Van's Air Force
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Engine Deposit info
- Thread starter FlyGuy65
- Start date
I'm in a similar boat, so not sure how that works. Additionally, I was just asked for the final payment on my prop, but was awaiting more info I had requested roughly two weeks ago. I got a reply from Hartzell, but they sent me back to Vans from which I haven't received a response yet.
Very poor communication
Responses from Lycoming have been ...missing in action.
I have been, for the most part, ignored in my requests for updates over the last two years.
I know it is an understatement to say that Lycoming doesn't need me to buy from them in order to survive.
But, come on!
Responses from Lycoming have been ...missing in action.
I have been, for the most part, ignored in my requests for updates over the last two years.
I know it is an understatement to say that Lycoming doesn't need me to buy from them in order to survive.
But, come on!
gtrplaya101
Member
Man I feel for you guys. I hope Vans already paid Lycoming
Doug Rohrer
Well Known Member
+1
Add me to the list of customers who paid a deposit on an engine but don't have it yet. I paid a 25% deposit on an engine/prop combo over 18 months ago. The prop was delivered almost a year ago and is still in the box. My IO-390 engine is supposed to be delivered right at the end of this year. I am nervous...
Add me to the list of customers who paid a deposit on an engine but don't have it yet. I paid a 25% deposit on an engine/prop combo over 18 months ago. The prop was delivered almost a year ago and is still in the box. My IO-390 engine is supposed to be delivered right at the end of this year. I am nervous...
iansrv6
Member
Must be the way you ask!
I paid a deposit April 22 but agreed with Lyc that I didn't need it until late 23. Had been given a 1st Sept delivery but that's been and gone. Emailed Lyc direct and Chris confirmed that they were running late but still building engines and would be in touch in the near future with an update. He also said that they do not take deposits and that the full amount is invoiced before shipping. Also confirmed that "Vans is and remains one of Lycoming’s most reliable customers with no delay in payment. We continue to build for Vans customers, with engines on our build line at this moment."
I paid a deposit April 22 but agreed with Lyc that I didn't need it until late 23. Had been given a 1st Sept delivery but that's been and gone. Emailed Lyc direct and Chris confirmed that they were running late but still building engines and would be in touch in the near future with an update. He also said that they do not take deposits and that the full amount is invoiced before shipping. Also confirmed that "Vans is and remains one of Lycoming’s most reliable customers with no delay in payment. We continue to build for Vans customers, with engines on our build line at this moment."
Thanks, not the answer I had hoped for, but it's an answer.
Getting the same feeling as when I realized I married the wrong woman....
A friend in this situation got the exact same words. Seems deposits never made it to Lycoming, Lycoming is aware of the turbulence and has a generic canned response ready.
cactusman
Well Known Member
Well anyone getting any emails are ahead of me on that front. Last contact was Wednesday, Apr 13, 2022.
ColoradoSolar
Well Known Member
I received my engine at the end of September.
I ordered an IO-540 Thunderbolt in March 2022. I was given a 12-18 month delivery. I called April of 2023 to talk with Jeff that was in charge of Thunderbolt at the time of my order and he passed me to Chris Gayman that has taken his place. He gave me a promise that my engine would be ready Mid to end of May. That came and passed with no engine in sight. I gave it until 8-22-2023 and called Chris again. He gave me a new promise date of mid to end of September. I called back mid September to find out about when to send finial payment and Chris tells me the Thunderbolt line has been shut down for the month of September due to a backlog on engines heads that have caused some other engine parts to rust and they were dealing with that right now. He told me his boss has not given him any update on when the line would be back running again but my engine was at the top of the list for assembly. After the financial news with Vans I have been wondering the same thing as others about my engine deposit (has it been paid to Lycoming?) Is this a reason for ongoing delays? I also received my prop about 6 months after my order was placed as promised and that went without any delay or financial problems. I'm not sure if this answers anyone's questions but I'm not sure what the real truth is on engine problems or promised delivery dates. I hope I receive my engine soon and it is free of rusty parts and spider webs!!! I am going to try to reach out to Chris again this week and get an update. If I have any news I will post it on here.
Paul Thomas
Well Known Member
Van has financial errors, but they truthfulness has never been an issue. I do not believe that Lycoming and Vans were lying to customers about the reason for engine delays to hide the financial problems. I understand why the thought would enter one's head, but I don't believe they'd commit outright fraud and that Lycoming would help do that.
This financial crisis is just poor financial management.
This financial crisis is just poor financial management.
Ferdara
Member
Take the prop out of the box..... read the storing instructions from Hartzell or give Kristy a call.
