Check your rivet inventory

[TShort]

Not being very familiar with Cherry rivets, I just counted the rivets in my kit during inventory last week.

I had ordered a few spares to have on hand based on other threads.

The spares came today, and I realized they were different than what was shipped with my kit:



Left is what was shipped, right is one of the CR3213-4-3 spares I bought.

The wing calls for the button head variety (total 78). Check your inventory to make sure you got the right ones - they are not easy to come by due to issues mentioned in other threads! (And they are not cheap).

 

[rocketman1988]

Just got home and checked; I have the same issue. Vans sent 78 CR3212-4-3 flush head rivets instead of the specified CR3213-4-3 universal head rivets that are specified.

Unfortunately, this could be a show stopper, as those rivets are currently made of Unobtanium.

 

[Speedpants]

Not being very familiar with Cherry rivets, I just counted the rivets in my kit during inventory last week.

I had ordered a few spares to have on hand based on other threads.

The spares came today, and I realized they were different than what was shipped with my kit:

View attachment 108319

Left is what was shipped, right is one of the CR3213-4-3 spares I bought.

The wing calls for the button head variety (total 78). Check your inventory to make sure you got the right ones - they are not easy to come by due to issues mentioned in other threads! (And they are not cheap).

The Cherrymax rivet factory burned to the ground last February, those might be all they had, until the factory is rebuilt and production ramps up again there will be a shortage unfortunately.

 

[Mikeyb]

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/aerospace-industry-scrambles-deal-with-fallout-huge-us-factory-fire-2025-02-27/

Trivia on that fire. Supposedly the world’s largest supplier of blind rivets. Over half a million sq ft !

 

[rocketman1988]

The Cherrymax rivet factory burned to the ground last February, those might be all they had, until the factory is rebuilt and production ramps up again there will be a shortage unfortunately.

Yeah, unfortunately the ones they sent will not work. If they were going to substitute, They could have looked at the CR3243-4-3 which is an oversized CherryMax, or possibly a CR3213-4-4 which is a little bit longer.

 

[N8DAV8R]

Looks like I got lucky on this one. Looks like I have the correct CR3243-4-3.

I feel like I need to re-inventory the whole kit. In my last build I didn't go through and count hardware. It just wasn't worth the time, if I was shorted on something that fit in a little bag it was more efficient to just eat the cost later on than spend hours measuring and counting rivets, bolts, and washers. I'll probably at least spot check the critical things like those cherry max rivets. I feel like I could have easily confused myself on the structure parts based on reports here and need to go over it all a second time.

 

[2theskyy]

Yeah, unfortunately the ones they sent will not work. If they were going to substitute, They could have looked at the CR3243-4-3 which is an oversized CherryMax, or possibly a CR3213-4-4 which is a little bit longer.

I wouldn’t go with a longer structural pull rivet. But you already know that. Just hope no one else gets that idea.

 

[N10KE]

Just got home and checked; I have the same issue. Vans sent 78 CR3212-4-3 flush head rivets instead of the specified CR3213-4-3 universal head rivets that are specified.

Unfortunately, this could be a show stopper, as those rivets are currently made of Unobtanium.

Aww, come on Bob - just switch your build to flush rivets and build on!

 

[flymore]

What about Huck rivets?

 

[rocketman1988]

I wouldn’t go with a longer structural pull rivet. But you already know that. Just hope no one else gets that idea.

Yeah, true. I will edit it.

 

[rocketman1988]

Looks like I got lucky on this one. Looks like I have the correct CR3243-4-3.

I feel like I need to re-inventory the whole kit. In my last build I didn't go through and count hardware. It just wasn't worth the time, if I was shorted on something that fit in a little bag it was more efficient to just eat the cost later on than spend hours measuring and counting rivets, bolts, and washers. I'll probably at least spot check the critical things like those cherry max rivets. I feel like I could have easily confused myself on the structure parts based on reports here and need to go over it all a second time.

The correct rivet is CR3213-4-3.

