Another pmag question

[danny]

My motor was acting funny when throttled back in the pattern. No popping or weird drama, just an uneven idle. It's never done this before. I ended removing the mag and discovered a very small but perceptible amt of play in the shaft. Book says as much as .030" (?) is ok. Danny says no. Asking the brain trust what your thoughts are.
Thanks
danny

 

[lr172]

Very common problem with pmags. the play messes with the internal sensor gap and you have issues. Needs to be sent in for repair. Be sure your sitting when looking at the new repair rates. have no idea what amount of slop in the bearing is allowed, but if it has already translated to poor performance then the spec doesn't matter.

Are you sure ignition is the source of the rough idle?

 

[mfleming]

My motor was acting funny when throttled back in the pattern. No popping or weird drama, just an uneven idle. It's never done this before. I ended removing the mag and discovered a very small but perceptible amt of play in the shaft. Book says as much as .030" (?) is ok. Danny says no. Asking the brain trust what your thoughts are.
Thanks
danny

When I called E-Mag, they said any discernible play was unacceptable and needed to be sent in for a rebuild. My P-Mag has been at the Hartzel rebuild shop since May 7th for rebuild.

Edit: 250 hours on my P-mag

 

[danny]

When I called E-Mag, they said any discernible play was unacceptable and needed to be sent in for a rebuild. My P-Mag has been at the Hartzel rebuild shop since May 7th for rebuild.

Edit: 250 hours on my P-mag

The .030" is from the troubleshooting guide. 105 hours. We're you quoted a $$ amount? Really poor timing here. The airport is going to close for a couple of months starting in July so I was hoping for a bit of flying before that. Did you have any symptoms or were you just doing your annual? Pmag went from hero to zero overnight.
Thanks
danny

 

[danny]

Very common problem with pmags. the play messes with the internal sensor gap and you have issues. Needs to be sent in for repair. Be sure your sitting when looking at the new repair rates. have no idea what amount of slop in the bearing is allowed, but if it has already translated to poor performance then the spec doesn't matter.

Are you sure ignition is the source of the rough idle?

99.9% sure. The T/S guide says .030" is max. I don't like any amount. It was uneven and almost died on the ground without giving it a little stick. Checked plugs maybe 7 hours ago. My motor doesn't run rich. Filter is good. All the other stuff is good. I have an engine monitor and will download later. Mag is an obvious potential issue. Hopefully the only one. And, yes, will be sitting maybe with an adult beverage to cushion the blow.
danny

 

[Mikeyb]

Can’t find any quantitative reference to the end play other than “excessive play” in the current 114 manual or troubleshooting sections

 

[mfleming]

Can’t find any quantitative reference to the end play other than “excessive play” in the current 114 manual or troubleshooting sections

Me neither but the factory told me any play you can feel when aggressively wiggling the shaft indicates the need for overhaul.

 

[danny]

Can’t find any quantitative reference to the end play other than “excessive play” in the current 114 manual or troubleshooting sections

"You might detect (feel or hear) a small outward shift in the position of the shaft. The expected movement is rather small - 0.030” or less." from the trouble shooting tips on the website.
dk

 

[fixnflyguy]

My neighbor just went through P-mag overhauls after some hot start issues that caused backfiring through the induction system. He sent both off for overhaul, and the problem seems to be gone. Seemed like about 3 weeks to a month for the overhaul. Yes, it was expensive. Slop in the bearings was mentioned, but I don't know details..He may chime in if he is watching this thread. I'm old school and just run good old Bendix mags...seems like P-mags are having issues, but I don't have deep knowledge of them.

 

[jackking123]

Please post what Hartzell does for you in turn around and cost. I know Brad and company turned P-mags in two weeks including shipping. The cost was reasonable, and in one case upgraded both my boards for the price of one.

One month already and no word? This is not good. I really want to know cost...

 

[mfleming]

Please post what Hartzell does for you in turn around and cost. I know Brad and company turned P-mags in two weeks including shipping. The cost was reasonable, and in one case upgraded both my boards for the price of one.

One month already and no word? This is not good. I really want to know cost...

I think this was directed to me.

It was supposed to be shipped yesterday. The charge showed up on my CC but no word from Hartzell. The rebuild cost is $899. They say this includes a redesigned bearing stack and all new electronics. Also the shaft wiggle test goes from 100 hrs (or annually) to 500 hours. Hopefully they really did redesign the bearings and eliminated that problem.

