Another Engine Delay

[Carlos151]

So just wondering what engine choices are out there with similar 390 specs, and that would be available in a timely fashion?

DeltaHawk not quite ready for prime time and much higher projected expense.
Titan X370, less HP.
Barrett, great motors, all custom, likely more expensive.
Aero Sport, also custom, possible tariffs.

So the way I see it, it's supply and demand. We demand a motor like the 390 and Lycoming controls the supply and as such the price point. Doesn't make it any easier, just more frustrating and expensive.

 

[Jkalpine]

OH IO-540...then maybe DH...

I can't imagine DH will have their act together before these ship

 

[Fenderbean]

I feel like with how bad engine production and over hauling lead times are getting now would be a great time for modern new motors to come. Seems like if someone could develop something easy to produce that ran alternate fuels for future proofing it could be lucrative.

 

[Jkalpine]

I feel like with how bad engine production and over hauling lead times are getting now would be a great time for modern new motors to come. Seems like if someone could develop something easy to produce that ran alternate fuels for future proofing it could be lucrative.

If Rotax would build a larger version of the 916IS motor in a 200HP turbo unit I would do that in a heartbeat.

 

[Fenderbean]

If Rotax would build a larger version of the 916IS motor in a 200HP turbo unit I would do that in a heartbeat.

Yeah I have said that a few times, if they did something the same HP as the 540 I would be all over it.

 

[N8DAV8R]

If Rotax would build a larger version of the 916IS motor in a 200HP turbo unit I would do that in a heartbeat.

Yeah I have said that a few times, if they did something the same HP as the 540 I would be all over it.

What I hear from the rumor mill is that the path to 180-200hp is mapped out by Rotax but it's not going to happen in the RV-15 development timeframe. It's not going to be based on the 916, rather it's going to be a second or third iteration of a new 9 series engine we have not seen before. It will follow the model of the 912is->915is->916is development. A normally aspirated motor in the 120hp ballpark, followed by a turbocharged version. Maybe we'll see the new NA motor next year. This is circulating as Rotax's worst kept secret.

I would love nothing more than to see fully supported Rotax option for the -15, but have accepted the reality that is Lycoming this time.

 

[docjjrmd]

What I hear from the rumor mill is that the path to 180-200hp is mapped out by Rotax but it's not going to happen in the RV-15 development timeframe. It's not going to be based on the 916, rather it's going to be a second or third iteration of a new 9 series engine we have not seen before. It will follow the model of the 912is->915is->916is development. A normally aspirated motor in the 120hp ballpark, followed by a turbocharged version. Maybe we'll see the new NA motor next year. This is circulating as Rotax's worst kept secret.

I would love nothing more than to see fully supported Rotax option for the -15, but have accepted the reality that is Lycoming this time.

Ditto, perhaps larger displacement, slightly longer stroke, with and without turbo aiming at 180 to 200 hp. Issue for 15 will be weight as I suspect Rotax will be lighter per hp produced.

 

[Bavafa]

I am so fed up with this and called to cancel my order if I can get my deposit back. I e-mailed Chris at Lycoming (Cgayman at Lycoming.com) who I was referred to by VANS and he told me that the contract is between me and VANS so I should ask them for my money. Of course VANS is telling me that the problem is with Lycoming and they have nothing to do with the delay. I find that a rather clever setup, one points to the other and the other points to the first person.

I think as long as we go along with this charade, we can not expect anything else.

 

[mic2377]

I have a Titan OX-370 on order. I was quoted 11-12 months. In general the Continental engines have a shorter lead time.

I am not sure what configuration this is, or if this would be suitable for an RV, but Continental has IO-370's that are STC'ed as a 172 swap on a 70 day lead time. I would also assume that Continental parts (IE cylinders) are more available as well, compared to the 2+ year wait for Lycoming cylinders.

Personally I think the engine and rebuild wait times are indicative of a systemic issue at Lycoming. They are so long that if one has the extra $$$, it would really pay to have a spare new engine preserved in a crate. The costs have gone up so fast that I can't imagine this couldn't be easily sold down the line if it is unused.

 

[Jkalpine]

I have a Titan OX-370 on order. I was quoted 11-12 months. In general the Continental engines have a shorter lead time.

I am not sure what configuration this is, or if this would be suitable for an RV, but Continental has IO-370's that are STC'ed as a 172 swap on a 70 day lead time. I would also assume that Continental parts (IE cylinders) are more available as well, compared to the 2+ year wait for Lycoming cylinders.

