Van's Air Force
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April 12, 2024 Ch11 Video Update
- Thread starter DeltaRomeo
- Start date
PaulvS
Well Known Member
I think that's the best update so far and anybody who wears a shirt like Van's, ya gotta trust!
It's interesting that unsecured creditors may receive more than 55%, depending on company performance over the next three years. It sounds like there is a concerted effort being put into improving the management and processes so that Van's can survive in the long term.
Man it really irks me when they talk about profitability. I certainly want them to stick around and survive, but to think about them making a profit, after cancelling my contract and upping the price by $15k really rubs me wrong. Profits should come after every one of us has been made whole.
Counterpoint- profits are needed for long term viability. They expect to pay priority claims quickly and the remainder of claims at a minimum of 55 cents on the dollar. It could even be more than that if net disposable income is greater and permits it. Successful recovery from bk reorg is uncommon and it’s a blessing that Vans will survive it.
I am choosing to look at my increased pricing as what Vans SHOULD have charged me to begin with to avoid the mess they’re in now. I’m glad that they will be around for years to come and look forward to the continued support and future developments.
If I threw up my hands in disgust and walked away from every obstacle that I’ve ever faced, I would never have been in the position to even contemplate starting this build. Glad for the positive update and I look forward to more specific guidance on delivery timelines for open kit orders and engine orders.
Patrick
Profits means recovery, No profit - no vans. Perhaps not understood by many but a successful chapter 11 reorganization is a tremendous benefit to the thousands of customers over the years that have built, sold, bought, and repaired Vans aircraft. The value of that success is not measured if all we consider is the immediate effect on me and my checkbook. Am I "made whole" at the successful end? No. But I do have a company to keep me building and flying. We are better off than ICON Aircraft owners at this stage. ICON Chapter 11 . Cheer up, the update was a positive sign. Not there yet, but getting there painful bit by bit. And 85% of us have decided to march on.
rocketman1988
Well Known Member
Obviously, you haven't been through a bankruptcy process...bankruptcies have been going on for a long, long time. I've been through several; it isn't "fair", it isn't "right", and the feelings, sentiments, and comments are pretty much always the same.
No judging, sarcasm, or ill will...just observations from my experiences.
Someone had to FRONT the money for the buildings, machinery, and material. They deserve a return on that investment. Not to mention a return on "Intellectual Property" for coming up with the design.
12vaitor
Well Known Member
I was surprised by the comment that damage claims by some builders were well in excess of their deposits, $100K on a $5K deposit for example. I am pleased that a substantial majority of builders did the right thing and accepted the situation for what it is.
John Salak
RV-12 N896HS
John Salak
RV-12 N896HS
bobrv7taildragger
Member
May I ask a sensible non inflammatory question without being shot down please.
I have two claims. one for a Finish kit and one for an engine. Do I get two amounts of $3350 priority claim or only one? (actually the finish kit deposit is only $2500 and the engine deposit was $9507.
Can anyone tell me is the priority $5600 for the two separate claims or just $3350. then 55 to 60% (last video) over the next three years of the balance. just trying to understand. Thankyou.
I have two claims. one for a Finish kit and one for an engine. Do I get two amounts of $3350 priority claim or only one? (actually the finish kit deposit is only $2500 and the engine deposit was $9507.
Can anyone tell me is the priority $5600 for the two separate claims or just $3350. then 55 to 60% (last video) over the next three years of the balance. just trying to understand. Thankyou.
My understanding (I’m not a lawyer!) is that each kit represents a separate claim, so I would think you’d get $3350 x 2, plus 55% of each remaining balance.
BigBadBob
Member
I'm grumpy because I think they should have given more info on Lycoming engine orders. According to the reorg plan, they have a letter agreement with Lycoming. Engines are shipping according to other posts on VAF. It's obvious there is a list of engine orders. There is absolutely no reason I can fathom why they can't tell customers their ordinal position on the list. And I doubt there is a valid reason why they can't provide an estimate for the time-frame for each customer's order. After all they are doing that with kits now. And I suspect they have to be financially modeling engine deliveries internally in order to manage cash flow.
From my point of view, this is spectacularly bad customer service even considering CH11 and everything else. It is a simple administrative task that would take, what, a handful of hours?
A suspicious person might wonder if they don't divulge this info because it is bad news and shows engines won't be delivered until the next decade or something. It's a good thing I'm not a suspicious person... ;-)
From my point of view, this is spectacularly bad customer service even considering CH11 and everything else. It is a simple administrative task that would take, what, a handful of hours?
A suspicious person might wonder if they don't divulge this info because it is bad news and shows engines won't be delivered until the next decade or something. It's a good thing I'm not a suspicious person... ;-)
At the 10:12 minute mark he explains that you would get up to 3350 for ea priority claim within 60 days.
I would suspect that your finish kit deposit defined as a priority claim would be paid in full, 2500 dollars in that it is below 3350 within 60 days. Your engine deposit priority claim would pay 3350 within 60 days and the balance of the engine deposit would then become an unsecured claim and paid at a estimated rate of 55% over three years starting May 2025.
Thats my interpretation of what was said.