The CR3243-4-3 is an oversized rivet…

 

[rocketman1988]

Aww, come on Bob - just switch your build to flush rivets and build on!

Pretty sure the reason for the cherrymax in that location is lack of access to buck a rivet. Otherwise, it would be a simple change.

Have to look at the plans closer. Been trying to organize parts and get rid of the crates so I can start building!

 

[catmandu]

As painful as it was to get my wing kit pushed six weeks, I feel lucky reading posts like these.

 

[TShort]

Someone mentioned a wiki for stuff … setting one up is way way outside my wheelhouse, but I’d contribute if there was one.

I have a list of little things (rivet size error, miscount on needed inventory, etc) - most are pretty obvious if this isn’t your first kit (and, those with other kits likely have extras and spares in the shop). It would be helpful to have it out there - I don’t know how long it might take submissions to make it into KAI revisions.

 

[Louise Hose]

Just FYI, I received the correct Cherry Max rivets and EXACTLY the number called out. Thankfully, Paul had four extras in his supplies. Already needed two extras on the left wing (you use them pretty early in the build). Hoping to not do any worse on the right wing.

As for inventorying hardware, I did count units for any with less than 20 or so and every type of hardware for dead on! No more, no less. I did not count items with counts of 84 or 168!

 

[Jetmart]

Where are the CR3213-4-3 used? I'm just seeing CR3213-4-2 called out in the KAI's so far?

 

[rocketman1988]

Where are the CR3213-4-3 used? I'm just seeing CR3213-4-2 called out in the KAI's so far?

I hope they aren’t Cr3213-4-2 because there were none included in the kit and no line for them in the inventory list…

 

[Jetmart]

I hope they aren’t Cr3213-4-2 because there were none included in the kit and no line for them in the inventory list…

I used the search function on a pdf viewer of all the KAI's and all that came up was 78 Cr3213-4-2 rivets. Call outs are on page 27-02 and 27-07. No Cr3213-4-3 rivets.

Someone suggested merging all the KAI sections into one pdf and then it is very easy to search. Works great.

 

[N10KE]

I used the search function on a pdf viewer of all the KAI's and all that came up was 78 Cr3213-4-2 rivets. Call outs are on page 27-02 and 27-07. No Cr3213-4-3 rivets.

Someone suggested merging all the KAI sections into one pdf and then it is very easy to search. Works great.

Gosh, I hope Van’s has a source for 12,000 of these rivets (80 per kit times 150 kits)! They are hard to find.

 

[rocketman1988]

I hope they aren’t Cr3213-4-2 because there were none included in the kit and no line for them in the inventory list…

Looking at the parts being joined, not sure the grip length of a -2 rivet is long enough. It only has a grip range of .0625-.125.

Maybe Louise can chime in…

One of the call outs has to be incorrect…

 

[TShort]

Louise commented on this in her build thread:

RV-15 N115LP - Wings

We opened the four crates and took everything out Saturday evening after arriving home from Aurora. The inventory began this yesterday morning. One or two neighbors were helping with occasional assistance from Paul. It took about 4.5 hours to do the inventory and organize storage. No surprise...

vansairforce.net

 

[rocketman1988]

Louise commented on this in her build thread:

RV-15 N115LP - Wings

We opened the four crates and took everything out Saturday evening after arriving home from Aurora. The inventory began this yesterday morning. One or two neighbors were helping with occasional assistance from Paul. It took about 4.5 hours to do the inventory and organize storage. No surprise...

vansairforce.net

Yes I saw that so I would think that the plans should call out -3 instead of -2

 

[TShort]

Yes I saw that so I would think that the plans should call out -3 instead of -2

Agree.
I think that is probably an error in the KAI; I have found one other incorrect rivet size call out on the KAI as well.

 

[docjjrmd]

Gosh, I hope Van’s has a source for 12,000 of these rivets (80 per kit times 150 kits)! They are hard to find.