Personally I think the engine and rebuild wait times are indicative of a systemic issue at Lycoming. They are so long that if one has the extra $$$, it would really pay to have a spare new engine preserved in a crate. The costs have gone up so fast that I can't imagine this couldn't be easily sold down the line if it is unused.

I had a Titan IO-340 on my previous RANS S21 (I have an S21 with 916IS now). It was a great motor. I’m surprised the 370 is only 195hp, but that might be fine in the RV15 in most cases. What price did the quote you for the OX-370?

 

[PhatRV]

I have a Titan OX-370 on order. I was quoted 11-12 months. In general the Continental engines have a shorter lead time.

I am not sure what configuration this is, or if this would be suitable for an RV, but Continental has IO-370's that are STC'ed as a 172 swap on a 70 day lead time. I would also assume that Continental parts (IE cylinders) are more available as well, compared to the 2+ year wait for Lycoming cylinders.

Personally I think the engine and rebuild wait times are indicative of a systemic issue at Lycoming. They are so long that if one has the extra $$$, it would really pay to have a spare new engine preserved in a crate. The costs have gone up so fast that I can't imagine this couldn't be easily sold down the line if it is unused.

Yeah, why don't people fly RV with Continental engine? All the Cessna 182 have a Continental in front. So why are people steadfast refuse to put a readily available and very reliable engine in their RVs

 

[lr172]

. The afore mentioned crankshafts for instance are marked up 3x by Lycoming. I'm sure cams, engine cases, and cylinders are the same.

wayyy too low on that estimate. I recently bought a 360 crank for an iran i did. Got the continental version for $8000. They didn’t even quote the lyc option as no one can get them, but guessing $10,000 plus. That same crank sold into the auto world would be $1000-1500.

 

[Ironflight]

Yeah, why don't people fly RV with Continental engine? All the Cessna 182 have a Continental in front. So why are people steadfast refuse to put a readily available and very reliable engine in their RVs

Are you talking “Continental Continental” or a Continental Lyclone”? They sure confused the business when they bought ECI for their Lycoming-type engines and parts……

Vans has engined a couple of prototypes over the years with Continental Continentals, with poorer performance as a result if I recall correctly.

 

[lr172]

Personally I think the engine and rebuild wait times are indicative of a systemic issue at Lycoming. They are so long that if one has the extra $$$, it would really pay to have a spare new engine preserved in a crate. The costs have gone up so fast that I can't imagine this couldn't be easily sold down the line if it is unused.

Be careful with that approach. Rapidly escalating prices are often bubbles and bubbles burst. I know, everyone says this is aviation and it is different. Classic mindset leading to bubbles is irrational thinking, such as this time is different. I would be shocked if engine prices somewhere in the 5 year horizon are more than 2/3 what they are now. The ONLY thing keeping them inflated at current levels is excessive demand and no way that lasts forever.

I remember in 1999, most book clubs were converting to stock picking clubs. You just couldn’t lose; At least untill you could when the bubble burst. My favorite quote of the era from greenspan. He called it “irrational exuberance.”

 

[PhatRV]

Are you talking “Continental Continental” or a Continental Lyclone”? They sure confused the business when they bought ECI for their Lycoming-type engines and parts……

Vans has engined a couple of prototypes over the years with Continental Continentals, with poorer performance as a result if I recall correctly.

I read that the Continental engines are heavier than a comparable Lycoming but lots of modern airplane use Continental such as the Cirrus line of aircraft.

 

[Ironflight]

I read that the Continental engines are heavier than a comparable Lycoming but lots of modern airplane use Continental such as the Cirrus line of aircraft.

That is true (Continentals are heavier) - which generally accounts for poorer performance when it comes to climb. Truth is that airplanes are designed around engines, and often that is determined by what is available to the designer (or the company) at the time. Cessnas used to be mostly powered by Continentals until Textron bought both Cessna and Lycoming…and most of their models were magically re-engined with Lycomings! Lycomings were what were widely available as Van was developing the RV line, and they were lighter for the same horsepower, which is why RV’s sort of grew up with Lycomings. Doesn’t mean they have to stay that way, but it’s a proven combination. Put a heavier engine on and you’re going to have to jigger the W&B a bit…. (Like the long-nosed Rotax RV-9, but in reverse…)

 

[RVbySDI]

ordered / deposit given on 8/22/24 for the YIO390EXP119ACC

Prior to today, my estimated ship date was 5/1/26

Got the email today...

