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Am I part of the problem

hydroguy2

hydroguy2

Well Known Member
I've always thought of myself as a reasonably responsible pilot. But the recent "Hater" post and AOPA fiasco has made me examine my own flying a little closer. Maybe I'm not as safe and responsible as I could or should be.

Case in point, Saturday I went to a airport dedication/breakfast fly-in. I arrived right behind 2 other planes. I was on the 45 while they made a low pass to check the wind and runway condition. I saw the spacing wasn't right, so chose to do a 360 about 2 miles off the approach end and announced it. As I rolled out of the 360, the DA-20 turned inside of me, which was fine. The #2 was midfield downwind, made a call and told me to go ahead behind the Diamond while he extended. All fair, so far so good we're all talking and have visual of each other. I made one of my best landings ever in front of a crowd(that's right witnesses) and was feeling pretty good.

After a hour or so, I needed to leave to get back for work. It was a small gathering of maybe 20 planes mostly Cessna, cubs, etc. Clearly Aurora and Kurt's RV-6a were the speedy ones on the ramp at 9S4. I was asked to do a low pass for the crowd. Sure! I was feeling fat dumb and happy, why not? 9S4 is in a canyon so pattern is tight. After my runup, I announced my intentions to take off on RY12, make a teardrop back for a lowpass RY30. Made my call as I turned back for a final RY30 low pass. I was a little fast as I crossed the fence and higher than I had planned, but announced a climbing right turn into the canyon to the north. they had a good show and radio'd thanks for coming. I kept climbing and headed home, fat dumb and happy.

Other than thinking about smacking a bird, or possibly NORDO coming in from the north. I did NOT think anything I did was irresponsible or improper. Now I'm not so sure.
1. Loitering at the approach end.
2. non conventional take-off teardrop back to final
3. low pass for a crowd
4. climbing right turnout into a canyon with potential incoming traffic.

Yep I learned something about myself the last couple days. I need to evaluate my decision skills. I need Think before not after. I need to consider others.
 
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You were on the radio, and a NORDO in that canyon setting........better be very vigilant in looking for aircraft. I don't see a problem.

BTW--- I didn't fly a pattern there either. Just a straight in to 30, looking at the windsock as I approached. Happily the wind was in my favor.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
I don't know what the exact wording of the FAA regs is, but to do a low pass in front of an invited assembly of persons, in Canada, is unlawful without an airshow waiver. Getting busted for it, on the other hand, is quite another thing. Claiming that you were doing a "precautionary approach" to check out the runway before landing on arrival may get a phone call. Doing a teardrop on departure with a low pass in the opposite direction to traffic would be hard to explain away as a "standard procedure."
 
hydroguy2 said:
...
3. low pass for a crowd
...
Click to expand...
Q: What does a redneck say just before killing himself?
A: Hey y'all, watch this.

Not calling you a "redneck", just giving you something to think about next time the pressure is on to do something that might not work out so well.
 
N941WR said:
Q: What does a redneck say just before killing himself?
A: Hey y'all, watch this.

Not calling you a "redneck", just giving you something to think about next time the pressure is on to do something that might not work out so well.
Click to expand...

Never felt like there was pressure, I could have easily took off and said "maybe next time". Never felt unsafe either...BUT I understand what you're saying and will be doing some self reflection for sure.
 
I've seen it flown, I've flown it myself. Is it unsafe if performed by a competent pilot, I don't see it that way. I won't perform this anymore as I have too much to loose at this point. My concern is someone complains
it's unsafe and I get to spend lots of my time and money defending what I did.

You were not aerobatic in the situation you presented.

Our predecessors did it many times And viewers thought it wonderful and amazing as most people did not see airplanes too often. We called them barnstormers. Now we have those people who feel they can interpret intent and apply their discernment of danger and trouble begins.

No I don't do this any more, I save it for the airshow where I have a waiver to protect ME from THEM. I think a low pass is exhilarating, for me but the penalty outweighs the benefit


Tad Sargent
 
Regardless of the specific situation, self-evaluation (even/especially after the fact) shows a good risk management attitude! Sure, we'd all like to say that we have never done anything with an airplane that we didn't thoroughly evaluate before-hand, bu I bet if I asked for a show of hands of anyone who hasn't looked back on something they did and said "hmmm....", their wouldn't be many takers.

You don't need to be a member of a team operation to debrief what you have done - it is easy and useful to debrief yourself after each flight. Wee the decisions you made good ones? How was your skill-based performance? Was there anything that happened that you weren't expecting? Good questions to get you started. I do it every day - after very flight.

If you want answers, you have to ask questions - even of yourself.

