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base to final in an RV14A

larrys

Well Known Member
I flew with my friend in our RV14A the other day. It flew perfect! When we went around the pattern to land my friend overshot the runway, not by much but enough to need to correct. He dropped the wing 30 degrees (he's very by the book). I checked the speed and he was doing 85. I was holding on.
Talking afterward I mentioned I am real careful on that turn and limit myself to about 20 degrees and really monitor speed carefully, correct slowly or go round.
I assume an RV 14A would be very similar to a 172 base to final?

What are some rules of thumb from experience for those that have and RV14 for speeds around the pattern and tips for landing?
Thanks, Larry
 
People do turns at altitude all day long without problems, but when they get close to the ground, problems arise. Why? It's not a technical problem, it's a psychological problem -- people have an unfounded fear of overshooting the runway centerline, so they tighten up the turn not realizing that accepting the overshoot is safer and (unless there are closely spaced parallel runways) has no consequences.

I've presented on this topic in the past (NAFI Presentation on Base to Final Turns: https://www.mentorlive.site/program/60.html, 4,000+ views, 37 countries) and will be presenting on that same topic again at AirVenture on Tuesday at 10 in Forum 3.

Here's what a training exercise looks like, teaching to accept, not panic, at a runway overshoot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrBShb8BtFE It's eye-opening the first time and extremely boring the second...

My most recent research and flight test on AOA will be presented on Monday at 10 in the NAFI tent, immediately behind Garmin. Prof. Mike Bromfield writes, “There is a lot that the aviation industry doesn’t fully understand concerning AoA systems, displays, and their usage by pilots...” and he is oh, so correct.
 
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Knots or MPH ?

I flew with my friend in our RV14A the other day. It flew perfect! When we went around the pattern to land my friend overshot the runway, not by much but enough to need to correct. He dropped the wing 30 degrees (he's very by the book). I checked the speed and he was doing 85. I was holding on.
Talking afterward I mentioned I am real careful on that turn and limit myself to about 20 degrees and really monitor speed carefully, correct slowly or go round.
I assume an RV 14A would be very similar to a 172 base to final?

What are some rules of thumb from experience for those that have and RV14 for speeds around the pattern and tips for landing?
Thanks, Larry

Hopefully you have an AOA installed. My target is 75 knots base to final, 70 knots on final, 65 knots over the numbers, works out with plenty of margin to spare. 60 knots on flare. (Gusts factor add half) If I don't hear my AOA on flare I've landed to fast. (If you smell rubber, you definitely where to fast)

Added later, this is assuming half flaps on base, full flaps on final. Normally I add 1/4 flaps downwind across the numbers. If more than 10 knots cross wind don’t even think about full flaps. Half flaps ok. Home airport only has a north-south runway. Normally winds west to east.
 
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Practice slow flight turns at altitude and see what can and can’t be done. I think you will find your friend had plenty of safety margin, but best to convince yourself of that first hand so you have confidence in your plane.
 
"He was doing 85".

Sorry to be grumpy, but I wish we would all remember to specify Knots or MPH. For all I know he's doing 85 kph. And that's only the tip of the iceberg. I can bet that less than half of us have ever actually calibrated the airspeed indicator and know that "85 somthings" really is 86 somethings.
 
The problem I see with being afraid to bank steep in the pattern is that the pilot will then attempt to tighten the turn with rudder.. which results in a skid,,which could lead to a spin. Honestly, I don’t mind steep turns Base to final, even as much as 60 degrees, as long as they are coordinated and don’t haul back on the elevator. Heck, with sailplanes, it’s RECOMMENDED to make a steep base to final turn, as the limited elevator on a glider makes it almost impossible to stall in a steep bank. With powered planes, this isn’t true, and you could stall in a steep bank, however, with proper airspeed, awareness of your AOA or elevator loading, steep turns really shouldn’t be a problem. 30 degrees is pretty mild. Practice at altitude, with an experienced pilot, learn the difference between a slip and a skid, practice stalls in a slip and stalls in a skid.. you’ll realize why slips are safe, skids are not.
 
Determine DMMS and fly it until you are on final. Make all turns coordinated. Remember that you can't stall at zero G. I make all turns in the pattern at 30 degrees or more.
 