Parts Base has several suppliers with multiple thousands, Boeing Distribution with 211,000 Textron with 91,000. Search for equivalent part numbers such as CR3213-4-03, M7885/2-4-03, S2906-4-3, or the NAS number NAS9301B-4-03. Pricing is all over the place but they are available. I've seen as low as $0.27 per to $14+ for 1. Seems bulk sales of numbers in thousands gets best price, no surprise there, but they are available. Boeing Distribution has them marked as overstock clearance priced FWIW.

 

[Alphalpha]

I don't know if you guys saw this on page 12-05 of the tank plans.

For plans feedback.

 

[Louise Hose]

I was asked to submit KAI issues and similar issues at: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/278c1b41e2084280a8037f4af3bf29c2

So far, it has been a black hole (except an acknowledgment receipt) but hopefully they are getting and processing the information.

 

[rocketman1988]

Parts Base has several suppliers with multiple thousands, Boeing Distribution with 211,000 Textron with 91,000. Search for equivalent part numbers such as CR3213-4-03, M7885/2-4-03, S2906-4-3, or the NAS number NAS9301B-4-03. Pricing is all over the place but they are available. I've seen as low as $0.27 per to $14+ for 1. Seems bulk sales of numbers in thousands gets best price, no surprise there, but they are available. Boeing Distribution has them marked as overstock clearance priced FWIW.

I have sent multiple quote requests. Apparently Boeing distribution isn’t interested in selling to individuals. A couple of the others require a minimum of 100 rivets which would be ok but the quote came back at $2700 for 100 rivets…

 

[N8DAV8R]

I was asked to submit KAI issues and similar issues at: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/278c1b41e2084280a8037f4af3bf29c2

So far, it has been a black hole (except an acknowledgment receipt) but hopefully they are getting and processing the information.

This 'processing' piece seems where the organization has a lot of trouble. I have little doubt that they understand they have problems, but executing on solutions is rare. I have had a conversation with an executive that included a whole lot of mea-culpa on the shortcomings. Some of that included problems like technical issues leading to lost parts orders that have been going on for months. They know, but they can't implement changes which is really weird. In the context of the RV-15 kits my opinion is that it's unfair to beat them up for KAI errors, we knew what we were getting into as early adopters and volunteered to be part of the solution. It's up to Van's to correct things and I really hope they get there, but we also have to support each other by sharing like we do here.

I wish I wasn't so busy and I could be among you all that are finding this stuff...I have a lot of catching up to do! Hopefully the decks are cleared this weekend.

 

[Alphalpha]

This 'processing' piece seems where the organization has a lot of trouble. I have little doubt that they understand they have problems, but executing on solutions is rare. I have had a conversation with an executive that included a whole lot of mea-culpa on the shortcomings. Some of that included problems like technical issues leading to lost parts orders that have been going on for months. They know, but they can't implement changes which is really weird. In the context of the RV-15 kits my opinion is that it's unfair to beat them up for KAI errors, we knew what we were getting into as early adopters and volunteered to be part of the solution. It's up to Van's to correct things and I really hope they get there, but we also have to support each other by sharing like we do here.

I wish I wasn't so busy and I could be among you all that are finding this stuff...I have a lot of catching up to do! Hopefully the decks are cleared this weekend.

I might be wrong but, given the nature of some of their issues and their locale away from a larger city I expect keeping a sufficient and well trained employee population is not easy for them. And this gets worse as they get bigger. The really big hurdle will be when they transition to producing SLSA's in their other product lines... which Rian indicated was the plan for the RV-15. Thus they probably have to pick and choose what they can get done each day knowing there will be unforeseeable gaps.

 

[tow_dog]

I have sent multiple quote requests. Apparently Boeing distribution isn’t interested in selling to individuals. A couple of the others require a minimum of 100 rivets which would be ok but the quote came back at $2700 for 100 rivets…

Vans store says they have them in stock for $1.10 each...I ordered a few to have a spares, but havnt gotten them yet. I also havnt been told they are backordered ...yet

 

[Louise Hose]

Looking at the parts being joined, not sure the grip length of a -2 rivet is long enough. It only has a grip range of .0625-.125.