Ferdara
Ferdara
Ferdara
Member
I ordered March 2022 - I believe you are spot on! Unfortunately! However I need an engine for my $200+K project that I have all the parts and kit, free from Laser cut. It would be nice if Lycoming would keep our spot and we could fund the deposit ourselves to move forward and then work with Vans to find out what will happen with our deposits and if we would every get a refund or partial. I have reached out to Chris via his personal email at work with no response from 2 weeks ago. I called his Cell this morning, left a message. Called Lycoming and left a message on Chris's voice mail at work. I was told he is in vendor meetings for the next two days. This is a far cry from when he sold me on Thunderbolt that I would have a personal "concierge" that would be always available to answer questions and to check on my engine. At that time he also had his Cell number printed on his card. Also when I called Lycoming today I was informed that Chris was the only one I could talk to in the Thunderbolt department, as the only others in Thunderbolt were the builders on the floor.
I also am supposed to get my IO-390 EXP119 in December. I have not heard anything back from Vans for obvious reasons.
One thing that I am wondering now that all of this is happening is: Why did Vans need 25% at all for Engine deposits? If you cancel your engine order you only lose $500 (I believe). Demand was always there so if you cancel your order someone would take that slot immediately. And apparently Lycoming (and probably Hartzell as well) were not looking for your deposit either.
One thing that I am wondering now that all of this is happening is: Why did Vans need 25% at all for Engine deposits? If you cancel your engine order you only lose $500 (I believe). Demand was always there so if you cancel your order someone would take that slot immediately. And apparently Lycoming (and probably Hartzell as well) were not looking for your deposit either.
I will definitely heed your advice.
But perhaps in the meantime you could shed some light:
Is it better stored out of the box?
Who is Kristy and how do we contact her?
RheinRivets
Member
Engine Deposit and Prop Paid
We seem to be in the same boat as all of you here. As far as I know, our club paid a deposit some time ago for a standard YIO-540-D4A5 engine that is scheduled for delivery at the end of 2023. And we have paid in full for a propeller whose expected delivery date has already passed. No message from anyone so far.
We're waiting to see what VAN's internal assessment will be. I still hope that VANs can return to a more or less normal day-to-day business after receiving some help in terms of cash flow. Hard to imagine the payments might get eaten up in the worst case.
We seem to be in the same boat as all of you here. As far as I know, our club paid a deposit some time ago for a standard YIO-540-D4A5 engine that is scheduled for delivery at the end of 2023. And we have paid in full for a propeller whose expected delivery date has already passed. No message from anyone so far.
We're waiting to see what VAN's internal assessment will be. I still hope that VANs can return to a more or less normal day-to-day business after receiving some help in terms of cash flow. Hard to imagine the payments might get eaten up in the worst case.
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Add me in. $9500 in the hole. Now what happens to the $38030 M1B I locked the price in on to find Lycoming doesn’t even have my deposit? We made those orders to lock our price in….firstly I’m worried about the deposits I have out there with them plus I don’t want my engine going up in price…..I had to borrow money to lock that price in.
Yep, still stony silence from Lycoming for me. It sounds like our deposits are with Vans anyway. My prop is already in my posession now. All I need is an engine (ordered) and firewall forward (not ordered, but worst case I could source most components individually, I guess). Keeping everything crossed here.
Mind you thinking about what I said….lycoming set the prices not vans and couldn’t deliver for a period of time so they shouldn’t change…..
And the second question is….should we pay lycoming direct after vans pay the deposits on? Imagine sending 10’s of thousands more to vans and not receiving an engine if things went south? I’d want a secured creditor guarantee before doing that……just saying….
And the second question is….should we pay lycoming direct after vans pay the deposits on? Imagine sending 10’s of thousands more to vans and not receiving an engine if things went south? I’d want a secured creditor guarantee before doing that……just saying….
I have a deposit on a Thunderbolt March 22. Do I think it’s possible to lose it? Yes. However if Vans was to survive and expect to continue it would be business suicide to take 10k from who knows how many customers. NOBODY in their right mind would buy from them going forward.
A data point. I ordered a prop and engine right before the early 2022 price increase. The engine was delivered a few months ago. Not a thunderbolt just a plain 390 no frills. Everything went fine.
My $0.02 is that Lycoming themselves are working through their big order backlog and if an engine comes ready the order is satisfied. Nobody wins anywhere if anyone defaults. I think everyone will be fine. It is possible that Vans customers are not front of the line because of the really good discount we get at Lycoming. But I have no inside info.
My $0.02 is that Lycoming themselves are working through their big order backlog and if an engine comes ready the order is satisfied. Nobody wins anywhere if anyone defaults. I think everyone will be fine. It is possible that Vans customers are not front of the line because of the really good discount we get at Lycoming. But I have no inside info.
That’s very simple. Vans would have to go under for you to lose your deposit. They can’t take your money then continue operating. That’s the law
Agree. I said this before which is why I think we might be ok.
its actually simpler than that...they cannot continue operating after taking your money...they survive so does your deposit.