There is zero wrong with 30 degrees AOB in the pattern. If your limit is 20 I suspect your patterns are quite large. If 85 is knots your friend was to fast and that contributed to the overshoot. The increase in stall speed while maintaining level flight from wings level to 30 degrees AOB at RV speeds is about 3kts.
I highly recommend that everyone do some slow flight at altitude and explore how the aircraft handles. The first thing I do with a new aircraft is establish my actual stall speed in the landing configuration at altitude. This will give you a baseline relative to what your airspeed indicator reads. If the aircraft has AOA(it should!) I also make sure the calibration is correct. I then do some simulated pattern work and allow the aircraft to stall in 30 degrees of bank. This will give you a feel for what getting slow feels like and what you can expect in the pattern if you get slow. You will also know exactly when buffet onset will start.
 
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Excellent!

Excellent!
There is zero wrong with 30 degrees AOB in the pattern. If your limit is 20 I suspect your patterns are quite large. If 85 is knots your friend was to fast and that contributed to the overshoot. The increase in stall speed while maintaining level flight from wings level to 30 degrees AOB at RV speeds is about 3kts.
I highly recommend that everyone do some slow flight at altitude and explore how the aircraft handles. The first thing I do with a new aircraft is establish my actual stall speed in the landing configuration at altitude. This will give you a baseline relative to what your airspeed indicator reads. If the aircraft has AOA(it should!) I also make sure the calibration is correct. I then do some simulated pattern work and allow the aircraft to stall in 30 degrees of bank. This will give you a feel for what getting slow feels like and what you can expect in the pattern if you get slow. You will also know exactly when buffet onset will start.
 
People do turns at altitude all day long without problems, but when they get close to the ground, problems arise. Why? It's not a technical problem, it's a psychological problem -- people have an unfounded fear of overshooting the runway centerline, so they tighten up the turn when accepting the overshoot is safer and (unless there are closely spaced parallel runways) has no consequences.

I've presented on this topic in the past (NAFI Presentation on Base to Final Turns: https://www.mentorlive.site/program/60.html, 4,000+ views, 37 countries) and will be presenting on that same topic again at AirVenture on Tuesday at 10 in Forum 3.

Here's what a training exercise looks like, teaching to accept, not panic, at a runway overshoot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrBShb8BtFE It's eye-opening the first time and extremely boring the second...

My most recent research and flight test on AOA will be presented on Monday at 10 in the NAFI tent, immediately behind Garmin. Prof. Mike Bromfield writes, “There is a lot that the aviation industry doesn’t fully understand concerning AoA systems, displays, and their usage by pilots...” and he is oh, so correct.

Ed,
I watched your video. To me as a new pilot, it was very informative. I didnt know there was such a think at a spiral. It makes total sense now and I understand the difference. I think I will watch it again and get some more instruction.
 
Ed,
I watched your video. To me as a new pilot, it was very informative. I didnt know there was such a think at a spiral. It makes total sense now and I understand the difference. I think I will watch it again and get some more instruction.

Thanks for the kind words.

The plan is that I'll be flying past your part of the world on the Tuesday morning before Oshkosh. I'd be happy to fly with you and show you these phenomena -- not a full lesson, just a demonstration of the botched base to final turn / low speed spiral, and the deliberate runway overshoot. A twenty minute flight or so.

If you're interested, send me a PM with name, email, and phone number.

Blessings!

Ed
 
Overshooting and correcting with rudder.....

The problem I see with being afraid to bank steep in the pattern is that the pilot will then attempt to tighten the turn with rudder.. which results in a skid, which could lead to a spin.

I think this has been discussed before. When I was getting checked out in an RV-4 before SuzieQ was flying, Dean Hall took me out in his (I was in the back seat) and, at the end of one of our flights, we were at altitude and he said: 'OK; we are going 90 degrees to that road. Imagine that is the runway, set up for a base to final turn and overshoot it. You will be in a bank and try to line the nose up with the runway using the rudder.' I did that and, not even applying too much rudder to push the nose over, the airplane snapped and we were instantly in a near spin.