Good thing I wasn't planning on.. i dunno.. mounting the engine, getting the cowl all sorted out and painted, etc while it was going to be warm enough weather to do more glass work and paint here

I read that the Continental engines are heavier than a comparable Lycoming but lots of modern airplane use Continental such as the Cirrus line of aircraft.

The reference to a “Continental” O370 engine is NOT a Continental Continental engine (as referenced by Paul). It is a Lycoming clone original built by ECI. A decade or so ago Continental bought ECI. The Titan brand of Continental engines is the ECI Lycoming clone engines. I have an original ECI IO340 on my 9A. It was purchased in 2008 as a kit. I built it in 2009. It first flew in 2010.

I have had a couple of phone conversations with Continental since August about looking at putting the Titan IO370 on the 15. It is a lighter engine than the 390. Not sure exactly how much but I believe it will be enough to help offset the difference in HP between 195ish HP for the 370 vs 210ish HP for the 390. I am not sure I would notice a performance difference, all other things being equal. They currently are quoting a 12 month lead time. Oh, and one important point I have been pondering. $50-55K vs $80-85K is an important number that will be a contributor to my decision.

 

[docjjrmd]

I am Rotax centric. So understand where I am coming from. Edge Performance has been supporting upgrades and retro fit kits to the Rotax world for 10 plus years and have developed a 185 hp engine built around the 916is the EP918Ti. Available in the US, most of the engine is stock Rotax with stock parts. Last price I saw was $57K mid 2025. Biggest change is in the ECU and larger pistons and intake port changes. Specs below. Edge Performance is well known in the gyrocopter world for their big bore kits and has a growing influence in the STOL market. Biggest issue as mentioned before is weight, this 185 hp engine is more than 100 pounds lighter than the IO-390 though it develops a bit more torque than the 390. All this means until a fuselage and more definitive W&B info is available for the RV15 a substitute engine choice is just going to have to wait, but the door is open to other engines whether its a Rotax, DH, ULPower, or custom built Lycoming clone, almost all with shorter lead times,

EP918Ti
An engine producing 185HP built from the Rotax© 916iS.
– Technical Engine Data

Engine Displacement: 1352ccm3
Bore x Stroke: 84.00×61.00mm
Gearbox reduction ratio: 2.54:1
Engine weight w/gearbox w/overload clutch, turbocharger, intercooler, exhaust system: 81.5Kg / 179.6lb
Engine suspension frame: 2Kg / 4.4lb
External Alternator: 3Kg / 6.6lb
Air Guide Baffle: 0.4Kg / 0.8lb
Fuel Pump Assy: 1.6Kg / 3.5lb
Power output: 185HP (133Kw)
Torque: 266Nm (113ft/lb) @ 5300rpm
PTO Torque: 592Nm (436ft/lb)@ 5800rpm
Fluids: 50/50 Glycol/Water mix (silicate free), XPS 5W-50
– Operating Limitations

Idle speed: 1800rpm
Max rpm: 5800rpm (max 5 minutes)
Max cont. rpm: 5500rpm
Cruise rpm: 4000-5400rpm
Critical Altitude: MAT max 50°C – 15.000’ Note – The max.cont. power is available up to critical altitude
Operating Altitude: 23.000’
Acceleration: -0.5G (max 5 seconds)
Static roll angle: 40°
Intake air temp: 50°C (120°F)
Manifold pressure: Max 54In/Hg (Max.cont. 42In/Hg)
Fuel: AKI 93 / 98 RON / E10 (Alternatively AVGAS 100LL)
Oil pressure below 3500rpm: 0.8-5Bar (11.6-72.5psi)
Oil pressure above 3500rpm: 2.0-5Bar (29-72.5psi)
Oil temp ground ops: 100°C (-4 – 212°F)
Oil temp: min 50°C before max power, limit 130°C (120 – 266°F)
Coolant temp ground ops: -20 – 90°C (-4 – 194°F)
Coolant temp normal operations: 40 – 120°C (104 – 248°F)
Fuel pressure: 2.5-4.0Bar (36-58psi)
EGT limits: 950°C (1742F°)
EGT-split: 200°C below 3ltr/hr, 500°C above 3ltr/hr
Ambient temperature: Ground -20 – 50°C (-4 – 120°F)
Ambient temperature: Flight -40 – 50°C (-40 – 120°F)
Oil consumption: Max. 0.06 l/h (0.13 liq pt/h)
–
Description & Key Features