PS: when I sent it to them they quoted 2 to 4 weeks depending on work load, first come, first served. I asked if I could pay full price to ship one immediately and refund the difference but they said "buy a new one or wait for the overhaul"

 

[wirejock]

Ouch. $2335 vs $899 hurry up and wait. Sad. Glad you are getting an improved version.

 

[danny]

99.9% sure. The T/S guide says .030" is max. I don't like any amount. It was uneven and almost died on the ground without giving it a little stick. Checked plugs maybe 7 hours ago. My motor doesn't run rich. Filter is good. All the other stuff is good. I have an engine monitor and will download later. Mag is an obvious potential issue. Hopefully the only one. And, yes, will be sitting maybe with an adult beverage to cushion the blow.
danny

Monitor said #1 egt is 30-40 degrees lower than the other cylinders below approx 2000 rpm. Spread between the others is about 6-10. Above 2k egt evens out. I think the pmag is drifting at low rpm. I don't think it's a plug or injector but I'll clean the injector and look at plugs just in case.
danny

 

[jackking123]

I think this was directed to me.

It was supposed to be shipped yesterday. The charge showed up on my CC but no word from Hartzell. The rebuild cost is $899. They say this includes a redesigned bearing stack and all new electronics. Also the shaft wiggle test goes from 100 hrs (or annually) to 500 hours. Hopefully they really did redesign the bearings and eliminated that problem.

PS: when I sent it to them they quoted 2 to 4 weeks depending on work load, first come, first served. I asked if I could pay full price to ship one immediately and refund the difference but they said "buy a new one or wait for the overhaul"

Assume this was for one P-mag not two and you had an older P-Mag version, with older board *, original bearing ** .

For $899 they upgraded the circuit board and put the larger bearing in? That is good news, as they did not force you to buy a new P-Mag. Turn time was as promised 2-4 weeks ISH.... That is OK.

The cost although not cheap is not outrageous, considering all they did. I recall, could be wrong to go to larger bearing they replace the whole housing. Not sure.

* My take on (electronic) boards in P-Mag, for those who care: The original boards I'll call Gen 1.0 were potted and they did away with that, as it was not needed. The newer boards Gen 2.0 (my term) had no potting and some changes in functions, making it easier to repair. Later boards (out for many years) I call Gen 3.0 had some other features, but not critical or readily apparent to user. They may have had more changes than I mention, just my take on it FYI.

** Bearing size, the original bearing works great, still does, lasting past +1000 hours, some 1800 hrs still in service . Some wear out faster. It depends on engine. If your engine is unbalanced, has HC pistons, no crankshaft dampers, more wear tear on the bearing. The upgraded bearing helps but not a must have, like boards are not a must have, if your old bearings works, old board works, fly one.

E-mag recommended every 100 hrs take them out, check for play. Not a big deal. However bearing wear is a thing.

NOTE: YouTube, Canard Boulevard, the channel features a O-360 Lyc powered Cozy. Had rough running engine due to ignition. His Electroair electronic ignition accessory case driven trigger, after +10 yrs I recall, was worn, leaking. He replace the trigger problem solved, The Electroair is not a P-mag. The Electroair has separate ECU and dependent on ships power. Point being bearings wear out.

NOTE: P-mag is SELF POWERED and has ease of installation. You don't have to mount ECU, coils, crank trigger, plus Aux battery power with all the associated wiring . SELF POWERED is a BIG DOT DEAL... No other EI system is self powered. A little (possible) bearing wear, varies by engine, is the trade off. Balance those props boys and girls.

 

[olyolson]

Above: “No other EI system is self powered”. Until the new Champion Lightning series hits the market sometime this year. Yes it’s a prototype at the moment and there may be some growing pains with early adopters. I won’t be the first in line but I’d like to replace my rather complex Electroair and install one or maybe two of these at some point. Sounds dead simple initially with no external power required except for initial start. 2,000 hr TBO and no maintenance (supposedly), geez what’s not to like? Sounds pretty promising……

 

[wirejock]

Above: “No other EI system is self powered”. Until the new Champion Lightning series hits the market sometime this year. Yes it’s a prototype at the moment and there may be some growing pains with early adopters. I won’t be the first in line but I’d like to replace my rather complex Electroair and install one or maybe two of these at some point. Sounds dead simple initially with no external power required except for initial start. 2,000 hr TBO and no maintenance (supposedly), geez what’s not to like? Sounds pretty promising……

Did they design for auto spark plugs?
Maybe for standard distributor style wires?
I can't tell. Sounds promising.

