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ADF really needed?

H

Highflight

Well Known Member
Allow me to kick off the IFR forum by asking sort of a general question of you who already have your IFR ticket.

I'm building my 7-A with an IFR panel for the purpose of taking instruction in my own aircraft to get my Instrument rating (thus saving some bucks on rental and putting the money into my own aircraft instead).

What I have in mind as the basis of the panel is an enroute/approach certified GPS com (Garmin 300XL TSO) on top of an SL-30, and both will be able to drive the G106 CDI head, either GPS or ILS/GS.

That seems to be a reasonably capable and more than legal IFR combination to me (accompanied with the other basic IFR requirements), but there are still a lot of NDB approaches out there and I'm wondering if there is a compelling reason why I would need to plan on an ADF since NDB approaches seem to be a basic part of IFR training.

Thoughts? "Legality" issues?

Vern
RV7-A
 
Me, I am doing similar. Building the -7 to get my Instrument ticket in.

Anyways, I plan on a GNS 430 with the 340 Mode S to give me proximity information. I also am installing a Nav/Comm and a CDI head, but there will be another CDI head for the GPS as well.

No ADF for me. I am not much of a sports fan.

:) CJ
 
We can talk specifics, which in my case means that I'm only going to need the one CDI because I'll have the HSI on my GRT EFIS, but I was more wanting to keep it general with regard to how many different types of approaches we should plan our panels for.

So back to the ADF...
The reason I brought it up is because it appears to me that we have to demonstrate proficiency in at least 3 different types of approaches (unless I read wrong).
I've got (certified) GPS covered and ILS covered, and it just seemed to me that an NDB approach capability would be the logical next one because NDB's are used so commonly at lot's of airports as part of an ILS approach (or NDB only for non-precision approaches).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing for installing what some might argue will soon be an obsolete system. I just don't want to get caught short in my panel and have to use another aircraft for even part of my IFR training nor for having to pass the occasional IFR proficiency test.
I haven't done the research yet, but perhaps one could enter the coordinates of an NDB into a certified GPS radio and then do a "virtual" NDB approach? But then would that pass as an NDB approach?

The more I learns, the ignoranter I gets.

Vern
RV7-A
 
Adf

I think if you look you will find that virtually all NDB IAP's have a corresponding GPS IAP also these days. And if you have an IFR GPS, the ADF would be redundant.

I did two NDB approaches for my checkride, one without gyros, in spite of having ILS/LOC/GS capabilities. Passsed, but have NEVER shot an NDB approach in real life, and I suspect that I might placard the ADF INOP if I had to do it again!

Other than listening to the radio, it's a ton of weight for no good reason.
 
ADF equipment is not required for IFR certification. If it is installed in the airplane, you will be expected to demonstrate its use for the checkride.

Nearly all NDB approaches now have GPS overlays, so I don't see the need for an ADF receiver (unless maybe you wanted to shoot an approach but the GPS database was expired).

Although I was trained in the days when NDB approaches were common, I firmly believe that if someone approached the FAA today with the idea of ADF as sole-source navigation in the approach environment they would be laughed at.

Our current "traveling airplane" is a Cirrus SR22. It is certified for IFR, with dual Garmin 430s and multiple other goodies. The factory made a conscious decision to not provide (or even offer as an option) ADF or DME for safety reasons (The GPS/VOR/ILS is easier=safer).

James Freeman
 
ADF or NOT!

An ADF would be a Colossal Waste of Money (IMHO)! Take Captain John's advice and spend the money on the Garmin GTX 330 Transponder and get TIS (Traffic Information Service). To Quote Garmin "Now, from the comfort of your aircraft, you can receive FAA Traffic Information Services (TIS), including location, direction, altitude, and climb/descent information of nearby aircraft on your GNS 530 or GNS 430."
That would be worth the money EVERY flight. The "maybe someday I MAY need it" thinking has cost me a lot of $$ in the past. As soon as I feel myself thinking that thought I lean a long way toward rejecting the idea. With that said I still always carry a hand held GPS (Garmin 196) in the event things really get tough in the clouds. Still, I will probably go an entire life without any real need for the hand held. I find the most difficult thing about IFR flying is staying current after you have the ticket. :( George
 
Wow, talk about getting a question answered...

I'm already aware that a DME can be replaced with a GPS; I just wasn't sure where the ADF fit in in the big picture (nowadays).
I guess my overbudget plans for my panel don't have to go any further over budget since it seems like I'll be good with what I've got planned.

Thanks, gentlemen.

Vern
RV7-A
 
Yes, we were using an ADF the other day as we navigated toward Hope, B.C. We had a GNS430 as well as a Garmin 295 working. As my student approached the beacon and the needle began swinging, I said to him, "Look on the 430, there is the beacon right there. You can just fly right over it without even looking at the ADF needle." He looked surprised and remarked that maybe the ADF was a bit passe in todays world of avionics. I agreed. I won't be installing one in our RV-8.

Cheers, Pete
 
I know your question was more about getting your instrument ticket, but here's some more food for thought: Considering the required accuracy of an NDB and ADF (not very good), and their reliability (not very good, either), I might reconsider if I HAVE to go to a certain airport if it is only serviced by an NDB. There is more than likely a VOR (or GPS nowadays) approach to a very nearby airport. I know at least for myself, I have more proficiency shooting VOR/LOC/GPS approaches, so I would likely find a different destination if my only option was an NDB, especially if higher terrain is within 100 miles. $.02.
 
ADF, check rides and the swing

Yes, good-bye and good ridden's.

Flying a NDB at night and being on the procedure turn outbound, watching the needle swing around like a crazed stopwatch, IMC, with terrain, is not fun. Once established on the 45 intercept, Dead Reckoning, it would start to come in, but still never liked it. I flew several planes and all the ADF's did the same thing on this approach. It was just the way it was. GPS rules. :p

If you need a NDB approach for a rating, can't that be done in a simulator or training device? I would not set a RV up just to take a Inst. check ride. I would rent a C-1-7-2 or something. You could train in your RV except the NDB (assuming it has all the other equip). Practice NDB's in a "training device", simulator or rental bird. As far as the ride itself, that is up to the examiner and PTS. I don't have a current inst PTS handy, but if it is required, and the examiner is cool with it, you could fly 90% in your RV and just the NDB in approved Sim or another plane (rental).

"91.205 (d)(2)Two-way radio communications system and navigational equipment appropriate to the ground facilities to be used."

Once you have your ticket, to heck with the NDB, unless your home-field is served by a single NDB (only) approach. If that is the case, get a new home field. :rolleyes:

Although I did pride myself on flying the NDB approach and teaching them, back in the day, I won?t miss them. The B757 has ADF/VOR/RMI heads and you fly them on occasion in the simulator, you (almost) never do them. Third world countries Req you monitor the NDB, but the FMC is what you really are using and looking at. Of course x-checking the raw data is always good if you got it. NDB raw data is just a little too RAW. Again good-bye ADF. Welcome 21st century.

"The next generation Airliners will only require:
One Pilot and One Dog.
The pilot is there to feed the Dog.
The Dog is there to bite the Pilot, in case he tries
to touch anything." :D

Cheers G RV-4, RV-7 (project)
 
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Ndb

An NDB will never be required for an IFR Check Ride. You have to fly three approaches. Two non-precision and one precision. The non-precision approaches will be determined entirely by the radios you have. If you don't have an ADF the examiner cannot ask for an NDB approach. You will NEVER have to shoot an NDB in your life. GPS is the future and NDB is an interesting part of the past.
 
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