but is a sign that they seem to be honoring commitments. If Vans were to just walk away from a deposit for an engine, leaving the customer with a total loss, that would just destroy their reputation. The kit thing is totally different. They offer a new price OR walk away. Not fun, but no one gets taken to the cleaners. While they are not honoring the original price, they are not just walking away with the deposit either.

I think the issue is they need time to recoup cash. In order to fulfill an engine order, Vans needs to pony up their 25% (less whatever moderate markup is in there) in order to pay for the engine from Lyc and there is not much cash laying around right now. No doubt Lyc is demanding prepayment before shipping. Therefore expect some delays as they refill the cash account to afford to do this. The secondary issues is that fulfilling engine orders provides little contributory cash and the consultants are likely pushing the org to prioritize efforts to those that produce cash as well as delay those that are purely cash out transactions, like fulfilling items that are not in inventory and have low margins.

Whether or not they will tack on a price increase is a big question mark. If they follow what they are doing on parts and kits, I would definitely expect something and not small either. However, at some point they need to wake up and realize that raising all of their prices 35-50% is not a sustainable approach. While the old Vans prices were competitive, they were not THAT competitive. Regardless of all of this talk of selling at a loss, Vans had several price increases over this inflationary period. Sadly all we can do is wait. My guess is they will not alter the price of the engines. There just isn't any rationale or excuse for doing this and is likely to infuriate their customer base. Not saying they won't do it, just a speculation.

At the end of the day, Vans is trying to survive here. You can only inflict so much damage on your reputation and still survive. Therefore, I would expect vans to be working on taking steps to meet that goal and protecting depositors. Yes, they are BK and therefore do whatever they want with your $. However, reputational damage MUST be considered if you have a long term planning horizon.

I whole Hartley agree

 

[PaulvS]

Engine pricing

The latest court document filed on 2 Jan 2024 indicates that engine pricing may be known at or after the end of the month. The wording suggests that contract revisions (price increases?) are to be expected.

The Debtor also has customer deposits on third party products used in completing the kits, including engines, props, and avionics. The Debtor will work with key suppliers this month to determine the timing of delivery and economics of the transaction in order to proceed with contract revisions for these customers.

(Bold emphasis mine)

 

[Driftdown]

. . . . Quite honestly, if a cost increase of 7.5% is enough to close the door for you, then you didn't belong there in the first place. I'm sorry to say that, but you seriously HAVE to allow for unexpected expenses. If 7.5% tips the cart for you, then the cart was not going to survive in the first place. We routinely tip double that in a restaurant, come on.

If you were an employee within my company, I would fire you, right on the spot, for making such a foolish statement like that.

 

[squeakersc063]

. . . . Quite honestly, if a cost increase of 7.5% is enough to close the door for you, then you didn't belong there in the first place. I'm sorry to say that, but you seriously HAVE to allow for unexpected expenses. If 7.5% tips the cart for you, then the cart was not going to survive in the first place. We routinely tip double that in a restaurant, come on.

If you were an employee within my company, I would fire you, right on the spot, for making such a foolish statement like that.

I agree. It's a pretty narrow minded viewpoint. 7.5% now for someone who started just 3 or 4 years ago is just the tip of the iceberg. These engines were in the 40k range just 3 years ago. They're upwards of 70k now. When I started I was budgeting around 150-170 and now I'm solidly looking at over 200k. That's not including another engine price increase I wasn't anticipating since I've had one on order now for 18 months.

 

[deMan]

Price increases built into budgets?

I agree. It's a pretty narrow minded viewpoint. 7.5% now for someone who started just 3 or 4 years ago is just the tip of the iceberg. These engines were in the 40k range just 3 years ago. They're upwards of 70k now. When I started I was budgeting around 150-170 and now I'm solidly looking at over 200k. That's not including another engine price increase I wasn't anticipating since I've had one on order now for 18 months.

This all got me thinking. When I looked at what building a 9 would cost I only looked at the current kit prices and didn’t even consider that they might be higher a few years down the road when I actually order. The recent post about kit price history showed that prices actually used to increase regularly to match inflation. So my original budget was never realistic.
Did anyone consider the “normal” price increases that are to be expected in their budget?