Paul
 
The only part of it that I definitely can say I would be uncomfortable with is performing the pass counter to traffic. I feel like that's outside of my comfort zone. If I know traffic is going in a certain direction, I'm always going to keep my actions going that same direction. The rest of it...situational I suppose.
 
Phlyan Pan said:
The only part of it that I definitely can say I would be uncomfortable with is performing the pass counter to traffic. I feel like that's outside of my comfort zone. If I know traffic is going in a certain direction, I'm always going to keep my actions going that same direction. The rest of it...situational I suppose.
Click to expand...

In reality, this airport is considered low use. If the arriving aircraft have been on the ground for an hour or so, as the pilots enjoy breakfast, most likely an active pattern was not in progress at the time of the flyby..........as appears to be the case.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
I am "on the fence" on this. I don't see a huge danger in it. As long as the low pass is on the upwind and not a crazy speed and with a vertical pull up. I don't really see the hazard. That said, I have done a total of 2 "low passes" in 23 years of flying. One was requested by the tower. The other was similar to Brian's situation. Neither was dangerous or an incursion into the traffic pattern.

I am as conservative of a flyer as you will ever meet, but I too grew up looking through fences at airports watching planes go by. When occasionally they would do a go around or low pass, that was a highlight. I know people are sensitive to aviation safety right now and rightfully so, but airplanes are still really cool. I spend part of my day in a maintenance hangar at the approach end of our runway and still find myself turning to watch the landings of just about about every approaching aircraft.

The "problem" that I do see is that some people have a total disregard for the traffic pattern. And the the NORDO, that's a whole nother topic. Fix both of those problems and now you have solved some real hazards.
 
Thanks guys. I thought about it, slept on it and am okay with my choices, but I may make a different choice next time. I certainly have a different outlook about situations like this. I've done a multiple low passes before for a TV commercial, but that was at a towered airport under ATC control.

I guess my biggest concern is, I consider myself a lowtime pilot at 330hrs. I am right in the "dangerzone" for pilots, so wondered if I'm overconfident with my skills and decisions.

Anyway. Got me thinking and hopefully others too.
 
L.Adamson said:
In reality, this airport is considered low use. If the arriving aircraft have been on the ground for an hour or so, as the pilots enjoy breakfast, most likely an active pattern was not in progress at the time of the flyby..........as appears to be the case.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
Click to expand...

Fair enough, I just know that for me, I won't go against what the traffic should be on purpose. We have a lot of grass strips around me with a lot of random folks that stop by all the time without radios. They know what the wind is and they know what the traffic is before they take off so the chances of someone entering into a standard pattern at random intervals is real. Again, I'm just saying it's my rule for me that's all.
 
FAR 91.119

I wonder if the following applies to this case:

FAR Sec. 91.119

Minimum safe altitudes: General.

Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:
(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.
(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.
(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.


During the low pass, it doesn't sound like your intent was landing. And if there was a crowd, the FAA would probably consider this a congested area (open air assembly of persons).

Even if it was not congested, I wonder if perhaps you came within 500 feet of a person, vehicle, or structure.
 
TThurston said:
I wonder if the following applies to this case:

FAR Sec. 91.119

Minimum safe altitudes: General.

Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:
(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.
(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.
(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.


During the low pass, it doesn't sound like your intent was landing. And if there was a crowd, the FAA would probably consider this a congested area (open air assembly of persons).

Even if it was not congested, I wonder if perhaps you came within 500 feet of a person, vehicle, or structure.
Click to expand...

On the other hand....... a nearby tower to you........allowed two high speed passes by a Lancair a few weeks ago. We all appreciated it, because I haven't been to Reno lately. I know the airport in question is non-towered, but...

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
TThurston said:
I wonder if the following applies to this case:

FAR Sec. 91.119

Minimum safe altitudes: General.

Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:
(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.
(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.
(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.


During the low pass, it doesn't sound like your intent was landing. And if there was a crowd, the FAA would probably consider this a congested area (open air assembly of persons).

Even if it was not congested, I wonder if perhaps you came within 500 feet of a person, vehicle, or structure.
Click to expand...

A.I.M. 4-3-12 allows for a low approach (also "low pass"). One could easily justify a safely executed low pass as simply as a runway flyover safety check or as my flight students experience, cross wind slip practice. I really think what happens at the end of the low pass is what can make this dangerous. Going vertical or simply pulling up too quickly can be an issue.
 
apkp777 said:
A.I.M. 4-3-12 allows for a low approach (also "low pass"). One could easily justify a safely executed low pass as simply as a runway flyover safety check or as my flight students experience, cross wind slip practice. I really think what happens at the end of the low pass is what can make this dangerous. Going vertical or simply pulling up too quickly can be an issue.
Click to expand...