Fully sequential ignition and fuel control
Closed loop EGT
Adaptive knock control
High Boost / Low Boost function
CAN data stream
EFIS compatible
4-Cylinder
4-stroke liquid-/air-cooled engine with opposed cylinders
Dry sump forced lubrication with separate oil tank, automatic adjustment by hydraulic valve tappets
Redundant electronic fuel injection and ignition
Fully programable dual Engine Management System
Dual alternators (15/35Amp)
Electric starter (12 or 24 volt)
Propeller speed reduction gearbox (2.54:1)
Flow optimized equal lenght air intake system / intercooler
Turbocharger / stainless steel exhaust
TBO 2000 hrs
Maximum operating altitude 23.000 feet
Maintenance in accordance with the Rotax® 916iS LMM/HMM. (Supplementary EP917/918Ti MM

• Tested To 220HP
• Dual ECU, Fully Redundant, Full FADEC
• CAN Aerospace – Communicates with Garmin, Dynon…
• Same Mounting Points And Dimensions As 915/916iS
• Sea Level Power Up To 15.000’
• Service Ceiling 23.000’
• Fully Sequential Fuel & Ignition Control
• Closed Loop EGT & Injector Control
• Adaptive Knock Control For Max Efficiency
• Fully User Tunable And Programmable ECU (2D/3D/4D)
• In-Flight High / Low Boost Setting
• Based On The Already Prooven 916iS
• Gyrocopter, Fixed wing, Helicopter, UAV, Airboat
• TBO 2000
• Available With Hyd.Governor Intake & Stubby Intake

 

[tsaG]

Having a 6 Cylinder Rotax engine for the RV-10 would be a game changer to the gas guzzling lycomings. As I understand, there is currently no alternative in the 250HP range.

 

[chris1seto]

I think part of the issue is that the 390 is a certified engine used in Cirrus SR20 training aircraft. We Vans builders are only one part of the demand pool for that engine. Our production slots are allocated, I'm sure, and since no one else produces the engine, we have to wait our turn. Add in the still disrupted supply chain too.

As much as I hate to say it, I want and expect Lycoming to take its time, get it right so I have a reliable engine when I finally get it. We don't need any more LCP-like fiascos.

Either we're low on the totem pole for demand pool, or the volume is too low to fill out demand. We can't win.

I've had a Lycoming overhauled o360 on order for my pa28 for at least a year now, with the date continually being pushed back. I just can't understand how there isn't a little more effort bring put into increasing the throughput of making these engines given the demand.

My rv10 will hopefully have its engine ship this week from Barrett. Vans let me cancel my io540 order from them when they told me the lead time would be 2.5 years, which I assume is the base lead time.

 

[jliltd]

Lycoming has gone off the rails. I got a quote on a factory new Lycoming angle-valve TIO-540-AJ1A for $261,000.00. For one piston engine. A factory new Continental TSIO-550 is half that price, which is still too much.

Edit: I forgot to mention the quoted price did not include the core charge.

 

[Jonnyb]

It's interesting the Cirrus uses the IO-390 as mentioned before.
That engine is currently running at a price of $145,000 from Air Power Inc.
If you were Lycoming and only had a limited supply of 390 crank shafts, whose engine would you prioritise building?
But let's be honest, $145k for an engine is just nuts!!!!

 

[IO390]

Having a 6 Cylinder Rotax engine for the RV-10 would be a game changer to the gas guzzling lycomings. As I understand, there is currently no alternative in the 250HP range.

The difference in BSFC between a leaned lycoming and a rotax isn’t night and day different. Rotax 912s are a smaller lower power engine, so of course they’ll use less fuel, but make less power as a result. If rotax built a 250hp engine it might not be massively more efficient than an IO540

Flying my RV6 side by side with rotax machines like an RV12 or a Bristell (not the ultra efficient types like a Europa) I have LESS fuel flow on my lycoming.

 

[mic2377]

I had a Titan IO-340 on my previous RANS S21 (I have an S21 with 916IS now). It was a great motor. I’m surprised the 370 is only 195hp, but that might be fine in the RV15 in most cases. What price did the quote you for the OX-370?

The bare engine is $36k, and $45k with carb, two mags, and rest of accessories. It is a non-counter-weighted engine. Based on these costs and the reduced lead time I ponder whether it would have been a better decision to fit one of these to my RV-7A instead of the $20k+ IRAN for a leaking case for the 0-360 currently on it.

 

[Freemasm]

..... I’m surprised the 370 is only 195hp, but that might be fine in the RV15 in most cases. .....