 

[Rdog420]

Above: “No other EI system is self powered”. Until the new Champion Lightning series hits the market sometime this year. Yes it’s a prototype at the moment and there may be some growing pains with early adopters. I won’t be the first in line but I’d like to replace my rather complex Electroair and install one or maybe two of these at some point. Sounds dead simple initially with no external power required except for initial start. 2,000 hr TBO and no maintenance (supposedly), geez what’s not to like? Sounds pretty promising……

It won’t have the ability to advance. They are going after the certified market. And they have had that mag at every show for 4 years saying “we hope to have a PMA within the year”. I think the hold up is probably more with the FAA approval

 

[jackking123]

In general be it Hartzell trying to PMA the P-Mag or the Champion Lighting possible future product, there are always certification issues.

SureFly and Electroair, use aircraft mass electrode spark plugs with standard screw on high tension lead. The NGK with adapter has proven their self in experimental installations. You KNOW the Champion Lightning if it comes to market will NOT use NGK's. Ha ha,

The current PMA'ed EI's (SureFly, Electroair) are also not self powered. The self powered part I think is a challenge to do in the first place, much less get FAA approval. So P-Mag and Champion Lightning may have to jump through more hoops, there is no prescience.

 

[danny]

Monitor said #1 egt is 30-40 degrees lower than the other cylinders below approx 2000 rpm. Spread between the others is about 6-10. Above 2k egt evens out. I think the pmag is drifting at low rpm. I don't think it's a plug or injector but I'll clean the injector and look at plugs just in case.
danny

Hopefully the final chapter! I put the new Pmag back in and it's a whole new world. Cold idle was around 520 rpm and very smooth. I went around the patch once and it felt smoother and had more power. Win, win. I think the deterioration must've been so gradual that it wasn't noticed at first. Eventually it was too much to try to ignore. Danny is a happy boy!
danny

 

[jmra72a]

Glad to hear things worked out.

I am very happy with my P-Mags. So much so, that I bought a spare as soon as I heard the word that Hartzel purchased E-Mag. Though E-Mag has had some growing pains over the years, they have a great product. It is too bad Hartzel purchased them. My experience with Hartzel ie. Plane Power, and SkyTech has not been favorable. that is why I made the investment to place a spare P-Mag on the shelf.

 

[mfleming]

Glad to hear things worked out.

I am very happy with my P-Mags. So much so, that I bought a spare as soon as I heard the word that Hartzel purchased E-Mag. Though E-Mag has had some growing pains over the years, they have a great product. It is too bad Hartzel purchased them. My experience with Hartzel ie. Plane Power, and SkyTech has not been favorable. that is why I made the investment to place a spare P-Mag on the shelf.

I totally understand the sentiment but my P-Mag I just got back from from the Hartzell MRO facility is 500 hours between inspections instead of 100 hours. Supposedly the bearing stack has been updated . That’s quite the improvement.

 

[Walt]

I totally understand the sentiment but my P-Mag I just got back from from the Hartzell MRO facility is 500 hours between inspections instead of 100 hours. Supposedly the bearing stack has been updated . That’s quite the improvement.

The suspect the 'new' 500hr insp. interval was implemented to appease folks complaining about the 100 insp. interval, and not actually supported by data. Only time will tell.

 

[mfleming]

The suspect the 'new' 500hr insp. interval was implemented to appease folks complaining about the 100 insp. interval, and not actually supported by data. Only time will tell.

Unlikely.
Imagine an accident involving a P-Mag that exceeded the previous 100 hr inspection mandate and the lawyers finding out during discovery there was not justification for the increase.
Hartzell’s lawyers would never allow that IMHO

 

[Carl Froehlich]

The suspect the 'new' 500hr insp. interval was implemented to appease folks complaining about the 100 insp. interval, and not actually supported by data. Only time will tell.

No, the 500 hour inspection reflects an engineering change.

Carl

 

[jackking123]

I totally understand the sentiment but my P-Mag I just got back from from the Hartzell MRO facility is 500 hours between inspections instead of 100 hours. Supposedly the bearing stack has been updated . That’s quite the improvement.

What COST???

 

[lr172]

The suspect the 'new' 500hr insp. interval was implemented to appease folks complaining about the 100 insp. interval, and not actually supported by data. Only time will tell.

+1

If they designed it wrong to begin with, then kept selling them for a decade with a known poor design that failed regularly enough to require 100 hour inspections, I would argue that there is a pretty good chance the new design is no better, as I feel they simply don't have the skills to design it properly. Just one mans opinion.

 

[lr172]

No, the 500 hour inspection reflects an engineering change.

Carl

and exactly what makes you believe that change will improve the dismal failure rate? A change, in and of itself doesn't equal improvement. They changed the inspection interval with no real world feedback proving the design actually made things better.