Maybe Louise can chime in…

One of the call outs has to be incorrect…

I received and used the CR3213-4-3s. They set just fine (except the two that I mucked up). Cross the -2s out and use -3 in this case.

By the way, Van's has them in stock for $1.10ea. Only problem is the $20 shipping charge for items that will/can be slipped into a padded envelope.

Louise

 

[N8DAV8R]

I might be wrong but, given the nature of some of their issues and their locale away from a larger city I expect keeping a sufficient and well trained employee population is not easy for them. And this gets worse as they get bigger. The really big hurdle will be when they transition to producing SLSA's in their other product lines... which Rian indicated was the plan for the RV-15. Thus they probably have to pick and choose what they can get done each day knowing there will be unforeseeable gaps.

Van's has been producing SLSA RV-12s for many years. This is not a transition in their other product lines, it's just another model that will eventually be added. They doubled their capacity for SLSA production last year. From some conversations I have had with people in the industry I think they are working on some creative ideas to expand even more.

 

[Louise Hose]

So, Paul went through his inventory of CherryMax rivets today and found something interesting. Can you see the issue? These were bought at B&B during AirVenture several years ago for our Tundra project. Same label, but....

Trust...but verify!

 

[rocketman1988]

Parts Base has several suppliers with multiple thousands, Boeing Distribution with 211,000 Textron with 91,000. Search for equivalent part numbers such as CR3213-4-03, M7885/2-4-03, S2906-4-3, or the NAS number NAS9301B-4-03. Pricing is all over the place but they are available. I've seen as low as $0.27 per to $14+ for 1. Seems bulk sales of numbers in thousands gets best price, no surprise there, but they are available. Boeing Distribution has them marked as overstock clearance priced FWIW.

The problem is you have to have an account with Boeing distribution and although I had an avail account many years ago, I have had no luck creating an account with Boeing distribution services.

If you know of a way, please share…

 

[TShort]

I was asked to submit KAI issues and similar issues at: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/278c1b41e2084280a8037f4af3bf29c2

So far, it has been a black hole (except an acknowledgment receipt) but hopefully they are getting and processing the information.

Thanks for sharing that. It is a much simpler submission than the one from the QR code.

 

[Ironflight]

Just for fun, I went to check the B&B web site for CR3213-4-3….it was running kind of slow - maybe I wasn’t the only one searching?

Unfortunately, while they have 120 different CherryMax sizes listed, they don’t have any of the CR3213-4-3 or the oversized versions.

 

[rocketman1988]

Parts Base has several suppliers with multiple thousands, Boeing Distribution with 211,000 Textron with 91,000. Search for equivalent part numbers such as CR3213-4-03, M7885/2-4-03, S2906-4-3, or the NAS number NAS9301B-4-03. Pricing is all over the place but they are available. I've seen as low as $0.27 per to $14+ for 1. Seems bulk sales of numbers in thousands gets best price, no surprise there, but they are available. Boeing Distribution has them marked as overstock clearance priced FWIW.

Also checked Textron, they will not part with their inventory unless you are a textron business partner; you can order them but there is a 200+ day lead time estimate and no price.

No response from Boeing distribution services but it would not surprise me if the response is the same.

Might be easier to modify the design than to try to come up with Unobtanium rivets…

Just for fun, I went to check the B&B web site for CR3213-4-3….it was running kind of slow - maybe I wasn’t the only one searching?

Unfortunately, while they have 120 different CherryMax sizes listed, they don’t have any of the CR3213-4-3 or the oversized versions.

…and I have called textron and Boeing distribution services with no luck. In fact, textron said they were not providing to anyone but their own businesses.

 

[543TB]

Also checked Textron, they will not part with their inventory unless you are a textron business partner; you can order them but there is a 200+ day lead time estimate and no price.

No response from Boeing distribution services but it would not surprise me if the response is the same.

