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Airworthiness question

M

Maxrate

Well Known Member
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I’ll be straight up first. I’m a long time RV 7 builder and bought a biplane to learn aerobatics so that I could flight test, certify and fly acro in my -7, and eventually compete in it. I have an opportunity to get a plane that has a current airworthiness certificate but the owner has lost the logbooks. My question is would registering the plane to the new owner and a simple condition inspection with any required repairs make the plane legal to fly? What would the legal ramifications of the lost logbooks be to the new owner getting it back in the air?

Just to recap. It has an airworthiness certificate, lost logbooks and an out of date registration to the current owner. Thx all…..
 
Not an expert but my opinion Is that if its an experimental airplane, then the standard AROW documents and a current condition inspection should be all thats needed to be airworthy in the eyes of the FAA. If your talking certified, then you'd need AROW plus a valid annual inspection which should include all AD compliance as well.

Logbooks shouldn't impact airworthiness. I've heard Mike Busch say that the FAA only requires MX records to be kept for 1 year, but AD compliance in perpetuity. You should be fine to just start a new logbook under your ownership and move forward with a fresh Condition/annual inspection as the first entry.
 
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It’s not the logbooks themselves that are the problem - its at least one entry in the logs that you need to have - and you can’t really duplicate them without a lot of flying…or lying. You need to have the Phase 1 completion sign-off (including, I assume, the aerobatic maneuver entries) entered and signed by the person attesting to finishing them. And, of course, you have to have the Operating Limitations - if the person lost the logs…have they got those?

Then yes, if you have those entries somewhere, you also need a Condition Inspection statement to make it legal.
 
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Ironflight said:
It’s not the logbooks themselves that are the problem - its at least one entry in teh logs that you need to have - and you can’t really duplicate them without a lot of flying…or lying. You ned to have teh Phase 1 completion sign-off (including, I assume, the aerobatic maneuver entries) entered and signed by the person attesting to finishing them. And, of course, you have to have the Operatign Limitations - if the person lost the logs…have they got those?

Then yes, if you have those entries somewhere, you also need a Condition Inspection statement to make it legal.
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Paul,

I assume your last sentence is referring to the "original" condition inspection done by the builder at the time of the airworthiness inspection?

Skylor
 
Maxrate said:
I’ll be straight up first. I’m a long time RV 7 builder and bought a biplane to learn aerobatics so that I could flight test, certify and fly acro in my -7, and eventually compete in it. I have an opportunity to get a plane that has a current airworthiness certificate but the owner has lost the logbooks. My question is would registering the plane to the new owner and a simple condition inspection with any required repairs make the plane legal to fly? What would the legal ramifications of the lost logbooks be to the new owner getting it back in the air?

Just to recap. It has an airworthiness certificate, lost logbooks and an out of date registration to the current owner. Thx all…..
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Here is the problem. If the registration expires, so does the N number. it’s not simple now to re register the plane. I believe the airworthiness certificate goes bye bye too. Also with no logbook entry, the plane is no longer out of phase 1.
I believe you would need to start all over beginning with getting an N number, registering the plane, and having a DAR issue a new airworthiness certificate. I went through this with an eclipse jet that was down for 14 months after the bankruptcy, and the owner forgot to renew and the registration expired.
you might want to contact the FAA on this one. It could be more complicated than you think.
 
That's the Pitts for sale in Santa Rosa. I know someone who looked at it a few years ago. I heard from him the plane needs new fabric and an engine overhaul. It is not really a matter of getting some paperwork to make the plane "airworthy", because even with the right paperwork it should not be flown. I have no idea if the logs were lost or just thrown away. I am in your boat. I bought a Pitts s1-c to learn aerobatics and recently upgraded that to a Pitts s2-c. Still slowly progressing on my RV-7. After I finish the RV-7 I plan on keeping the pitts, which wasn't my original plan.
 
skylor said:
Paul,

I assume your last sentence is referring to the "original" condition inspection done by the builder at the time of the airworthiness inspection?

Skylor
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Well that’s a good question Skylor -technically, the “Aircraft Records” shouLtd start with a CI entry and be followed by the Inspector’s statement that the aircraft qualifies for an AWC. I don't know if that initial CI entry is absolutely required for the future or not…just as if an airplane sits fallow for a couple of years, you just need a current CI to be legal. One of the more experienced DAR’s will have to weigh in…but this airplane sounds like it could be a mess….
 
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Except as noted above, maintenance records are not required. But you should get a good discount if the records are missing (and expect to give one when/if you sell).
 
Ironflight said:
Well that’s a good question Skylor -technically, the “Aircraft Records” shoudl start with a CI entry and be followed by teh Inspector’s statement that the aircraft qualifies for an AWC. I dont; know if that initial CI entry is absolutely required for the future or not…just as if an airplane sits fallow for a couple of years, you just need a current CI to be legal. One of the more experienced DAR’s will have to weigh in…but this airplane sounds like it could be a mess….
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My opinion is that the initial inspection entry is not necessary for the future history of the airplane. It’s purpose was to certify it’s in a condition for safe operation for the first 12 months of its life, because the moment the air worthiness certificate is presented it has the requirement that a condition inspection must have been completed within the previous 12 calendar months.
As a secondary detail, it is a means for the builder to certify that the airplane construction is completed and it is in a condition for safe operation. This is necessary for it to receive the airworthiness certificate. But I believe once the certificate is issued that entry is no longer relevant after 12 months have passed.
I do agree that the phase 1 flight testing entry not being available is a problem.
 
I have an RV4 with the same issue, logs books were submitted and an A&P doing work, and he went blank in the middle of the plane being transferred to the son of the deceased owner. I have everything but the log book, and as mentioned the phase 1 sign off is in the missing logbook. The local DAR suggested a reinspection and a 5 hour phase 1 at the airplanes new location. If somebody has a better suggestion I would be all ears.
 
You should request a copy of the aircraft records from the FAA. I did this with a Pietenpol several years ago. The FAA wouldn’t register the aircraft, until after I sent them the aircraft records from their own archive. You will have to create your own logs. Be factual as possible, and move forward. Remember, it Is an airplane, so don’t let them talk you out of it
 

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If the owner is still around, then he should presumably have his own pilot logbooks. I don't know if this is legal,, but it might be...could he use his own flight logs which should document all of the Phase I flight test to simply re-create in a new entry that the Phase I was completed, and sign off again?
 
I don't have an exact number but a long period of time passes between expiration of a registration and purging the N number. If the N number is not a short number or special number it might be available for years, even decades.
My current N number is from an airplane that was last flown in 1954. I reserved the number in the late 90's.
Single or two digit numbers, Short N Numbers will grab it as soon as it becomes available. If you have a big pile of money you can buy it from them
 
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