I believe this is what happens: the 'down' wing in a turn is going slower relative to the 'up' wing. Push the nose around with the rudder and the 'down' wing is now flying slower (almost backwards in relation to the rest of the airplane) lift is lost, causing the down wing to stall. At a steeper bank the up wing might also exceed the stalling AOA and stall, causing the up wing to stall. Either way: NOT a good situation close to the ground.

Bottom line: don't do that.....:eek:
 
Regarding the "zero g" comment ... he is correct. Unloading the aircraft will result in less g, until zero g, and then negative g. Understand the relationship between AOA and flying the aircraft, and you will never again be saddled by an over-conservative "rules of thumb" that in truth, may only get you into more trouble. The new "best practice" mantra for Upset Recovery is "Recognize, push, roll, thrust" as required. The plane will fly if the AOA is below critical, so you can still control the aircraft, allowing more time to repair the error and fly away.

As has been said by others here before, if any part of your flight regime drives a question you can't answer fully, get someone to explain it, or better yet, train to it and overcome the issue.

My recommendation to any pilot is to learn the corners of the envelope of your craft and explore them frequently in a responsible manner. The more you really know about flying the more capable and safer you'll be.
 
Larry,

I know you have an RV-14, not an RV-8, but you can use these RV-8 numbers for reference when you do your high altitude envelope exploration.

A professional test pilot did stall testing in his RV-8. At 1500#, full flaps, and 20 degrees of bank simulating a final turn, he found the stall was at 45 knots.
 
I believe this is what happens: the 'down' wing in a turn is going slower relative to the 'up' wing. Push the nose around with the rudder and the 'down' wing is now flying slower (almost backwards in relation to the rest of the airplane) lift is lost, causing the down wing to stall. At a steeper bank the up wing might also exceed the stalling AOA and stall, causing the up wing to stall. Either way: NOT a good situation close to the ground.

Bottom line: don't do that.....:eek:

Remember a stall is not directly caused by going too slow - it’s exceeding the critical angle of attack. Usually in your scenario (too much rudder) the resulting skid causes the fuselage to obstruct the air flow to the down wing, resulting in loss of lift, but not a stall yet. (The inside wing also sees slightly less velocity, but it’s the fuselage blanking that usually dominates). But as the wing starts to move down, the relative wind moves to a higher angle, exceeds the critical angle and then it stalls. With the excess rudder it often snaps into a spin. Sometimes the pilot will try to raise the wing with ailerlon, but this changes the chord direction to an even higher angle of attack!
 
I think this has been discussed before. When I was getting checked out in an RV-4 before SuzieQ was flying, Dean Hall took me out in his (I was in the back seat) and, at the end of one of our flights, we were at altitude and he said: 'OK; we are going 90 degrees to that road. Imagine that is the runway, set up for a base to final turn and overshoot it. You will be in a bank and try to line the nose up with the runway using the rudder.' I did that and, not even applying too much rudder to push the nose over, the airplane snapped and we were instantly in a near spin.

I believe this is what happens: the 'down' wing in a turn is going slower relative to the 'up' wing. Push the nose around with the rudder and the 'down' wing is now flying slower (almost backwards in relation to the rest of the airplane) lift is lost, causing the down wing to stall. At a steeper bank the up wing might also exceed the stalling AOA and stall, causing the up wing to stall. Either way: NOT a good situation close to the ground.

Bottom line: don't do that.....:eek:

Exactly! Another thing that happens when someone applies “bottom” rudder in a turn is that they will naturally apply opposite aileron to attempt to keep the AOB from increasing. Now with the bottom rudder slowing the inboard wing, and the pilot applying opposite aileron which deflects the inboard aileron down, the AOA on that inboard wing is increasing towards the stalling AOA. When it stalls, it’ll drop more and you’ll be upside down in a blink.
 
Regarding the "zero g" comment ... he is correct. Unloading the aircraft will result in less g, until zero g, and then negative g. Understand the relationship between AOA and flying the aircraft, and you will never again be saddled by an over-conservative "rules of thumb" that in truth, may only get you into more trouble. The new "best practice" mantra for Upset Recovery is "Recognize, push, roll, thrust" as required. The plane will fly if the AOA is below critical, so you can still control the aircraft, allowing more time to repair the error and fly away.