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rocketman1988
Well Known Member
I don’t think so; the priority claim is UP TO 3350. He said one claim is $2500, so he would get $2500 for that one, not 3350.
rocketman1988
Well Known Member
It is Lycoming that is building the engines, though. Would it be reasonable for vans to post a delivery schedule and then Lycoming not be able to fulfill it? Not sure Lycoming wants to be shackled with a second party delivery list.
Just a thought; lots of moving pieces.
bobrv7taildragger
Member
I have two valid claims both seperate Bob. one is $2500 for the finish kit so priority claim should pay that in full....the other claim i have is for the engine deposit....$9500 so i should get $3350 for that claim as a priority. Just ensuring each valid claim has a priority attached to it and one persons claims are not bundled together to create one claim. I claimed at seperate times because the engine had not been decided by vans until well after i was to submit i did not want to accept the increased finish kit cost....hence claim one....then some months later i submitted the engine claim......cheers.
bobrv7taildragger
Member
that is how i interpret it as well.....cannot treat seperate claims as a bundle....both are separate items and claim numbers.
rocketman1988
Well Known Member
Yes, I was referring to the $2500 claim.
I just spoke to Chris at the Lycoming Booth at Sun n Fun yesterday. My understanding from what he said is that he tells Vans what they are building over the next 30 day period and how many. Vans then allocate those engine builds to customer orders and apparently ( hopefully) this respects the chronological sequence of the original orders. Multiple areas here where transparency is lost to the customers and definitely an area where customer communication could be vastly improved.
JonJay
Well Known Member
It’s good info, and explanations, but, nothing new.
All of this is described in the plan, albeit a bit clouded in all the legal ease.
The questions, scripted, responses guided, but that is to be expected.
I’m glad he has confidence in Vans, given his experience.
It’s a long road. I hope they keep feeling good about their progress, and I hope others do as well. I know it would have killed me to wait on parts, but it’s better than to face never getting them at all.
Keep swimming!
All of this is described in the plan, albeit a bit clouded in all the legal ease.
The questions, scripted, responses guided, but that is to be expected.
I’m glad he has confidence in Vans, given his experience.
It’s a long road. I hope they keep feeling good about their progress, and I hope others do as well. I know it would have killed me to wait on parts, but it’s better than to face never getting them at all.
Keep swimming!
Good update and factual. Got to be able to charge customers more than the vendors are charging to stay in business. The magic question that was not asked is - how many new customer orders are in the pipeline? This is the key to ongoing business health. Current customer orders are different in that they are already committed at various levels. New customers are a different deal.
Don't get your hopes up. Chris told me last April I would have my engine by the end of May 2023....... then again in July it would be middle of August......... then I was told the line was down due to rusty parts. I figure the TB line was down for Vans customers at that time because of the $598,000 debt to Lycoming..........then came chapter 11. Now I'm thinking I might get my TB 540 by the end of this year. Believe what you want to believe but the only thing I will believe is when I see it in my shop.
Chris at Lycoming told me that Vans sends them the list of who and what engine.
HighFlying
Member
I do believe VAN's continues to have a customer communications problem. My tale of woe is that I ordered an RV-14 with $11k in deposits in Feb 23, in May I changed to an RV-10 build and my deposits became credits for an RV-10 Fuselage and Finish kit (bought a nearly completed wing and emp third party). All good, the credit was noted on the order but not as a deposit. Ok, that's fine until Chap 11. So I waited that out and within 30 minutes of the repricing email coming out, I agreed to the new pricing for the finish kit. I got the revised order from Greg and there was no indication of my credit on the order. I called VAN's finally getting through and they told me yeah you have a credit, so why isn't on the order as reducing the amount I owe by the amount of credit I have. No good answer to that. Heard nothing else from them. Thought I would be at the front of the line for one of the available finishing kits, but nope no crating email for me. So I felt I had no other choice but to file a claim before the deadline, not knowing what they were going to make good on my credit. I could and would release the claim if they came back to me with a proposal and that they were going to honor the credit on my kit orders. Not sure how this will play out, the only word I got after bugging them with emails is my finishing kit wouldn't ship until September-October, really? No idea how they are managing shipping priorities, certainly not FiFo.
Im not sure the profit they speak of is bottom line and money being taken out of the business and sent to ownership. I interpret them to mean gross profit. As in a particular part is earning them more than the labor and material to produce it and now the gross profit of said part can contribute to overhead and other business cost not directly tied to producing this single part.
Who votes? Only people with claims, or also people with renewed (assumed) orders? If the latter, what class are those and what dollar amount? Deposit amount?
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People that have filed a claim where mailed a voting form to fill out and mail back.
I didn't file a claim and I was sent a voting form.
cactusman
Well Known Member
Everyone who was a creditor should get a ballot, regardless of claim status. I accepted my revised engine order, and was sent a ballot. I completed that ballot for the amount of my original deposit and mailed it back same day.
I suspect it is just going thru the motions at this point.
I suspect it is just going thru the motions at this point.
RV8JD
Well Known Member
I did not file a claim nor do I have any kits or accessories on order. But I received the following notice (not a ballot), as I assume all past and present customers have, since the re-org plan/Ch. 11 will limit one's ability to file a claim in the future.
Can't vote per se, but can submit an objection to the re-org plan to the Court.
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