If you're talking the stroked Titan Ly-clone, it can produce a bit more depending on options. They used to dyno each of these but stopped many years back and just nameplated everything with a flat 195HP.

Here's some tested numbers with limited options listed. Would be nice to know what, if any spark advance was used.

I bought (not yet flying) a Titan for other reasons. Lycoming wouldn't give me the time of day when I tried asking questions prior to ordering a powerplant. Begging someone to take my money is a monster pet peeve of mine. The since retired Mr. JB Ball at Conti was very helpful and saved me a lot of money. Personal touch can still count for something, even today.

Engine Model	Compression	Data Plate HP @ 2700RPM	Dyno Max HP / RPM	Notes
IOX370ClC1U8	9.6:1	200	200.6 / 2701	Mag
IOX370C4D1T8	9.6:1	200	202.2 / 2749	Pmag Cold Ind
IOX370C4E1T8	9.6:1	200	206.5 / 2741	EFII
IOX370CLJ1T4	9.6:1	200	210.1 / 2725	EFII Cold Ind
IOX370C4D1T8	9.6:1	200	203.6 / 2706
IOX370CLB1T8	9.6:1	200	200.0 / 2711
IOX370C4B1T8	9.6:1	200	202.6 / 2759
IOX370CLJ1T4	9.6:1	200	209.9 / 2722
IOX370C4D1T8	9.6:1	200	198.0 / 2684
IOX370C4B1T8	9.6:1	200	199.9 / 2710
IOX370A4E1T4	9.6:1	195	196.8 / 2657
IOX370A4D1T4	9.3:1	205	194.0 / 2625	EFII

 

[Jonnyb]

James Ball has retired!?
That would be why he hasn’t replied to my email then.

 

[Freemasm]

James Ball has retired!?
That would be why he hasn’t replied to my email then.

A little while back. Great dude.

 

[mic2377]

Lycoming has gone off the rails. I got a quote on a factory new Lycoming angle-valve TIO-540-AJ1A for $261,000.00. For one piston engine. A factory new Continental TSIO-550 is half that price, which is still too much.

If you boil this down to raw price this is laughable. If prices continue to increase engine costs like this are approaching turbine territory... Without the much better tech and reliability that goes along with it. It is almost like Lycoming wants GA to die but is trying to milk every last dollar out of it before it fades into oblivion.

In comparison, a factory new Austro AE 300 for a DA40 is $60k. They don't even bother rebuilding these, you get a brand new engine. Even with the doubled engine costs in a twin like a DA42/62, this would still be cheaper by nearly 2x compared to a SINGLE Lycoming engine.

 

[IO390]

If you boil this down to raw price this is laughable. If prices continue to increase engine costs like this are approaching turbine territory... Without the much better tech and reliability that goes along with it. It is almost like Lycoming wants GA to die but is trying to milk every last dollar out of it before it fades into oblivion.

In comparison, a factory new Austro AE 300 for a DA40 is $60k. They don't even bother rebuilding these, you get a brand new engine. Even with the doubled engine costs in a twin like a DA42/62, this would still be cheaper by nearly 2x compared to a SINGLE Lycoming engine.

I agree the price is hilarious. Whilst I much prefer flying with my Lyc compared to other engine brands, the actual design is CHEAP. It is not high tech - it wasn't high tech in the 50s and it definitely is not now. They were designed as a cheap and reliable enough engine to satisfy the burgeoning general aviation market in the decades after world war 2. And as I've found, the parts quality does not remotely match the price.

 

[N10KE]

If you boil this down to raw price this is laughable. If prices continue to increase engine costs like this are approaching turbine territory... Without the much better tech and reliability that goes along with it. It is almost like Lycoming wants GA to die but is trying to milk every last dollar out of it before it fades into oblivion.

In comparison, a factory new Austro AE 300 for a DA40 is $60k. They don't even bother rebuilding these, you get a brand new engine. Even with the doubled engine costs in a twin like a DA42/62, this would still be cheaper by nearly 2x compared to a SINGLE Lycoming engine.

Yeah the Austro’s are great. Multiple SB’s, MSB’s and the latest AD’s for piston replacement. Fortunately, most of the engine failures have occurred on the twins (DA42 & 62) and not on the single DA40NG. Another automotive conversion with questionable reliability. Maybe they will get there one day, but they’re not there yet.

 

[eavila1]

A few thoughts t to echo IO390's comments...

All this talk of crazy $$$ over valued is leaning me heavy towards A&P....slowly gathering my own parts and building my own on the next go around. God willing. Wishful thinking?