The AIM even says to watch out....:)

4-3-12. Low Approach

a. A low approach (sometimes referred to as a low pass) is the go-around maneuver following an approach. Instead of landing or making a touch-and-go, a pilot may wish to go around (low approach) in order to expedite a particular operation (a series of practice instrument approaches is an example of such an operation). Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, the low approach should be made straight ahead, with no turns or climb made until the pilot has made a thorough visual check for other aircraft in the area.
 
enter the upwind

Loitering on final is not a good idea, even if it's 2 miles out! It's basically a straight in approach. I fly a cub with no radios and my final is between a 1/4 and 1/2 mile...........thats what we call the traffic pattern an I expect eveyone to respect that unless they are in IMC conditions and on an an instrument approach! The 20-20 was just doing what was "normal"! Take the upwind leg next time and go around that way!
The Wizzard....30+ years flight instructing but still learning!

Thanks for the post, no trashing, just helping! No offense! ( I see this happen a lot!) Why don't more instructors teach what an upwind leg is all about!
 
The Wizzard said:
Loitering on final is not a good idea, even if it's 2 miles out! It's basically a straight in approach. I fly a cub with no radios and my final is between a 1/4 and 1/2 mile...........thats what we call the traffic pattern an I expect eveyone to respect that unless they are in IMC conditions and on an an instrument approach! The 20-20 was just doing what was "normal"! Take the upwind leg next time and go around that way!
The Wizzard....30+ years flight instructing but still learning!

Thanks for the post, no trashing, just helping! No offense! ( I see this happen a lot!) Why don't more instructors teach what an upwind leg is all about!
Click to expand...

Why "No radios", I don't get that.
 
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The Wizzard said:
Loitering on final is not a good idea, even if it's 2 miles out! It's basically a straight in approach. I fly a cub with no radios and my final is between a 1/4 and 1/2 mile...........thats what we call the traffic pattern an I expect eveyone to respect that unless they are in IMC conditions and on an an instrument approach! The 20-20 was just doing what was "normal"! Take the upwind leg next time and go around that way!
The Wizzard....30+ years flight instructing but still learning!
Click to expand...

How can people respect your final spacing if they don't see you (with no radio)? is your cub a very colorful aircraft?

what is the "20-20" ? the da-20?
 
why no radios?

I learned to fly without a radio, the cub has no electrical system, and in my opinion its all about looking out the window. You don't need radios when your looking outside. Do you use a radio when you go boating or waterskiing?

Look, If your shooting an instrument approach a radio is required, and you should be reporting your position, however flying vfr at an uncontrolled airport it is not. Have you ever turned the thing off and flown in the pattern? I will bet that your situational awareness greatly improves and you can then understand why its so upsetting when people aren't where they are supposed to be. Come on up to Waynesville ohio and we will show you how it works! better yet, how about Rheinbeck!

Dave
 
apkp777 said:
Why "No radios", I don't get that.
Click to expand...

Many of the older airplanes, such as a Cub or my old '41 T-craft didn't have electrical systems or, most importantly, shielded ignition harnesses. Thus, even if the pilot used a hand held radio, you wouldn?t be able to hear them.

If the plane was changed over to a shielded ignition harness and the pilot is using a hand held radio (as I did with my T-craft), then it is not uncommon for the batteries to die. It is also not uncommon for someone with an electrical system and radio to tune in the wrong frequency when in the pattern.

This is just another reason not to come ripping into the pattern at 150 knots. There could be much slower planes flying around that aren't able to announce their position.

Oh, and these planes won't show up on a TCAS because they don't have transponders either.
 
N941WR said:
Many of the older airplanes, such as a Cub or my old '41 T-craft didn't have electrical systems or, most importantly, shielded ignition harnesses. Thus, even if the pilot used a hand held radio, you wouldn’t be able to hear them.

If the plane was changed over to a shielded ignition harness and the pilot is using a hand held radio (as I did with my T-craft), then it is not uncommon for the batteries to die. It is also not uncommon for someone with an electrical system and radio to tune in the wrong frequency when in the pattern.

This is just another reason not to come ripping into the pattern at 150 knots. There could be much slower planes flying around that aren't able to announce their position.

Oh, and these planes won't show up on a TCAS because they don't have transponders either.
Click to expand...

