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Ask a controller... (in memory of Tony Kelly - tkatc)

Good find....I stumbled on this yesterday while researching but it doesn't change the game. I treat EVERY aircraft like this. To me there is no difference.

I will add that the spirit of this paragraph tells me that "Experimental" pertains to those really special ops, one that is likely pre-briefed, planned and everybody knows what is going on and I probably have a briefing sheet in front of me describing the operation in its entirety.
 
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tkatc said:
Good find....I stumbled on this yesterday while researching but it doesn't change the game. I treat EVERY aircraft like this. To me there is no difference.

I will add that the spirit of this paragraph tells me that "Experimental" pertains to those really special ops, one that is likely pre-briefed, planned and everybody knows what is going on and I probably have a briefing sheet in front of me describing the operation in its entirety.
Click to expand...

OK... about "Special Handling"

Does a true sailplane that lands at a Class D airport require special handling by the FAA definition?

It possibly cannot taxi very clear of the runway, and certainly can't taxi on it's own down taxi ways.

It also most likely is not Experimental so the notify ATC bit is not acivated...
 
I don't know of any glider operations at any Class D airport. Nor C or B. If there is one I would assume it is by special permit and pre-coordinated, NOTAMed out and such.

To run such an operation, the airport cannot be all that busy, therefore there would be no need for a tower in the first place. So I doubt there is such a creature in existence but there is always an exception. :rolleyes:
 
tkatc said:
I don't know of any glider operations at any Class D airport. Nor C or B. If there is one I would assume it is by special permit and pre-coordinated, NOTAMed out and such.

To run such an operation, the airport cannot be all that busy, therefore there would be no need for a tower in the first place. So I doubt there is such a creature in existence but there is always an exception. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
There are routine glider operations at some Class D airports. Really not a big deal. If there is such an operation there would typically be a parallel runway or perhaps the gliders operate on the grass between runways.

I have landed gliders at Class D airports where that is not routine. It is easy to land so as to taxi off the runway on to a taxiway (maybe not true in an open class ship) but it is preferable to just land on the ramp. I have had controllers who had no objection to that but they said they "can't clear me to land on the ramp." I wouldn't try this at Sky Harbor.
 
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For some reason...I KNEW there would be an exception. :p:p

I assume the controllers work the "tow" aircraft but once the gliders are released they are sort of on thier own? Of course to allow this sort of operation there would have to be an LOA (letter of agreement) in place between the operators and ATC. The gliders would operate in accordance with the letter and probably wouldn't interfere with normal operations. Again, these are merely my assumptions because I obviously do not have any experience with this.
 
tkatc said:
For some reason...I KNEW there would be an exception. :p:p

I assume the controllers work the "tow" aircraft but once the gliders are released they are sort of on thier own? Of course to allow this sort of operation there would have to be an LOA (letter of agreement) in place between the operators and ATC. The gliders would operate in accordance with the letter and probably wouldn't interfere with normal operations. Again, these are merely my assumptions because I obviously do not have any experience with this.
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Like Larry, I have landed unplanned at a Class D towered airport.

If you are 6 miles out and the choices are bad fields, construction sites, a highway or the airport, guess which one usually gets chosen...:)

In my case they allowed me - but didn't actually clear me - to land on the under-run which was closer to the ramp than the rest of the runway.

I think the phrase they used was "pilot's choice" about the landing spot.

At six miles out, 1500 ft AGL should get you to a 500 ft pattern.
 
Crossing Canada

OK new question. While not IFR specific, it still requires the collective brain power found only here on VAF to answer. ;) Let's say I want to fly direct from Buffalo, NY (KBUF) to oh..... Flint, MI (KFNT). VFR flight. I start out in the USA and end up in the USA, but I have to cross Canada. I don't need to land (it's only 220 NM) so exactly what I'm I required to do and who do I have to talk to? Will I be handled strictly by American ATC or will I get handed off to the Canadians? Do I need a flight plan for this flight? I will cross the border and fly over Canada for about an hour, but who's in charge here? :p What other legal requirements come into play on a flight such as this? That'll be enough for now.

Regards,
 
I would like to know the answer to this as well....I suspect you will have to file a flight plan of some sort but this question is out of my league.:mad:
 
Is Mexico different than Canada ?