This is still 1940 tractor technology but it does need to be done right.

 

[dmattmul]

If you boil this down to raw price this is laughable. If prices continue to increase engine costs like this are approaching turbine territory... Without the much better tech and reliability that goes along with it. It is almost like Lycoming wants GA to die but is trying to milk every last dollar out of it before it fades into oblivion.

In comparison, a factory new Austro AE 300 for a DA40 is $60k. They don't even bother rebuilding these, you get a brand new engine. Even with the doubled engine costs in a twin like a DA42/62, this would still be cheaper by nearly 2x compared to a SINGLE Lycoming engine.

Does the AE 300 still have a mandatory 12-year replacement?

 

[mstrauss]

I am so fed up with this and called to cancel my order if I can get my deposit back. I e-mailed Chris at Lycoming (Cgayman at Lycoming.com) who I was referred to by VANS and he told me that the contract is between me and VANS so I should ask them for my money. Of course VANS is telling me that the problem is with Lycoming and they have nothing to do with the delay. I find that a rather clever setup, one points to the other and the other points to the first person.

I think as long as we go along with this charade, we can not expect anything else.

Totally understand your frustration, I have been there. It took 3.5 years for my TB390. That said, I don’t understand why you would ask Lycoming for a refund of your deposit. They don’t have your money, and you have no contract with them. Have you asked Vans for a refund? If so, what did they say?

 

[N8DAV8R]

A few thoughts t to echo IO390's comments...

All this talk of crazy $$$ over valued is leaning me heavy towards A&P....slowly gathering my own parts and building my own on the next go around. God willing. Wishful thinking?

This is still 1940 tractor technology but it does need to be done right.

Go take the Lycoming service course! I thought it was a lot of fun, and great way to spend a week around interested airplane people. Each day is split 50/50 between classroom and lab. The instruction is very good, and you do a tear down and re-build of an O-360. It will be much more relevant to your engine building mission than A&P prep where you're sorting hardware, practicing safety wire, and changing tires and brakes.

You also get a bit of a peek inside the organization who's behavior is reflected in the comments here. None of this stuff comes as a surprise after several days of immersion in the history and development of Lycoming engines, and a thorough factory tour of their 100+ year old building. It's impressive for a sewing machine company, but a little but grim relative to what most of us would expect from a modern aircraft engine production line.

 

[TS Flightlines]

Does the AE 300 still have a mandatory 12-year replacement?

We dont have a dog in this fight, other than Steve has a kit on order. So I'll just throw in my personal $.02 in here, if I may. I'm somewhat puzzled by the lack of parts for the Lycomings. I'm told by a reliable source in the industry that crankshafts are a hard part to make because of the materials, and processes. Maybe so. I'm probably way off base here, but we know that there are engines out there that run with more load, more cycles and much higher RPM than a Lycoming, and those cranks are fairly available. I'm also alittle puzzled by a BIG corporation hasnt researched this availabity issue and come up with a solution.

 

[Bavafa]

Totally understand your frustration, I have been there. It took 3.5 years for my TB390. That said, I don’t understand why you would ask Lycoming for a refund of your deposit. They don’t have your money, and you have no contract with them. Have you asked Vans for a refund? If so, what did they say?

I did ask VANS and they referred me to Chris at Lycoming, only then I realized that VANS has my money and not Lycoming.

 

[Dugaru]

Begging someone to take my money is a monster pet peeve of mine.

Hard agree. Amazing how often you see this in aviation.

 

[eavila1]

Go take the Lycoming service course! I thought it was a lot of fun, and great way to spend a week around interested airplane people. Each day is split 50/50 between classroom and lab. The instruction is very good, and you do a tear down and re-build of an O-360. It will be much more relevant to your engine building mission than A&P prep where you're sorting hardware, practicing safety wire, and changing tires and brakes.

You also get a bit of a peek inside the organization who's behavior is reflected in the comments here. None of this stuff comes as a surprise after several days of immersion in the history and development of Lycoming engines, and a thorough factory tour of their 100+ year old building. It's impressive for a sewing machine company, but a little but grim relative to what most of us would expect from a modern aircraft engine production line.

Excellent advice Nate! I would love to do that...I'll look up the course. Assuming they still offer this

 

[Clayvt]

I put my deposit for a titan xio370 down in march of ‘25 and was quoted a 14 month lead time so here soon we’ll see how close they get…I’ll update when it happens.