When I complain about NORDO.............I've heard the same thing, which is valid. On the otherhand, just about anyone who wants to get around the problem can. And most around here have, sans the transponder. The plane sharing our hangar uses a charger to keep the handheld charged. IMO, with much more conjestion than the "good old days" of open country, NORDO doesn't make much sense, safety wise.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
Nordo

I guess the point I am am trying to make is that NORDO is very common! It's not a question of "saftey wise" or not it's a reality! If I carry a hand held radio or if I am in an airplane with a radio I usually spent most of my time outside the window LOOKING and LISTENING as well! No much talking but listening!
 
The Wizzard said:
I guess the point I am am trying to make is that NORDO is very common! It's not a question of "saftey wise" or not it's a reality! If I carry a hand held radio or if I am in an airplane with a radio I usually spent most of my time outside the window LOOKING and LISTENING as well! No much talking but listening!
Click to expand...

I live under a busy un-controlled airport pattern, and will never agree on NORDO. This isn't Reinbeck or water skiing.........at which I excelled.. way back in the old days. The need to communicate around here is very important, as aircraft easily seem to disappear into the background.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
NORDO

Here is my own personal NORDO experience at Evergreen Field in Vancouver, WA:
1. I was slipping a white w/ red stripe Taylorcraft BC12D on short final when a Cardinal pulled into position and held.
2. I offset to the right so I could see what he was doing and sure enough he took off as I was paralleling him.
3. I was in the air, over the middle of the runway, needed to re-enter the pattern from a non-standard location not of my own doing without a radio.

This experience caused me to purchase a hand-held radio. Was I in the right and the other fellow in the wrong? Absolutely. Would I have been just as dead if his mistake had resulted in me being wadded up? Yes.

It is clear that you have strong feelings about being NORDO and what other pilots should be doing. Unfortunately, you can only control your behavior and not that of other pilots. I imagine that 98% + of aircraft have radios and that most pilots have expectations that aircraft are radio equipped. A new hand-held can be purchased for less than $200. Will a radio solve every problem? Of course not, but it will improve one's odds. Some times it is better to bow to convention than to be dead right. I had to learn the hard way. Perhaps you can reconsider and benefit from my experience.

Here are other examples of convention:

1. 90+% of folks on the North American continent speak English. Business is conducted in English. Those who don't speak English have just volunteered to become part of the low-wage labor pool, where a strong back is the only job criteria.

2. Bicycles vs. cars and motorcycles vs. cars. I can tell you who wins in a conflict every time, regardless of who has the right-of-way.

My wish for you (and every pilot) is many hours of safe flying enjoying the blessings of flight.

LarryT
 
LarryT said:
... A new hand-held can be purchased for less than $200....
Click to expand...
As I tried to point out in my post above, the cost of getting a radio is much higher than the $200 radio purchase, IF the no-electric aircraft being flown doesn't have a shielded ignition system. I will require the replacement of both mags, the wiring harness, the plugs, and in many cases, bumps have to be added to the top of the cowl and painted. Then add in the cost of headsets and possibly a battery powered intercom and you can quickly exceed the value of many of the older aircraft. (Except Cubs, which have gotten crazy expensive.)

For someone who is flying on a budget, this expense could drive them out of flying, and who would want to do that?

While I flew my BC12/65 with a handheld radio, it was limited in transmission distance and battery life (even when starting with a full charge).

We as pilots must be aware that we could cross paths with a no-radio aircraft at any time and by "no-radio" I'm also talking about an RV, C-172, etc. where the pilot dialed in the wrong frequency.

Let's keep our heads on a swivel.
 
I see a lot of people dwell on low passes being dangerous...has anyone ever seen an accident occur due to a low pass? I've seen TONS of low passes, but no accidents...
 
yes there is an element of danger with the low pass. I've never seen it but a friend witnessed a bird strike(mallard) at 150mph at 50'agl that took off the canopy. not fatal, but luckily the guy landed in a mud flat before he passed out from blood loss.

I didn't feel any danger involved in my low pass and had informed everyone on the radio that day what was going to transpire......afterword, I worried about the people who didn't get the word AND how is it perceived by the non-flying public.

I like brats and other grilled meats, but I don't want to know as a hotdogger
 
Brian

First, thanks for posting and describing the case well. I'm taking is as a teachable moment and that's a good thing.

I use to operate at a 2100' grass strip with a number of no-radio aircraft (Cubs, Champs, etc). Very often, where one of the faster planes would visit, it was almost expected to have a "fly by" when they took off to head home.

What I take from this thread is I'll feel comfortable obliging the field with a low pass but I'll keep to the pattern and the pattern speed.

Oh, BTW, that "little grass strip" I was talking about records a little over 35,000 flight ops a year so fly-bys nearly always needed to be sequenced (even if they weren't) and very likely with antique, slow, no-radio aircraft.

Thanks again for posting. It's nice to learn something without having to learn it the hard way :)
 
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