I'll be interested to find out as well. I know, when I was flying in Texas (Brownsville), you could not have a flight plan that flew over Mexican airspace. If you did, your flight plan and ATC services were terminated.
 
Overflying Canada

File VFR or IFR flight plan and write "Canadian Overflight" in remarks section.
Be in radio contact with ATC BEFORE entering Canadian airspace.
Remain in radio and radar contact while crossing Canada.
Handguns are not allowed in Canada without special permission. Keep that in mind in case you have to land in Canada.
Carry a passport just in case.
You might get a $17 bill in the mail for using Canadian ATC services.
See links below.
Joe
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=279166&postcount=22
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=277527&postcount=7
The Canadian government now charges U.S.-registered aircraft for ATC services based on the aircraft certified gross weight. The current fee as of March 2009 is $17.00 CAN per quarter for aircraft under 2 metric tons (4,410 lb gross)
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The Canadian government now charges U.S.-registered aircraft for ATC services based on the aircraft certified gross weight. The current fee as of March 2009 is $17.00 CAN per quarter for aircraft under 2 metric tons (4,410 lb gross)

----------------------

I believe that is the Federal charge, there is also a provincial tax on top of that depending on your landing place - or just land in Alberta that has no PST.

I'm not sure if you would get the provincial tax for an overflight...:)
 
humptybump said:
I'll be interested to find out as well. I know, when I was flying in Texas (Brownsville), you could not have a flight plan that flew over Mexican airspace. If you did, your flight plan and ATC services were terminated.
Click to expand...

If you ever shoot the BC Loc to Rwy 31 then you fly over Mexican airspace. As I understand it there is some agreement that allows US controllers to vector aircraft into Mexican airspace for this approach.
 
Thanks for the info guys. :D So it sounds pretty easy actually. Just file for a Canadian overflight and go. Weather permitting I have a trip to the Maine in a couple weeks, then on to Iowa. Thus the reason for my questions. I will have my passport and all other required docs. I have been researching this some as I may go to Canada in May with the plane as well. We have a project in Quesnel B.C. north of Kamloops around May 9th.

Thanks Again,

Mich48041 said:
File VFR or IFR flight plan and write "Canadian Overflight" in remarks section.
Be in radio contact with ATC BEFORE entering Canadian airspace.
Remain in radio and radar contact while crossing Canada.
Handguns are not allowed in Canada without special permission. Keep that in mind in case you have to land in Canada.
Carry a passport just in case.
You might get a $17 bill in the mail for using Canadian ATC services.
See links below.
Joe
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=279166&postcount=22
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=277527&postcount=7
Click to expand...

az_gila said:
The Canadian government now charges U.S.-registered aircraft for ATC services based on the aircraft certified gross weight. The current fee as of March 2009 is $17.00 CAN per quarter for aircraft under 2 metric tons (4,410 lb gross)

----------------------

I believe that is the Federal charge, there is also a provincial tax on top of that depending on your landing place - or just land in Alberta that has no PST.

I'm not sure if you would get the provincial tax for an overflight...:)
Click to expand...
 
tkatc said:
For some reason...I KNEW there would be an exception. :p:p

I assume the controllers work the "tow" aircraft but once the gliders are released they are sort of on thier own?...
Click to expand...
I don't think handling a glider is all that different than an airplane. Airplanes have limitations that controllers understand. You don't ask a C172 to climb to flight level 300 or maintain 260 knots and you don't ask a glider for an immediate climb or a go around. Usually gliders fly the opposite pattern side from powered aircraft but they are reasonably flexible because they aren't sinking all that fast. Performing a 360 for spacing would often be very feasible.

But no, they aren't just on their own; they have to coordinate with ATC just the same as other aircraft if they are in airspace that requires that. One example I am familiar with is the El Paso Class C airspace. There are very small corridors in this area that are not Class C or the restricted airspace from **** or a foreign country. If you are flying cross-country through here it is easiest to just contact El Paso Approach and it works just fine.
 
Overflying Canada

I've flown across Canada from North of Detroit at least a dozen times South to Ohio and East to NY and NH.
The rules are:
- Be on an open VFR or IFR flight plan (I've never mentioned Canada in the remarks but it can't hurt)
- Communication with ATC
- Have a transponder code from ATC
I've spoken to Canadian controllers on the eastbound flights (and westbound returns) and have never received a bill (so far anyway).