As has been said by others here before, if any part of your flight regime drives a question you can't answer fully, get someone to explain it, or better yet, train to it and overcome the issue.

My recommendation to any pilot is to learn the corners of the envelope of your craft and explore them frequently in a responsible manner. The more you really know about flying the more capable and safer you'll be.


Uh, I am well aware of the aerodynamics, and I agree with unloading the wing, however, the question still remains. Where in the pattern are you at zero g?
 
The post about the newer flight training for loss of control situations is actual a procedure designed for transport category aircraft to cover every type of potential in flight upset. It is also designed to cover both excellent stick and rudder pilots and those with perhaps less skill that are becoming more common at airlines. They do not in fact want you to go to zero G but the push portion does involve unloading the aircraft. Officially about .5 G but taught as push until light in the seat.
I think the point the poster was making is the first step should be to reduce the AOA to the point where the wing is flying again. In most RV’s that simply involves releasing the back pressure on the stick. A push to a true zero G in the pattern is going to result in an extremely nose low attitude very quickly. Try it at altitude and it will surprise you!
As I mentioned in an earlier post the various type stalls should be explored at altitude as part of any aircraft checkout. The procedures do not transfer directly from other aircraft. A simple example is approaching stall training taught by CFI’s. Generally they seem to teach firewalling the power instantly while pushing the nose down. This works fine in a low powered trainer but is perhaps not the best method for a RV where releasing back pressure and a smooth increase in power produces a more controllable result. Torque can be real in a RV!
 
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I think the point the poster was making is the first step should be to reduce the AOA to the point where the wing is flying again. In most RV’s that simply involves releasing the back pressure on the stick. A push to a true zero G in the pattern is going to result in an extremely nose low attitude very quickly.

This goes right back to Ed's talk on the danger of spirals in the pattern. Ed's research shows as much as 50% of low altitude handling crashes are not stall/spins. The wing is flying.

They bank quite safely at lower speeds. My RV7 stalls around 43 knots with flaps down. That's plenty of stall margin to bank normally (up to 45 degrees) at 70 knots in the pattern without stalling.

The bottom line, know how to fly are our aircraft at lower speeds. Practice at altitude and find what your plane can do safely. Maybe grab a CFI.

Sure unload a little back pressure if you need to go into a steeper bank. It is no magic solution. Too much pitch down is going to get you just as dead.
 
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Sunrise Aviation

The Sunrise Aviation turnback video is very informative. Cessna 172, up to 60 degree bank, occasional beep from the stall warning.
Also the RV4 video using an aurol angle of attack presentation.
 
Bank

Anyone ever watch an Ag Pilot work a field. If they were 20 degree bank limited they would quickly hear the words "you're fired".
 
Physical attributes

I’ve been flying for 27 years. And I just learned something yesterday at FlightSafety International. You should try this with a Safety pilot, of course but as pilots flying from the left seat. We tend to raise the nose in a left-hand turn subconsciously. And then a right hand turn we tend to drop the nose. I see this in my students a lot as well if they overshoot based a final in a left pattern they get slow because as they bank to the left, they raise the nose and lose 5 to 10 kn. My instructor didn’t have a good reason for this and I don’t know either. Maybe it’s geometry of your elbow or something to do with your inner senses. But if you close your eyes and turn to the left, 90% of the time you raise the nose and opposite if you turn to the right, this could be a bad situation based a final, and I think it’s lead to a lot of people who are focused outside on the runway, getting the airplane slow and we all know that a bank and slow is going to lead to a stall prematurely. The book stick, and rudder has a little to say about this as well particularly in the bank. It’s worth a read.
 
The Sunrise Aviation turnback video is very informative. Cessna 172, up to 60 degree bank, occasional beep from the stall warning.
Also the RV4 video using an aurol angle of attack presentation.

Watch the RV3 from 300' and no airspeed indicator.
 
Capt. Jepp

Taking some liberty with the words of Capt. Elrey Jeppeson: A pilot is a machine operator, manipulating the controls of an airplane. A Aviator is a artist whose canvas is the sky and whose brush is the airplane.
Today in the US we have a serious shortage of aviators and a serious excess of pilots.
 