Might be easier to modify the design than to try to come up with Unobtanium rivets…

…and I have called textron and Boeing distribution services with no luck. In fact, textron said they were not providing to anyone but their own businesses.

I have a "dealer" number with textron. As of this morning when I logged into their site it showed no stock.

 

[rocketman1988]

I have a "dealer" number with textron. As of this morning when I logged into their site it showed no stock.

The nice lady on the phone implied they had some but wouldn’t sell them…but I’m not a dealer so that’s about all I could get from her.

 

[543TB]

The nice lady on the phone implied they had some but wouldn’t sell them…but I’m not a dealer so that’s about all I could get from her.

Sounds about right.

Do we know if anyone has actually spoken to a human at Van's about this issue?

 

[docjjrmd]

Also checked Textron, they will not part with their inventory unless you are a textron business partner; you can order them but there is a 200+ day lead time estimate and no price.I get how hard and exp

No response from Boeing distribution services but it would not surprise me if the response is the same.

Might be easier to modify the design than to try to come up with Unobtanium rivets…

…and I have called textron and Boeing distribution services with no luck. In fact, textron said they were not providing to anyone but their own businesses.

When I posted, I assumed that Van's would be remediating the issue. I just wanted to point out that there is inventory out there and I'd be surprised to find out Van's doesn't have an account with Boeing Distribution. I get that an individual purchasing a limited number could have problems and be price prohibitive but Van's appears to need several thousands.

 

[tow_dog]

Sounds about right.

Do we know if anyone has actually spoken to a human at Van's about this issue?

Spoken, no, but I emailed Clarissa at Vans support late last night and she replied about 6:30am this morning that she would ship me out replacement rivets and a shipping label to return the incorrect ones. I did mention to her that I heard about the issue yesterday on VAF, so I think they know it is not an isolated incident.

 

[rocketman1988]

Spoken, no, but I emailed Clarissa at Vans support late last night and she replied about 6:30am this morning that she would ship me out replacement rivets and a shipping label to return the incorrect ones. I did mention to her that I heard about the issue yesterday on VAF, so I think they know it is not an isolated incident.

So I was hoping someone can verify some measurements.

Given that the parts box shows CR3213-4-3 rivets and Section 27 calls out CR3213-4-2 rivets, I decided to look into how it goes together, as I am not quite there yet.

Looking at the inboard mixing box, the brackets are made from .050 sheet.

The aft spar where these rivet will pass through consists of the spar which is .050 and a doubler which is .050.

The Cove rib that is in the stack is .032.

The stack consisting of the mixer box, rear spar, rear spar doubler, and cove rib is therefore .050 + .050 + .050 + .032 = 0.182.

The advertised grip range on a CR3213-4-2 is 0 .063 - 0.125.

The advertised grip range on the CR3213-4-3 is 0.126 - 0.187.

Therefore, unless I am missing something, a CR3213-4-2 rivet WILL NOT WORK in that location, even in the areas where there is no Cove rib.

Can someone that is to this point verify that those rivets NEED to be -3 in length?

 

[Ironflight]

So I was hoping someone can verify some measurements.

Given that the parts box shows CR3213-4-3 rivets and Section 27 calls out CR3213-4-2 rivets, I decided to look into how it goes together, as I am not quite there yet.

Looking at the inboard mixing box, the brackets are made from .050 sheet.

The aft spar where these rivet will pass through consists of the spar which is .050 and a doubler which is .050.

The Cove rib that is in the stack is .032.

The stack consisting of the mixer box, rear spar, rear spar doubler, and cove rib is therefore .050 + .050 + .050 + .032 = 0.182.

The advertised grip range on a CR3213-4-2 is 0 .063 - 0.125.

The advertised grip range on the CR3213-4-3 is 0.126 - 0.187.

Therefore, unless I am missing something, a CR3213-4-2 rivet WILL NOT WORK in that location, even in the areas where there is no Cove rib.

Can someone that is to this point verify that those rivets NEED to be -3 in length?