Now landing in Canada is a whole different story.
 
Curious controller statement

Returning from Georgia I filed two IFR flight plans with the second terminating at FYV Fayetteville, Arkansas. Approaching Little Rock I was vectored off airway for departing traffic with a statement that I would be vectored back on airway shortly by the next controller. That didn't happen but it was OK with me because the 310 heading was toward the destination airport. After another LIT approach controller I was handed off to Memphis Center who asked If I was flying direct to FYV and I told him no I was on a 310 vector. He said I see you have a slant uniform equipment suffix, can you fly direct to FYV and I said yes I could. The weather was turning IMC at this point. Eventually I was handed off to Razorback Approach. The controller stated that he was not sure he could get me to FYV direct from my position for a visual approach and it was stated in such a way that I knew he thought I might want to go somewhere else. I said if you vector me for the LDA Rwy 34 approach that should work. That is what was done and the flight ended successfully at my home base. Since runway 34 was in use I would have expected a statement about the current weather at Drake and to "expect the LDA Rwy 34 approach" since I was on an IFR flight plan. The intermediate comment about not being able to get me in direct for a visual approach is the curious comment. Is there a reluctance to handle experimental aircraft the same as production aircraft?

Bob Axsom
 
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Bob,
There are a few things I want to address here but please understand that there is a myriad of reasons as to why controllers do certain things. Being left on a 310 heading and then questioned about it leads me to believe the vector was not coordinated with the next controller and the receiving controller noticed you were off of your original route and correctly questioned it. This sort of thing happens from time to time but it is certainly not a safety concern. In this case it actually worked out a bit better for you.

You main question is a bit harder to guess at...if I had to pick something I'd say the controller assumed you wanted a visual approach since no approach had been requested. He knew the weather wouldn't allow a visual and wanted to get your intentions sooner rather than later so he could put you on an appropriate vector. Controllers don't want an aircraft (regardless of type or class) to truck straight to the field when a visual approach is unlikely then have to vector you all the way out for an appropriate approach. It is just inefficient.

Again these are all guesses since I do not have more information to clue me in. I will say that controllers are just like anybody else, some days are good days, others are bad. Different moods come and go...human nature I suppose.

The guys that trained me were "old school". Therefore, I am "old school". I like to get the job done with the least amount of transmissions possible. It is considered efficient and will serve me well when it gets busy. I know other controllers that talk so much it's disgusting. Some would say those controllers are inefficient, they are like the hot rod "spinning thier wheels" as the light turns green. Expending a lot of energy but not getting anywhere. This type of controller, when completing a short transmission, will often add "filler" (completely meaningless and sometimes confusing)to the transmission because they are so used to being long winded it just doesn't sound right when they actually spit out something short. I suppose the reason I am explaining this all to you is because I won't always be able to give you a logical explaination as to why some controllers do what they do.:)
 
Vectors or Restriction

Sometimes in the heat of the moment controllers don't get the word during a hand-off, so when I'm given a vector and/or altitude restriction and then told to contact the next controller, I'll open with:

"XYZ Departure, Bonanza 12345 heading 270 restricted three thousand"

- Brevity, clarity, trust... yet verify -

Don
 
That is sometimes helpful Don. I sometimes have the pilot inform the next controller of an instruction I have given but that is not exactly the "approved" way to do things in ATC land.
 
Short N-numbers

Hi Tony,

First off, congrats on your long XC! Good reading.

What's the best way to handle short N-numbers on initial call up to approach, ground, etc?

I ask because years ago I used to fly '38CT'. On initial call to approach, I'd report 'Archer 38CT' and on occasion I'd be asked for the full number and I'd reply back that '38CT' was it. In the interest of reducing radio chatter, I thought I'd try saying 'N38CT' but that only led to more confusion and more chatter. <sigh>

Thank you,
 
My full N number is N6NF, my call is "Experimental 6 November Foxtrot". Should I be doing something different?
 