I think some people forget that pattern work is a geometry and energy management problem. The rote procedures most people learned early on were there to keep us safe until we learned and advanced beyond that baseline. That said, if you constrain your flying to 1000 foot patterns, 3 degree glide slope, 1 mile final and xx airspeed for the rest of your flying career, that results in a fairly consistent (and limited) sight picture on your trip around the pattern. Its going to look a lot like your first flights with an instructor, in fact.

If the real goal is to touch down on the runway in a certain spot and energy state (which it is) then the process to get there can vary quite a bit. If you back up from the touchdown point and the approach was a military style 180 degree turn from downwind with the wing "maxed out" on AOA the whole time, what does the bank angle and pattern size look like for a typical RV? It looks a LOT different than what most of us were taught in 172's and Cherokees. Yet it is just as safe - just requires more refined skills.

The airplane does not know "angle of bank". The airplane lives in a 3 dimensional world and it is up to the pilot to fit that geometry into the space between "now" and "touchdown" so the wing remains below the critical AoA and the airplane meets the runway in the proper attitude and energy state.
 
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Uh, I am well aware of the aerodynamics, and I agree with unloading the wing, however, the question still remains. Where in the pattern are you at zero g?

Not speaking for anyone here but the point I took (and live by) is that the pilot has instant control of unstalling the wing by unloading to some degree. In the most extreme example, "zero g" will allow "any" bank angle without exceeding the critical AoA.

Most of my approaches are 180 and power off. In the Rocket, that is significantly steeper than the FAA standard 3 degrees. That significant nose down component also allows a corresponding increase in bank angle beyond the FAA standard while still comfortably below the critical AoA (theres that geometry thing again). My personal goal of "perfection" is to set myself up so that when I come off the perch I ride the max AoA all the way around and maintain the exact same angle of bank until roundout. That rarely happens however, so if I find myself in an overshoot I'm limited to 2 options: 1. dumping the nose a bit more and tightening up the bank angle, or 2. Bailing out of the approach and going around.

Option 1 will only work if I have the physical room remaining to accommodate this new "steeper" approach path. If I do have this room in the bank, it also means I screwed up twice, because in addition to the overshoot, I'm also too high. But it does illustrate the value of "unloading the wing".

Option 2 is usually preferable because if I'm already AT the critical AoA, then ther is no more "pull harder" left in the bank. Bailing out is the only geometry solution left.

To bring this back to the RV world, there is admitedly a big difference between the power off glide profile of a Rocket or draggy biplane and a light RV-9 with a fixed pitch prop, but the principles are the same - If one keeps under the critical AoA, the airplane will not stall, regardless of bank angle.
 
AirVenture presentations on AOA and Base to Final turns

I'll be covering a lot of these topics in my first two Oshkosh forums.

Monday at 10 in the NAFI tent, I'll be discussing realistic expectations for AOA and its many unacknowledged characteristics. This presentation includes the limitations of AOA-based guidance systems and the limitations of aural guidance systems.

On Tuesday at 10, in Forum 3, I'll be discussing base to final turns. The fascinating question is, why does nobody lose control in turns at altitude, but mostly close to the ground? The answer is in psychology, not in pilot skills.

It's also interesting to note that all the articles on continuous turns to final (at least all the ones I've seen) compare large radius continuous base to final turns with tight radius square patterns. I bet that a comparison of large radius turn rectangular patterns to tight radius continuous base to final turns would give the opposite result.

In both of these presentations, lots of subtleties and gotchas will be discussed, details that are little known if that. If you want homework, check out NASA TN D-6210 from the year 1971, easy to find online. It documents numerous phenomena that the AOA crowd would not like to read.
 
Been flying for 50+ years never heard the term DMMS. Least you could do for us old codgers would be to put the abbreviation spelled out in parentheses.
 
Been flying for 50+ years never heard the term DMMS. Least you could do for us old codgers would be to put the abbreviation spelled out in parentheses.

Boyd,

I agree; also been flying for 50+ years and never heard the term DMMS.