 

[Walt]

Unlikely.
Imagine an accident involving a P-Mag that exceeded the previous 100 hr inspection mandate and the lawyers finding out during discovery there was not justification for the increase.
Hartzell’s lawyers would never allow that IMHO

When Hartzell purchased Pmag the 'new' 500 hr insp with the new bearing had already been implemented so they can disavow any knowledge of that change.

 

[Walt]

No, the 500 hour inspection reflects an engineering change.

Carl

Well in my previous life a time extension was only granted with adequate data to back up the extension.
Saying "we fixed it" isn't good enough.

 

[jackking123]

and exactly what makes you believe that change will improve the dismal failure rate? A change, in and of itself doesn't equal improvement. They changed the inspection interval with no real world feedback proving the design actually made things better.

Dismal failure? I am sorry you do not have data to support that. I have been a P-mag pilot for +10 yrs. I have talked to BRAD dozens of times and he is no bull.

The original bearing worked fine and upgrading Bearing was optional, and depended on engine & prop (vibration, HP, torque pulse, prop bal etc) which telegraphs those loads and vibrations into accessory drive and things hanging off the accessor case.

Time 500-1500 hrs was common before you saw play (play not catastrophic failure) was typical. 1000 hrs is typically 10 years for most pilots, so keep calm. This is ALL preventative.

To remind you all standard Magnetos have to be inspected and/or rebuilt every 500 hrs. Bendix Mag $1000-$1500 per Magneto, $1500-$2000 exchange. Keep perspective, STUFF wears out.​

Newer bearing design under Brad (released a long while back), pre Hartzell, increased the diameter of bearing. It would be simple logic and design to last as long or longer. I talked to Brad. It was incremental change.

BTW the inspection takes less than 30 seconds to inspect the P-mag, but you do have to unplug it and remove hold down and pop it out. No play put it back in. NO BIG DEAL. Move on. People who never have owned, flew and maintained P-Mags make a big deal. Some owners do complain... and some don't bother with inspections. It is preventative. EI commander that reads the data port off the mag (an aftermarket product) can determine ignition jitter indicating there is play. Brad said that is nice, but not needed. You can hook your laptop up and run a program (I got from brad) and read the same data.​

BEARING Hartzell deisgn? I HAVE NO IDEA? However 500 hr warranty or inspection is a NOTHING BURGER...They always typically gone 500 hrs and plenty more.

BTW Brad replaced bearings for pennies with a total time from ship to receive under 2 weeks. Often they would upgrade things no charge. I suspect 1st Gen P-Mags have been upgraded, but they were good from the Get-Go... just made even better.​

Light Speed, ElectroAir and P-Mag ..... ALL have EI hall effect triggers that are mounted to the magneto accessory case drive. THEY ALL WEAR OUT THEIR BEARINGS and SEALS... Don't know about SUREFLY, but they claim 2400 hrs between overhauls, with mandatory total rebuild by manufacture.

THINGS WEAR OUT. These bearings are not really lubricated. They don't just fail. you only need to keep an eye on them.

To call it dismal failure is to hyperbolize. The P-MAG is a great product, easy to install and STILL THE ONLY ONE ON THE MARKET THAT IS SELF POWERED WHICH PEOPLE SEEM TO FORGET. That is a WWW BIG DOT DEAL

There is a long list of EI ignitions that failed in flight, not self powered, reliance on ships power, that have caused total loss of power. Not P-Mags.

Diamond DA42*DA62 (+$1M diesel twin), has had more than one off field landing due to the EI and EFI going Kaput due to no electrons. Self powered IE independent of ships power is priceless, worth the cost of checking and replacing bearings every 5 or 10 yrs as preventive maintenance.

 

[Walt]

The fact that you say it takes 30 seconds to inspect and penny’s to repair kills your entire argument as nonsense.
Exactly how many aircraft have you serviced with PMAGS? How many have you installed and serviced annually?
So all the folks that report problems in just a few hundred hours are somehow imagining this?

 

[RV6_OKLA]

My motor was acting funny when throttled back in the pattern. No popping or weird drama, just an uneven idle. It's never done this before. I ended removing the mag and discovered a very small but perceptible amt of play in the shaft. Book says as much as .030" (?) is ok. Danny says no. Asking the brain trust what your thoughts are.
Thanks
danny

Does the mag have the recommended larger diameter cotter pin? There was a "play" issue due to the original undersized cotter pins. When I sent mine in(before they sold the company) for a checkup, they replaced the cotter pins. I have had P-mags since 2013 and have sent them in once for software upgraded, and once for the previous mentioned "peace of mind" check up after I replaced one of the coils.