I think you guys are doing it right. The 3 digit call sign does sound abbreviated and it might get questioned just to make sure but there is no harm in it. The 4 digit call sign should really never be questioned. Typically the length is 5 digits for a full call sign which can be abbreviated to 3 digits after the initial call thus a 4 digit call sign should be considered the full call sign. If you are annoyed by the inquiry I would suggest enunciating as clearly as possible on initial call, that may cut down on any confusion.

I may not answer this thread as quickly as I used to because I might be busy FLYING!!!!:D:D
 
This isn't instrument related but....tonight a friend and I are going to fly into our local Class C to get some practice (I haven't flown since I got my ticket 4 years ago and he hasn't done any ATC work other than when he was working on his). We thought it would be a good idea to go together so he has a little extra comfort level with me there as well.

Question is this: does the controller care to know that he/we are low time and are just there to practice? Should we let him know we're there to shoot touch and goes and that he/she should feel free to get rid of us if they're too busy?
 
No need to really tell them about your experience level. And no need to remind them that they can kick you out if they feel the need. They know.:D

Controllers have a sense of the experience level a pilot has just by the communication techniques he/she uses. Controllers basically want to know 3 things. WHO you are, WHERE you are, and WHAT you want. Try to keep transmissions short and sweet. And by all means, if you are not comfortable with the situation, let your desires be known. Offer up an alternative or leave it up to the controller.

Don't be intimidated by controlled airspace. YOU are the customer and we aim to provide a high level of service.
 
Got a stupid question

Hi,
This maybe a stupid question but it has gotten me in trouble several times. I fly from KHHR in So Cal. It has a control tower but is not very busy. Occasionally there are several planes in the pattern and a few on straight ins. Several times I have been on downwind and the controller says I am number three following a Cessna. Of course all the planes in the pattern are Cessnas. So I count the planes starting with the one just about to touch down and I follow number two. But the trouble comes in because I apparently cut some one off.
So my question, when I am number three, how do I count? Is the guy about to touch down number one and the guy on short final number two, or does the guy inside the fence not count and I start counting the guy on short final as number one?
I told you it was a stupid question, but it has happened a few times and I am starting to think that anyone inside the airport perimeter does not count and to start with the guy on short final. What is your take?
 
johnny stick said:
Hi,
This maybe a stupid question but it has gotten me in trouble several times. I fly from KHHR in So Cal. It has a control tower but is not very busy. Occasionally there are several planes in the pattern and a few on straight ins. Several times I have been on downwind and the controller says I am number three following a Cessna. Of course all the planes in the pattern are Cessnas. So I count the planes starting with the one just about to touch down and I follow number two. But the trouble comes in because I apparently cut some one off.
So my question, when I am number three, how do I count? Is the guy about to touch down number one and the guy on short final number two, or does the guy inside the fence not count and I start counting the guy on short final as number one?
I told you it was a stupid question, but it has happened a few times and I am starting to think that anyone inside the airport perimeter does not count and to start with the guy on short final. What is your take?
Click to expand...


As a former tower controller, I would count any aircraft that hasn't crossed the runway threshold. The airport I used to work at had dual runways, dual local controllers, and dozens of aircraft in the pattern this time of year. I'm sensitive to this situation since I lost a partner and a plane due to a mid-air from a student pilot making this mistake. I won't go into details, since the student pilot (not my partner) made more errors than just this one.

If the pattern is busy with multiple Cessnas, I would expect the controller to say follow the blue or red Cessna to assist you better in knowing which one to follow. On the otherhand, if you are unclear, ask the controller am I to follow the blue Cessna ahead or simply state you don't have all the traffic. Assuming that they all aren't the same color that would tell the other party that their is some confusion. Or you could reply, N1234 number 3 behind the blue Cessna. That would tip off the controller too if he was expecting you to follow the red Cessna.

I know the rules around tower visits have changed since I was a controller, but I would take the time to visit the tower and talk directly to controllers. Just give the tower a call and ask if you can stop by to ask some questions. Then replay your scenario to one of your local controllers. I'm sure that they would be more than happy to discuss the scenario with and what works best at your local airport. I'm sure you'll find that most tower controllers are just as interested as your are in not experiencing somebody cutting another aircraft off in the pattern and are willing to help a pilot understand what is going on in the tower better.
 
Sounds like you handled this one perfectly, Bob. Nice job!