Acronym Finder gives these answers:
Dynamic Memory Management System
Department of Materials and Medical Sciences
Defined Minimum Maneuvering Speed (aviation)
distributed micromotion system
Distributed Multimedia-Mapping Server
Division Materiel Management System
Dans un Monde Multiservice (French cleaning company)
Distributed Method Management System
Data Management Mission Statement

I'm guessing it's #3
Noboby talked about Vx or Vy back then either.
 
Been flying for 50+ years never heard the term DMMS. Least you could do for us old codgers would be to put the abbreviation spelled out in parentheses.

Defined Minimum Maneuvering Speed. It’s a speed that has been promoted as a rule of thumb (some would say an over-simplification or crutch) above which you can’t stall. This video kind of goes through it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK8LHmoiGSc

Not putting a dog in this hunt ;) just repeating for the old guys in the back :D
 
Yep, I’m back. I don’t doubt that it gives you adequate feedback. What I wanted to know is when you are at zero g in the pattern…

Never. Less than one g anytime I unload because of impending stall or just push over during engine out on take-off/turn back practice.
 
You can download a copy of NASA TN D-6210 "Flight Evaluation of Angle of Attack as a Control Parameter in General Aviation Aircraft" here: https://www.flyonspeed.org/technical-resources. The report was published in 1971.

Turns out you can over-shoot final out of an overhead pattern if you excite the long period phugoid in the base turn: https://youtu.be/ptgXddtZxVs. Super handy to have a cue that tells me I'm "fast" relative to desired state so I have SA that's happening...The mighty RV-4 with the lightweight, fixed pitch prop just doesn't want to come down :D. Also handy when I overshoot (or pull closed) and it tells me to stop pulling.

Fly safe,

Vac
 
not to point fingers at anybody, but isn't this what phase one is for. to determine the handling of the aircraft? didn't anybody actually test to find out what stall speeds are with various angles of bank?

this is a big problem i see in the RV world, RV's are so common and everybody believes that they are all the same and simple bore holes in the sky until the hobbs meter hits that magic number with no real data collected.

bob buns
RV-4
 
Phase 1...magic 40h

not to point fingers at anybody, but isn't this what phase one is for. to determine the handling of the aircraft? didn't anybody actually test to find out what stall speeds are with various angles of bank?
this is a big problem i see in the RV world, RV's are so common and everybody believes that they are all the same and simple bore holes in the sky until the hobbs meter hits that magic number with no real data collected.
bob buns
RV-4

Well, this has been a previous topic. I have known people who had other pilots fly their airplanes just so they could get the 40 hours on the Hobbs. Hopefully, that is the exception rather than the rule.

I had over 40 hours of detailed flight cards for every flight during the initial testing. I took my job as a test pilot quite seriously! Did I think SuzieQ had some dangerous quirks that would reach up and bite me? It is a great and well-proven design with a good reputation. But she was a brand-new airplane and I was the first (and only) one to fly her. And no: I did not find any freaky areas of the envelope. Surprising, yes (AMAZING aircraft!). Power on stalls were a hoot!:D (Is this what straight up looks like?) I had a lot of data and, at the end of the 40 hours, was not done! I continued through my remaining flight cards, then made up more to chart the data I thought I needed. I was having too much fun to just stop. AND I was learning a lot about this brand-new airplane and how to be a better pilot flying her. I was building more confidence to "expand the envelope" as I became familiar with this new-to-me aircraft. There is an "end of test period" note in my log book but the Flight Cards continued after that, with occasional reverting to Phase 1 testing after the 40 hours to expand further what I was exploring. At the end of the formal Phase 1, I felt I had explored all the areas I needed to know about but continued from there to better know the airplane. And its pilot.

It is refreshing to see Ryan Drake's (Draker) progress as he works his way through Phase 1 testing accumulating real and useful data! He is testing his airplane as he gets to know its advantages and weaknesses. And building his piloting skills along the way. I think he might be a model example of how this should be done. He's not the only one doing Phase 1 in earnest; he is just someone who has been keeping us up on his progress and making us think about our own testing.....;)
 
From the Flight Deck....