 

[RVbySDI]

James Ball has retired!?
That would be why he hasn’t replied to my email then.

There is no one left at Continental from ECI anymore. Anyone there that does discuss the Titan (ECI) engines can only discuss the current Continental company line answers to any technical questions. I miss working with suppliers who were knowledgeable about their products and were willing to talk with you about them.

 

[Tall_Order]

Vadim took over from James, and was able to get the answer usually within the day for any technical detail I ever needed. Plus, they were very helpful with the deletions/substitutions I needed.

 

[lr172]

. I'm told by a reliable source in the industry that crankshafts are a hard part to make because of the materials, and processes. Maybe so. I'm probably way off base here, but we know that there are engines out there that run with more load, more cycles and much higher RPM than a Lycoming, and those cranks are fairly available. I'm also alittle puzzled by a BIG corporation hasnt researched this availabity issue and come up with a solution.

Sorry, but call BS on that.

90 million cars are produced globally each year and each one has a crankshaft, not unlike the lycoming version. Clearly its not that hard. Sure the effort to create a suuply chain with more than one vendor takes effort. Apparently Lyc is not willing to put in that effort. I suspect summit racing sells more cranks than Lyc and they find a way.

 

[RVbySDI]

Vadim took over from James, and was able to get the answer usually within the day for any technical detail I ever needed. Plus, they were very helpful with the deletions/substitutions I needed.

I agree that Vadim is helpful. However, to my point mentioned, he does not know any more details about the Titan engines than what the current Continental technical personnel can tell him. It was not just James Ball I used to be able to talk to at ECI. I used to be able to talk to the people who actually designed and built those engines. All of this holds true at Vans also. In the past there was opportunity to talk with highly knowledgeable technical support who had first hand experience with the topic I would call about. I cannot talk to any of those individuals at Vans any longer either.

 

[Jjackh10]

We dont have a dog in this fight, other than Steve has a kit on order. So I'll just throw in my personal $.02 in here, if I may. I'm somewhat puzzled by the lack of parts for the Lycomings. I'm told by a reliable source in the industry that crankshafts are a hard part to make because of the materials, and processes. Maybe so. I'm probably way off base here, but we know that there are engines out there that run with more load, more cycles and much higher RPM than a Lycoming, and those cranks are fairly available. I'm also alittle puzzled by a BIG corporation hasnt researched this availabity issue and come up with a solution.

Lycoming cranks are made by Callies Performance (an automotive performance company). I'm certain Scat or Bryant or any of the other auto racing mfg's could build them too.

 

[Phyrcooler]

I have little doubt that someone COULD start producing parts and/or complete engines to compete. This whole thing has become so stupidly out of control. However, I see two problems. Liability insurance and profiteering.

In spite of the General Aviation Revitalization Act of 1994, our litigiousness society is unchanged. And the costs of insurance are ever increasing across broad markets. Getting someone to throw their hat in the ring AND getting an insurance underwriter to cover is no small mountain to traverse.

The other issue I’ve discussed before is the element of profit and greed. That idea will turn some off here, but I think it’s real. If someone could bring to market an engine for 35k, would they altruistically do so when then know their competitors charge twice that? Doubtful. Could competition bring down prices SOME? Maybe. Unfortunately as demonstrated by the YEARS long backlog, the demand far outstrips production, that I’m not sure that even a second source would be enough of an impact to alter pricing much. Quite negative thoughts I know. I expect argument, and trust me, I’d love to be proven wrong.

Maybe EAA should start a non-profit parts sourcing division. For the good of mankind and the planes we fly.

 

[TS Flightlines]

Sorry, but call BS on that.

90 million cars are produced globally each year and each one has a crankshaft, not unlike the lycoming version. Clearly its not that hard. Sure the effort to create a suuply chain with more than one vendor takes effort. Apparently Lyc is not willing to put in that effort. I suspect summit racing sells more cranks than Lyc and they find a way.

Larry==I was kinda eluding to that. It cant be that hard, EVEN if you had a billet blank and a CNC lathe. Lets face it, if an NASCAR car engine can turn a BUNCH of RPM for the races they run, then whats the deal with a Lycoming crank.

 

[lr172]

Larry==I was kinda eluding to that. It cant be that hard, EVEN if you had a billet blank and a CNC lathe. Lets face it, if an NASCAR car engine can turn a BUNCH of RPM for the races they run, then whats the deal with a Lycoming crank.