One more thing, sometimes I will omit traffic that is very close to the airport because I assume you won't see it anyway. In an RV, going faster than most, the potential is there to see all traffic because you come upon them quicker...possibly catching the controller off guard. When in doubt, just ask. I feel the controller should be providing a bit of additional detail if there is possibility of confusion also.

Like Bob suggested, take a quick tour. Perfect rainy day event.
 
Phlyan Pan said:
This isn't instrument related but....tonight a friend and I are going to fly into our local Class C to get some practice (I haven't flown since I got my ticket 4 years ago and he hasn't done any ATC work other than when he was working on his). We thought it would be a good idea to go together so he has a little extra comfort level with me there as well.

Question is this: does the controller care to know that he/we are low time and are just there to practice? Should we let him know we're there to shoot touch and goes and that he/she should feel free to get rid of us if they're too busy?
Click to expand...

Here is an excellent video for anyone uncomfortable with the operations at a controlled airfield. Lancaster where this video takes place is Class D airspace. http://aviationsafetyvideos.com/afraidofatc.html
 
Practice Actual IFR

My apologies if this has been asked/answered before.

I'd like to practice of my IFR skills to keep them sharp. Most of my flights include a practice approach into a local airport. In VFR conditions, I simply call Approach and ask for a practice approach to xyz. Almost always, they're happy to oblige.

But there are days where I can fly VFR with a soup layer above and I'd like to get some practice in actual conditions. I'm just not sure how to ask for a climb from VFR conditions into the soup for an actual IFR approach. I've asked Approach in those conditions - but almost always get a "Maintain VFR". I've considered Filing a IFR flight plan out of my airport for a distant airport and then requesting a return to the local airport with an approach.
 
File to your departure airport

I'm not familiar with the FARs, but why couldn't you file with your departure and arrival aerodrome the same? Use a near-by VOR as an en-route point.
 
Couple ideas, Request a clearance to a nearby navaid at an altitude that will put you in it with an approach to the airport of choice. Or if conditions are right request an IFR climb to VFR on top followed by an approach.
 
David Z said:
I'm not familiar with the FARs, but why couldn't you file with your departure and arrival aerodrome the same? Use a near-by VOR as an en-route point.
Click to expand...

I've done that many times on training/test flights. No problem at all with ATC. You don't even need to put an enroute point. Just let them know what you need to do. Of course, in a busy metro area, you might be politely told that they cannot accommodate practice approaches.
 
All these answers are correct. File from point "a"to point "b" then back to point "a". If you don't want to file, just ask the controller for a short range IFR clearance just for IFR training. Tell them what you want and if they can accommodate, they will!
 
Who to ask for flight following when launching from a private airport/strip ?

I will be taking my first cross-country flight in a very long time. I want to use flight following. I will have two situations:

Case #1: taking off from a grass runway (airpark) about 10 miles from Tulsa (Class C airport).
Question: Should I contact Tulsa Departure (or approach) with my location and request for flight following ? Do I contact Kansas City Center with my location and request for flight following ? What are good reference points to use for "my location" ?

Case #2: taking off from a public Lake Cumberland Regional (Class D airport / Sumerset, KY) and not near much of anything.
Question: I assume (yes/no ?) I should contact Indianapolis Center with my location ("departing Lake Cumberland") and request for flight following ?
 
Case #2:

APCH/DEP SVC PRVDD BY INDIANAPOLIS ARTCC ON FREQS 124.625/371.925 (LONDON 2 RCAG).

This info is usually part of the entry in the AFD and can be found on AIRNAV.com
 
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You can use airports for your point of reference and they will generally know where you are but if that is in doubt, use a prominent NAVAID to be SURE they will know where to look for you. The AF/D will provide frequencies and sometimes a phone number for "Clearance Delivery" and if you explain you intentions they will be able to provide you with local procedures for your route of flight.
 
Crossing ADIZ near South Florida

Procedural question -
If on flight following with Miami Center on return from Bahamas, with unique transponder code, does one still need to call Miami Radio for another unique code and switch to that in order to cross the ADIZ?
Or simply call Radio and notify of the code I'm using? Or notify Center that I'm switching to a code provided by Radio.
Probably overthinking something that's dealt with every day but first time out and back and I'm trying to cover all my bases. Like to look at F-16's but not in close formation.