You can download a copy of NASA TN D-6210 "Flight Evaluation of Angle of Attack as a Control Parameter in General Aviation Aircraft" here: https://www.flyonspeed.org/technical-resources. The report was published in 1971.

Turns out you can over-shoot final out of an overhead pattern if you excite the long period phugoid in the base turn: https://youtu.be/ptgXddtZxVs. Super handy to have a cue that tells me I'm "fast" relative to desired state so I have SA that's happening...The mighty RV-4 with the lightweight, fixed pitch prop just doesn't want to come down :D. Also handy when I overshoot (or pull closed) and it tells me to stop pulling.

Fly safe,

Vac

Great videos! Thanks for posting! No better airplane to be doing this type of videos in!
 
[This is a partial quote] "didn't anybody actually test to find out what stall speeds are with various angles of bank?
RV-4

I only use this quote to point out that aircraft wings don't stall at a certain "speed". They stall at a certain "angle of attack". AoA for short.

When most folks talk about stall "speed", what they really mean (and sometimes unfortunately don't know it) is they mean the ONE G stall INDICATED airspeed.

Wings don't sense airspeed. The wings D.G.A.S. about airspeed. Wings only care about AoA (Angle of Attack) The "ANGLE" is almost always described as the angle between the mean wing chord, and the local airflow.

I know I'm talking to the choir here, but a wing can be stalled at nearly any "airspeed". If you want to stall it at a high IAS, you can do it. Just pull back on the stick until the stall AoA is exceeded. You might be pulling 3 or 4 G's at the time, but the wing will be stalled. It will buffet, and send you lot's of feedback through the stick as it stalls.

To repeat, and to emphasize the point: When most folks (love that word...) talk about "stall speed", they really mean: One G, Level Flight, IAS at stall AoA.

In all RV-series aircraft, and MOST GA aircraft, the stick should be considered to be nothing more than a control that DIRECTLY changes the AoA.

Your aircraft, no matter what aircraft it is, will stall at the same AoA every time, no matter what the IAS is reading. The STICK POSITION will be the same in every case. The force required on the stick to move it to the stall Position will vary with airspeed.

The only thing that would change the Stick Position at stall would be a change in wing/lift configuration, such as changing the flap setting.

Sometimes you will see references to "Accelerated Stalls." These are merely stall performed at an IAS that is higher than the One G IAS.

For example, let's say that your aircraft stalls with the stick exactly 2 inches forward of full aft stick. No matter what your airspeed or angle of bank is, your airplane will ALWAYS stall when the stick is pulled back to 2 inched forward of full aft stick. If you are at a high IAS, you will have to pull much harder on the stick to get it back to the 2 inches forward of full back stick. And you might be pulling a lot of "G".

Or if you are flying very slowly, you might only have to pull back very slightly on the stick to stall the wing.

It is astounding to me how many licensed pilots don't understand this. Due to their lack of understanding, some of them are now no longer with us.

A vast majority of the pilots that DO understand this are still happily flying.

Popcorn popped, and standing by for incoming.......... :rolleyes:
 
Stall Angle of Attack....

I only use this quote to point out that aircraft wings don't stall at a certain "speed". They stall at a certain "angle of attack". AoA for short.

When most folks talk about stall "speed", what they really mean (and sometimes unfortunately don't know it) is they mean the ONE G stall INDICATED airspeed.

Wings don't sense airspeed. The wings D.G.A.S. about airspeed. Wings only care about AoA (Angle of Attack) The "ANGLE" is almost always described as the angle between the mean wing chord, and the local airflow.

I learned to fly in Cubs. They are a great airplane to learn to fly in for multiple reasons. Back then angle of attack was something you saw on a diagram when you were studying for your written. But when you were flying you could look out along that big long wing and SEE what that meant. I was able to look down that wing and see what that diagram was showing me! (As well as seeing the "twist" in the wing to decrease the built-in AOA further out on the wing!) One practical application early on was on final: want to come down: pull back (increase AOA); want to come down faster: pull back harder (increasing the AOA further!). Oh! I SEE! I get that now! Early learning. AOA indicator back then (and, magically, now): the position of the stick!