We used the Cherry tool to verify that yes indeed, you need 4-3’s there, and that is what Van’s has in the “tackle box”…..

 

[rocketman1988]

We used the Cherry tool to verify that yes indeed, you need 4-3’s there, and that is what Van’s has in the “tackle box”…..

Thanks! Not sure why the plans call out -2 rivets as they won't work.

I was sent (along with others) the wrong rivets, flush head instead of universal.

I received a back order package today but it is NOT mine. They included CR3213-4-2 rivets. That is why I was checking. I will be calling tomorrow to see who is missing a back order package and let them know that the rivets sent are the wrong ones...

 

[N8DAV8R]

So, like I mentioned earlier in this thread I did go back and do the full count of hardware in the boxes. While I was doing that the back of my mind was pondering what the costs would be to have a 10% overage, if I would want to pay for that, etc. I decided that maybe it does make sense to control things a little closer but coverage for occasional mishaps is probably better. Mine was pretty accurate and limited to the backorders, though I didn't count the ones that had dozens of units. There was one thing missing. The NAS1097AD3-4 rivet of which there should be 4, I only got 3. I even sifted through the rivets one each side to be sure it didn't get mixed in.

They shorted me 1 of 4 rivets. Now I have to request, and they have to ship me 1 rivet. I'm really surprised that this is a game Van's has decided was a good idea to play.

1 rivet.

 

[TShort]

So, like I mentioned earlier in this thread I did go back and do the full count of hardware in the boxes. While I was doing that the back of my mind was pondering what the costs would be to have a 10% overage, if I would want to pay for that, etc. I decided that maybe it does make sense to control things a little closer but coverage for occasional mishaps is probably better. Mine was pretty accurate and limited to the backorders, though I didn't count the ones that had dozens of units. There was one thing missing. The NAS1097AD3-4 rivet of which there should be 4, I only got 3. I even sifted through the rivets one each side to be sure it didn't get mixed in.

They shorted me 1 of 4 rivets. Now I have to request, and they have to ship me 1 rivet. I'm really surprised that this is a game Van's has decided was a good idea to play.

1 rivet.

Nate - I have a bag of these that I bought years ago for nutplates ... DM me your address and I will drop a few in an envelope and send them your way.

 

[Louise Hose]

Do we know if anyone has actually spoken to a human at Van's about this issue?

Yes, Vans is aware of the problem (at least as of yesterday) and this thread. Paul mentioned it to Marc Cook while on the phone discussing other things and Marc, at least, is on it.

 

[TShort]

So, like I mentioned earlier in this thread I did go back and do the full count of hardware in the boxes. While I was doing that the back of my mind was pondering what the costs would be to have a 10% overage, if I would want to pay for that, etc. I decided that maybe it does make sense to control things a little closer but coverage for occasional mishaps is probably better. Mine was pretty accurate and limited to the backorders, though I didn't count the ones that had dozens of units. There was one thing missing. The NAS1097AD3-4 rivet of which there should be 4, I only got 3. I even sifted through the rivets one each side to be sure it didn't get mixed in.

They shorted me 1 of 4 rivets. Now I have to request, and they have to ship me 1 rivet. I'm really surprised that this is a game Van's has decided was a good idea to play.

1 rivet.

Also, it looks to me like the count is off on the 1097AD3-3.5 rivets, we will actually need 12 instead of 8 as supplied.

 

[N8DAV8R]

Also, it looks to me like the count is off on the 1097AD3-3.5 rivets, we will actually need 12 instead of 8 as supplied.

I think it's ok to say that Van's has not come anywhere close to exhibiting the level of inventory/packing/shipping precision that would be necessary for this tight of a control on things like rivets. This is not bashing, it's an objective observation. Pointing this out should fall under the umbrella of being willing to early adopt, but they need to respond appropriately on their end of things. It's just not working. Fix it.

They should consider a supplemental hardware supply, at least of these sub-cent items so us builders aren't out here horse trading rivets. This isn't new-kit specific like KAI errors or backordered unique parts. It's a bad look.