 

[PhatRV]

This all got me thinking. When I looked at what building a 9 would cost I only looked at the current kit prices and didn’t even consider that they might be higher a few years down the road when I actually order. The recent post about kit price history showed that prices actually used to increase regularly to match inflation. So my original budget was never realistic.
Did anyone consider the “normal” price increases that are to be expected in their budget?

No. I cash flow each of the kits when I was building my RV. I never had the full amount of money to purchase everything up front. I only borrowed from my retirement fund for the engine. I could have waited for a deal to come by but I want to finish and took the lump. I enjoyed the process of building an airplane having dreamt about it for almost 2 decades. If I am the person to dollar-and-cent everything and trying to justify it, I would never build an airplane, nobody would. You see a lot of this types in for forum in the last few months. I see some people dole out thousands just for the LED nav lights. No problem with that, but I just DIY and roll my own lights, like how some people did it back then. To further save money, I just did everything else DIY, including upholstery, and paint.

 

[Jonnyb]

This all got me thinking. When I looked at what building a 9 would cost I only looked at the current kit prices and didn’t even consider that they might be higher a few years down the road when I actually order. The recent post about kit price history showed that prices actually used to increase regularly to match inflation. So my original budget was never realistic.
Did anyone consider the “normal” price increases that are to be expected in their budget?

You have a budget!?!

I’m a firm believer in “man maths”.

I have no idea how I’m going to afford any of it, but somehow I keep ordering stuff!

 

[Flyerstevie]

I’m new here and jumping in midstream but…my two cents are that Van’s announced a price increase last year on Lycoming’s when I was told by Them they had renegotiated their OEM pricing. Having worked for different aircraft manufacturers for over 25 years in senior management involved in those sort of things, including OEM agreements with Lycoming and Rolls Royce, that pricing shouldn’t change for at least a year or three. In those circumstances Van’s has no reason to raise prices for engines. They knew the costs, overhead and margin expectations when they reset the price last year. The bankruptcy should impact that minimally in my opinion. Maybe that’s just wishful thinking on my part since I still need to order mine for my project.

 

[jimbom]

I’m new here and jumping in midstream but…my two cents are that Van’s announced a price increase last year on Lycoming’s when I was told by Them they had renegotiated their OEM pricing. Having worked for different aircraft manufacturers for over 25 years in senior management involved in those sort of things, including OEM agreements with Lycoming and Rolls Royce, that pricing shouldn’t change for at least a year or three. In those circumstances Van’s has no reason to raise prices for engines. They knew the costs, overhead and margin expectations when they reset the price last year. The bankruptcy should impact that minimally in my opinion. Maybe that’s just wishful thinking on my part since I still need to order mine for my project.

In the meeting of the creditors today, Van's made it clear that for those of us with deposits on (Lycoming) engines, our contracted price will go up. They said they're aiming to get those rejection notices to us by the end of next week. They would not discuss anything about negotiations or the contract between Lycoming and Van's. They repeatedly said it's confidential and they can't discuss it.

I'm with you, the price that Van's pays Lycoming has no reason to change. But here's my guess: Van's can't come up with whatever part of our deposits that is essentially gone. So, to fulfill the ~450 engine orders on the books, Van's may be asking for Lycoming to finance the engines and allow Van's to raise our prices to cover that cost of financing.

 

[jliltd]

I just priced a TO-360 at AirPower and it's currently $88,352 factory rebuilt or $123,543 new. That's a 4-cylinder angle-valve turbo charged carbureted engine as seen on Commander 112TC's. With dual mag (yuk!). That engine price exceeds the market price of a nice flying Commander.

 

[scottmillhouse]

The 12 powerplant kit is a different animal since it includes prop, engine and firewall forward. Vans does not consider it as a kit so there has been no communication. When questioned they said response by mid-January inferring it was an engine. Any discussion on Rotax engines with prop and FWF or just assume no news until February like for Lycoming Engines? Ordered mine and paid deposit in August. Last news was crating November 6- 10 December.