I'm no expert, but I thought Chapter 11 (if it happened) does theoretically allow companies to walk away from previously-agreed contracts and leave people out of pocket, as long as the creditors agree to the plan.
Admittedly my understanding is that Chapter 11 is generally (ab)used to screw staff, unions and and individual major creditors rather than customers.
I think it's less likely to be a matter of legalities and more a matter of practicalities, since if they did eat people's deposits like this no-one would trust them enough to send them money again.
Admittedly my understanding is that Chapter 11 is generally (ab)used to screw staff, unions and and individual major creditors rather than customers.
I think it's less likely to be a matter of legalities and more a matter of practicalities, since if they did eat people's deposits like this no-one would trust them enough to send them money again.
Probably true, but what would happen if Van's didn't survive?
My real concern is the remaining balance of my RV-10 engine when it comes due at the end of the year. What if, while they had my money ready to pay Lycoming, a court says, "You're done, and no refunds to anyone except 1st-priority creditors"?
There needs to be a way to make that final balance payment securely, possibly using an escrow company that would pay Lycoming directly. Van's would and should still make their profit margin of course, but the large balance wouldn't be exposed to loss during these exceptional times.
Frankly I would trust them more after a chapter 11 bankruptcy than right now. At least at that point a court independently reviewed their financials and believes there reorganization plan can succeed. Apple went through chapter 11 and people seem to trust them.
Also depending on how bad their financials are they might honor the deposits in a chapter 11 filing. They might just need that to renegotiate locked in prices and current liabilities from LCP which they really can’t do any other way.
Oliver
Yeah, but Chapter 11 doesn't usually involve asking customers to take a haircut or renegotiating what they pay - unless they're larger corporate/institutional customers.
I'm not sure how you negotiate a Chapter 11 deal with a large number of retail customers, it wouldn't seem practical.
Am I missing some news? Has Lycoming reported something negative in their financials? Or is everyone just worried about their deposit to Lycoming through Vans going 'missing?'
I did get the message from Cleveland tools that they are struggling too. Is lycoming struggling too?
I did get the message from Cleveland tools that they are struggling too. Is lycoming struggling too?
Desert Rat
Well Known Member
Lycoming is not struggling. They are owned by Textron who also owns McCauley, Beech, Cessna, Hawker, Bell Helicopter, and a host of non-aviation related enterprises.
Carl Froehlich
Well Known Member
Two data points on my Thunderbolt IO-540 order:
- On August 3rd, there were 10 orders ahead of me.
- On October 30th, there were “15 or so” orders ahead of me.
No estimate of delivery - ever.
Based on this information I’d estimate they are producing very few engines each month, if any.
After over 2 1/2 years it seems I’m going backwards on the deliver list.
Carl
- On August 3rd, there were 10 orders ahead of me.
- On October 30th, there were “15 or so” orders ahead of me.
No estimate of delivery - ever.
Based on this information I’d estimate they are producing very few engines each month, if any.
After over 2 1/2 years it seems I’m going backwards on the deliver list.
Carl
Manufacturing companies rarely pay employees to sit around the factory twiddling thumbs. If they weren't producing things, they would shut down the plant and you probably would have heard about it from one of the AV journalists by now. Far more likely is that there is a priority system on orders and you are not in the top category, with other high priority customers pushing you down the list (no legal obligation to maintain a first come, first served system), or they have diverted staff to make parts for the replacement market instead of new engines. Could be many things, but doubt they are not producing components. There is a pretty big bubble in the aviation market right now and it would be foolish not to get while the getting is good. I am confident that thy are "getting" from somewhere. Also very possible this is a supplier issue and Lyc is only making the stuff for which they can get materials for and a key shortfall is limiting the number of complete engines they can crank out the door.
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Carl Froehlich
Well Known Member
Yep - I’d guess the Thunderbolt line got talent and parts redirected (stolen) to fill holes in the certified engine and parts lines. An engine order that is pushing three years old (and at a price before ~six price hikes) may not represent their highest profit margin opportunity.
If my guess is right, the green eye shade guys are in charge.
But with no exit ramp to go with another engine shop option, I’m stuck.
Carl
KatanaPilot
Well Known Member
As much as we may decry the finance folks, we don't have to look very far to see a great example of what can happen when the people in charge don't know how to count beans.
Yessir, this is america where profit is king. Whether we like it or not, we can't really fault them. Not touching the other part beyond saying it is an excellent counter point.
cactusman
Well Known Member
The lack of response from Lycoming Thunderbolt Shop customer service is disturbing to say the least. Although given that Van's has our cash and not Lycoming I can understand their reluctance to respond.
I just hope we don't become unsecured creditors.... because that status generally sucks.
Does anyone here know for sure that Vans is holding our Lycoming deposits? It seems to be the opinion of several here, but has anyone actually confirmed that?
It really should be in some kind of escrow account (20/20 hindsight.) That would be in the best interest of both Lycoming and us.