Thanks for any guidance.
 
tkatc said:
if that is in doubt, use a prominent NAVAID
Click to expand...

If flying VFR, would a victor airway waypoint be considered a "prominent" and/or recognisable navaid?

Example: "Cessna 12345, VFR over CHEES at 7500".

Or are you suggesting just using VORs And airportscas points of reference?
 
adiz code confusion

Carl,

ADIZ codes you receive from FSS, 126.9, allow adiz penetration. If you have a flight plan on file and are requesting flight following from ZMA ARTCC, our codes we give you will allow adiz penetration. The code you get from radio will permit you adiz penetration without flight following. Now one thing you should know is that east of Freeport, the radar coverage is not very good. Miami Center only owns 7000 and above, below that is freeport approach and nassau approach(NON RADAR). Nassau owns 6000 and below about 35mi east of ZFP. I hope this helps you.

take care and feel free to pm or email me for further info. I work that airspace every day. Very common for pilots to get confused when they just received a code from fss and then we give them another code!

carl
 
Thanks Carl

Appreciate you jumping in.
In summary - if on Flight Following from Center, the code they provide is good for ADIZ penetration. No need to call Radio.

If not on Flight Following, call Radio for the transponder code to cross the ADIZ.

Right?
 
Carl....thanks for jumping in on that. I don't know much about ADIZ crossing and I might PM you in the future to get the skinny myself.

Other Carl... yep, I think you got it!!

Humpty....VORs and such are much better because there are fewer of them. There are THOUSANDS of waypoints which the controller may or may not be all that familiar with. So better to use the NAVAID. Many controllers know many waypoints in their airspace but probably not many OUTSIDE their airspace so if you call the wrong controller....he is not likely to know the waypoint you are referring to. Best to use NAVAIDS or larger airports.
 
Learned a little something new today. Earlier in this post I stated that airports with 3-letter identifiers have weather services on the field (AWOS/ASOS) and airports with numbers in them did not. I was confused when someone brought to my attention several airports with weather but NOT a 3-letter identifier. Today I think I have figured out why there was a discrepency in my understanding....the 3-letter airports employ a COMMISSIONED weather service whereas the other airports are not COMMISSIONED. Once COMMISSIONED by the FAA the airport would get a 3-letter indentifier assigned.
 
VFR question not sure if it belongs here or to Flight Testing Section; should I contact approach and tell them I am orbiting at or passing through, say, 10,000 over a VOR or an intersection? There is relatively busy route within my test box airliners at 7-8K to NYC.
 
Sounds like flight following would be your best option. They would know what you were doing exactly and give you advisories for the conflicting traffic.
 
Practice approaches

Great thread! I've got one (and I haven't read through ALL the pages of this thread yet, so if it's already been answered, I apologize--just point me to the thread number).

When practicing instrument approaches, on initial call to the tower and asking for "practice ILS 16, with Sierra", I always here "maintain VFR, and how will this approach terminate?".

To me, it reminds me of pilots that ask for flight following, but forget to specify aircraft type/equipment and destination, and have to be prompted for it. ATC seems to ALWAYS have to come back with the query "how will this approach terminate"... so would you rather hear my post-approach intentions on the initial call, or wait til you ask me?
 
The "maintain VFR" part is mandated and just a reminder that you are not being afforded IFR seperation until you are "cleared" for the approach (this only applies to the primary airport the controller is assigned to, at secondary airports you will be given a different "speil" to remind you we are not providing seperation)

As far as giving the controller an idea as to how it will terminate, if you give the controller TOO much info, he/she will likely only retain the important stuff and confirm anything missed. If the transmission is short and sweet...it will likely be appreciated and retained. Too much "jibber'jabber" and it will congest the freq and might even be missed by the controller.
 
tkatc said:
As far as giving the controller an idea as to how it will terminate, if you give the controller TOO much info, he/she will likely only retain the important stuff and confirm anything missed. If the transmission is short and sweet...it will likely be appreciated and retained. Too much "jibber'jabber" and it will congest the freq and might even be missed by the controller.
Click to expand...

Excellent, thanks. It sounds like waiting til s/he asks is the best bet here, as I've noticed that sometimes they ask right away, and other times they ask when you're inbound from the FAF. When they're ready for the info about what you want to do next, they'll ask for it.
 
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