Yes, absolutely nothing unique about a Lyc crank other than the unique configuration. Like many cranks, it would need a unique casting, but that is meat and potatoes for any crank maker. I suspect there was not enough volume for lyc to go to a second supplier and when demand spiked, their startegy was to keep supply constant to drive up prices and saw no need to expand the supply chain. It seems pretty obvious that lyc has chosen to use the excessive demand to drive up prices vs increasing sales volume. Can't say I blame them; But do sit back and wait for the day they get burned by it. I am certain they will, just have no idea how long it will take. Their strategy greatly helps to lower barriers to entry for competitors. Still surprised that superior or conti hasn't lowered prices and ramped up volume. I would be shocked if rotax wasn't accelerating efforts to get into Lyc's market.

 

[Mark Dickens]

Yes, absolutely nothing unique about a Lyc crank other than the unique configuration. Like many cranks, it would need a unique casting, but that is meat and potatoes for any crank maker. I suspect there was not enough volume for lyc to go to a second supplier and when demand spiked, their startegy was to keep supply constant to drive up prices and saw no need to expand the supply chain. It seems pretty obvious that lyc has chosen to use the excessive demand to drive up prices vs increasing sales volume. Can't say I blame them; But do sit back and wait for the day they get burned by it. I am certain they will, just have no idea how long it will take. Their strategy greatly helps to lower barriers to entry for competitors. Still surprised that superior or conti hasn't lowered prices and ramped up volume. I would be shocked if rotax wasn't accelerating efforts to get into Lyc's market.

I agree with Lycoming's strategy. Trying to flex up manufacturing to meet demand in the short term is how you end up with LCP type issues and ADs...I don't like having to wait for my engine, but sure as heck don't want to deal with factory recalls and reliability issues. I want them to make what they know how to make with suppliers they can count on for quality work...

 

[bertschb]

"Greed"....hmmmmm. If you listed your house for $500K and you got two offers, one for $500K and the other for $1M, which offer would you take? I doubt if anybody would turn down the $1M offer. Is that greed?

Engine pricing is really no different. Lycoming is charging me $80,000 because they know I'm willing to pay it. Nothing greedy about that. Nobody is forcing me to buy their engine. Just like virtually every business, Lycoming is charging what their customers are willing to pay. Every business wants to maximize profit. If they charge too much, people will stop buying their product and they go out of business. Lycoming doesn't appear to be charging too much. Yet.

What I don't understand is why another business (or three) doesn't see an opportunity for the experimental engine market and just build a Lycoming clone. It isn't difficult to build a 75 year old VW engine. Just guessing here but it seems like they would still be highly profitable at half the price without the liability overhead for producing certified engines. Clearly I'm wrong because nobody else is really competing with Lycoming. If they were, we wouldn't have this thread

As an aside - I haven't received my "engine delay" email from Vans yet. Based on what I've read here, I'm sure it's coming.

 

[N8DAV8R]

Engine pricing is really no different. Lycoming is charging me $80,000 because they know I'm willing to pay it. Nothing greedy about that. Nobody is forcing me to buy their engine. Just like virtually every business, Lycoming is charging what their customers are willing to pay. Every business wants to maximize profit. If they charge too much, people will stop buying their product and they go out of business. Lycoming doesn't appear to be charging too much. Yet.

What I don't understand is why another business (or three) doesn't see an opportunity for the experimental engine market and just build a Lycoming clone. It isn't difficult to build a 75 year old VW engine. Just guessing here but it seems like they would still be highly profitable at half the price without the liability overhead for producing certified engines. Clearly I'm wrong because nobody else is really competing with Lycoming. If they were, we wouldn't have this thread

With Van's being the whale in the experimental category of this market, they provide Lycoming with a captive customer base. A lot of us builders accept as truth that an airplane is designed around an engine and that making an engine change comes with compromises to performance and build time. We want the airplane that Van's designed.

Point being, Van's has a role in enabling this behavior from Lycoming for experimental engines. I have seen the line up of engines sitting outside their test cell, lots and lots of tags for Van's aircraft. Comments like those from @Bavafa illustrate why Lycoming's practices become a Van's problem, I'm confident he's not the only one with that reaction. I wonder if there is a point where engine choice influences the type of aircraft Van's decides to produce. They have one reasonably successful aircraft with a Rotax engine, certainly they could do more.

Just like some of us expect Rotax to eat some of Lycoming's lunch in the long run, I think other kit designers who are not tied at the hip to Lycoming may do the same to Van's. This theme of theirs that the only path to 'Total Performance' runs through Williamsport will only hold so much water.