 

[Toobuilder]

Dismal failure? I am sorry you do not have data to support that….

….THINGS WEAR OUT.

In the context of real world EI experience, no. They don’t. And it has been like that for a quarter century or more. If there was ANY other car, boat or motorcycle manufacturer with the ignition reliability of the PMag product, they would be out of business in short order. That’s no hyperbole, that’s just hard cold truth.

Glad you find Brad accommodating to work with. So did I. Glad you found the product “easy to service”…. So did I. You know what’s even better? NOT having to call Brad for technical help or NOT having to remove your ignition. Because you bought one that just works. Forever.. with no maintenance.

 

[lr172]

Dismal failure? I am sorry you do not have data to support that. I have been a P-mag pilot for +10 yrs. I have talked to BRAD dozens of times and he is no bull.

The original bearing worked fine and upgrading Bearing was optional, and depended on engine & prop (vibration, HP, torque pulse, prop bal etc) which telegraphs those loads and vibrations into accessory drive and things hanging off the accessor case.

Time 500-1500 hrs was common before you saw play (play not catastrophic failure) was typical. 1000 hrs is typically 10 years for most pilots, so keep calm. This is ALL preventative.

To remind you all standard Magnetos have to be inspected and/or rebuilt every 500 hrs. Bendix Mag $1000-$1500 per Magneto, $1500-$2000 exchange. Keep perspective, STUFF wears out.​

Newer bearing design under Brad (released a long while back), pre Hartzell, increased the diameter of bearing. It would be simple logic and design to last as long or longer. I talked to Brad. It was incremental change.

BTW the inspection takes less than 30 seconds to inspect the P-mag, but you do have to unplug it and remove hold down and pop it out. No play put it back in. NO BIG DEAL. Move on. People who never have owned, flew and maintained P-Mags make a big deal. Some owners do complain... and some don't bother with inspections. It is preventative. EI commander that reads the data port off the mag (an aftermarket product) can determine ignition jitter indicating there is play. Brad said that is nice, but not needed. You can hook your laptop up and run a program (I got from brad) and read the same data.​

BEARING Hartzell deisgn? I HAVE NO IDEA? However 500 hr warranty or inspection is a NOTHING BURGER...They always typically gone 500 hrs and plenty more.

BTW Brad replaced bearings for pennies with a total time from ship to receive under 2 weeks. Often they would upgrade things no charge. I suspect 1st Gen P-Mags have been upgraded, but they were good from the Get-Go... just made even better.​

Light Speed, ElectroAir and P-Mag ..... ALL have EI hall effect triggers that are mounted to the magneto accessory case drive. THEY ALL WEAR OUT THEIR BEARINGS and SEALS... Don't know about SUREFLY, but they claim 2400 hrs between overhauls, with mandatory total rebuild by manufacture.

THINGS WEAR OUT. These bearings are not really lubricated. They don't just fail. you only need to keep an eye on them.

To call it dismal failure is to hyperbolize. The P-MAG is a great product, easy to install and STILL THE ONLY ONE ON THE MARKET THAT IS SELF POWERED WHICH PEOPLE SEEM TO FORGET. That is a WWW BIG DOT DEAL

There is a long list of EI ignitions that failed in flight, not self powered, reliance on ships power, that have caused total loss of power. Not P-Mags.

Diamond DA42*DA62 (+$1M diesel twin), has had more than one off field landing due to the EI and EFI going Kaput due to no electrons. Self powered IE independent of ships power is priceless, worth the cost of checking and replacing bearings every 5 or 10 yrs as preventive maintenance.

You say the bearing is fine and the pmag is a great product . So, why did they suggest you inspect it every 100 hours? And why do sp many people here report having to send there units in due to the bearing failing that inspection.

Clearly you are happy and that is great. But that is not data either.

 

[Biggiesauls]

You say the bearing is fine and the pmag is a great product . So, why did they suggest you inspect it every 100 hours? And why do sp many people here report having to send there units in due to the bearing failing that inspection.

Clearly you are happy and that is great. But that is not data either.

Uggg. Why can’t someone post a positive p-mag experience without the same few taking over the thread with negative feedback. Let me say as a builder/owner with a couple hundred hours behind dual P-Mags (3 years). I don’t regret my decision on P-Mags and would be inclined to send my P-Mags in at next condition inspection just to get updates AND 500 hour service intervals. My maintenance cost in my RV9A has been so low that $2k is chump change over a 500 hour service interval.