I know I'm talking to the choir here, but a wing can be stalled at nearly any "airspeed". If you want to stall it at a high IAS, you can do it. Just pull back on the stick until the stall AoA is exceeded. You might be pulling 3 or 4 G's at the time, but the wing will be stalled. It will buffet, and send you lot's of feedback through the stick as it stalls.

The Cub did a pretty good job of that!

It is astounding to me how many licensed pilots don't understand this. Due to their lack of understanding, some of them are now no longer with us.

I was watching as a J-3 Cub was buzzing the pilot's girlfriends house. Low and slow with a tight turn (increased AOA) and the airplane stalled and spun in as we watched. You can kill yourself in a J-3 about as easily as you can in any other airplane..... An example is in the post following PCHunt's post.....:(

Know your airplane.....fly safely.....
 
Thanks Navy!

Yup, the airplane stalls just fine at 5+ G’s: https://youtu.be/aANG3-9JcOw

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What happens when you overshoot final? Of course, the answer is “it depends…” in this case, on how hard the pilot pulls. AOA increases directly with G. If you “G the airplane up,” you “spike the AOA” and eat into any margin you have. If there is any skid input (rudder in direction of turn and opposite aileron to “keep the bank from getting too steep”) and you accidently spike the AOA too far (i.e., exceed the critical angle of attack), the inside wing quits flying, now: https://youtu.be/cLg_LGjpL9Q. If, however, the rudder is coordinated, then the airplane simply stalls: https://youtu.be/BPD5xk1wgOw which you can recover from, even at low altitude by reducing angle of attack. Ed is correct to point out that things get visually interesting when you operate near the ground. We spent a lot of time in the military training pilots to safely operate at low altitude. Although a forum discussion is helpful, he’s also spot on that you should receive training in how to over-shoot if you haven’t had that experience. Regardless the basic rule applies: if in doubt, go around! If your technique for executing that decision matrix is a maximum bank angle and minimum airspeed based on G load, that’ll work too :). Listening to AOA just makes it easy for knuckle-draggers like me.

So, what happens with an overshoot occurs? Again, it depends. If the airplane is unloaded (i.e., G is reduced), turn rate will decrease, but stall margin will be increased. If the airplane is loaded (i.e., G is increased), turn rate will increase and stall margin will be reduced. Let’s look at the later case. I picked the 4th pattern in the video in post #42 (5:34 elapsed time) above to pull some data so we can see what's happening during an overshoot.

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Here we can see exactly what’s going on in the overshoot. To “salvage” the pattern, I increase G to increase turn rate. AOA begins to immediately increase (which you can hear in the tone). Even after G is reduced, AOA continues to increase and speed continues to decrease for a bit (i.e., there is a lag effect). That’s clearer in this plot:

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In this case, I end up within about 5 knots of stall speed and 4 degrees or so of the absolute angle of attack at which the wing stalls. Absolute angle of attack is the difference between the relative wind and the zero-lift line. For a cambered airfoil like the 23-series on the RV-4, zero-lift occurs at a negative angle of attack. This negative angle gets bigger as flaps are applied. This is why it’s critical an angle of attack system knows where the flaps are. It’s also critical that the system can handle a rapid G/AOA onset rate. There is also another aerodynamic effect that I’m using to my advantage in these demos: with a rapid increase in AOA, there is a momentary increase in CLmax; so I’ve actually got a bit more margin than the angle of attack system thinks I have, which helps achieve my “old, not bold, pilot” objective.

The other way I “cheat” to make this look more dramatic than it is how I physically move the flight controls. If you watch the video, you can see me moving the control stick. I’m using an old technique where the stick is only moving on one axis at a time: first I unload (ease the stick forward), then I roll (move the stick laterally), then I center the stick back up and smoothly apply G. The idea is to “unloaded, roll, set (bank angle), pull,” a distinct four-step process when I maneuver. It’s even easier to see in the high G stall video. You’ll also note I don’t hesitate to use two hands on the stick to make sure that it centered laterally. Any time you pull a center (floor mounted) stick with only one arm, there is a tendency to pull the stick in the direction of your elbow and make an aileron input even when you don’t intend to. We also have a tendency to move the stick in the direction we are looking when we turn our heads.

Fly safe,

Vac
 
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