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IFR panel - need versus nice to have

Bsquared

Bsquared

Well Known Member
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Question for IFR pilots….I am a VFR pilot and I built a RV-14A with a well equipped VFR Dynon panel (Dual PFDs, dual GPS (one WAAS compliant) and Dynon autopilot). I also included a harness for pitot heat but did not install a heated unit. In light of the newly announced Dynon GPS Navigator it got me thinking about down the road when I sell this airplane it may increase the value to have a basic IFR panel. Will adding the new Dynon Navigator be enough for basis (and safe) IFR or do I need to also include an old fashion Nav unit and antenna, back-up ADAHR, heated pitot and whatever else I am forgetting.
 
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Bsquared said:
Question for IFR pilots….I am a VFR pilot and I built a RV-14A with a well equipped VFR Dynon panel (Dual PFDs, dual GPS (one WAAS compliant) and Dynon autopilot). I also included a harness for pitot heat but did not install a heated unit. In light of the newly announced Dynon GPS Navigator it got me thinking about down the road when I sell this airplane it may increase the value to have a basic IFR panel. Will adding the new Dynon Navigator be enough for basis (and safe) IFR or do I need to also include an old fashion Nav unit and antenna, back-up ADAHR, heated pitot and whatever else I am forgetting.
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The Dynon will be enough but some will inevitably want more or a different brand.
 
You’ll need the heated pitot probe for legal
flight into known IMC. Personally I would like a secondary ground-based nav source, but I also wouldn’t consider that a deal breaker. I’m not convinced the secondary ADHARS provides as much redundancy as one might think (in my system its plumbed to the same P-S source as the primary, which is typical, but this reduces redundancy). I would want a standby attitude indicator (G5, GRT mini) as a backup in case the Dynon system goes down.
 
I’m currently looking to outfit my RV-6 for IFR. It’s actually IFR ready as far as the instrumentation is concerned however the backup to a failed attitude indicator is falling back to turn coordinator, altimeter and airspeed.

That’s how I learned to fly IFR back in the 80’s for partial panel but I can’t see any reason not to have a battery backed backup attitude indicator.

My 2 cents.
 
F18Sailor said:
You’ll need the heated pitot probe for legal
flight into known IMC. Personally I would like a secondary ground-based nav source, but I also wouldn’t consider that a deal breaker. I’m not convinced the secondary ADHARS provides as much redundancy as one might think (in my system its plumbed to the same P-S source as the primary, which is typical, but this reduces redundancy). I would want a standby attitude indicator (G5, GRT mini) as a backup in case the Dynon system goes down.
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Agree on all. Holding legality to one side (I love doing that), as a practical matter, a G5, GRT Mini, etc. *with a backup battery*, plus an iPad running ForeFlight etc. with a GPS source, is all you need to fly an LNAV approach safely even if the entire freaking panel urps and you’re sitting in loud darkness. So long as your air data isn’t iced out of existence. And even then you’d have groundspeed and GPS altitude and terrain warnings, so you’re still better than even money.

Think what Doolittle would have given for a G5, an iPad with ForeFlight, and a constellation of GPS satellites. 🤣

Take a handheld though. You still have to turn on the runway lights.
 
F18Sailor said:
You’ll need the heated pitot probe for legal
flight into known IMC. Personally I would like a secondary ground-based nav source, but I also wouldn’t consider that a deal breaker. I’m not convinced the secondary ADHARS provides as much redundancy as one might think (in my system its plumbed to the same P-S source as the primary, which is typical, but this reduces redundancy). I would want a standby attitude indicator (G5, GRT mini) as a backup in case the Dynon system goes down.
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91.205 does not require a heated pitot tube. the section that requies heated pitot is for larger planes, part 135, etc.
 
grt mini and gps without an Ifr navigator is not legal. not sure how you would file ifr and fly an approach without the semi-expensive navigator. please explain if i am here. cheers.
 
cgeyman said:
grt mini and gps without an Ifr navigator is not legal. not sure how you would file ifr and fly an approach without the semi-expensive navigator. please explain if i am here. cheers.
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The FARs say ‘appropriate navigation’. I know it’s passé but it’s still legal to go ifr from A to B with no gps, e.g., a nav receiver, if the destination has an approach that can be shot with just a nav.

Heated pitot is also not required. Good idea, but not required by the FARs.

But everyone missed the point. The OP is not instrument rated, and asked if installing an approved gps would increase his re-sell value, that’s all. And IMHO the answer is yes, the re-sale vale will go up - but probably less than the cost of the navigator. Let the next guy spend the money, get what he wants. Or did I mis-read the op?
 
cgeyman said:
grt mini and gps without an Ifr navigator is not legal. not sure how you would file ifr and fly an approach without the semi-expensive navigator. please explain if i am here. cheers.
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We weren't suggesting the GRT Mini/G5 as a legal stand-alone IFR solution. It was strongly suggested as an inexpensive attitude backup to the OP's Dynon system.
 
You built a VFR 14A. Unless you want to get your IFR ticket, I would leave your plane as is. Avionics evolve over time. I don’t know how soon you plan on selling it, but adding expensive equipment that you won’t use is wasted time and money. Avionics don’t age well and the next buyer might want the latest and greatest navigator. The 14 is an expensive plane. Adding IFR will cost north of 20K and a lot of time. Let the new buyer add whatever he wants. Just my two cents worth.
 
Rrhsch said:
You built a VFR 14A. Unless you want to get your IFR ticket, I would leave your plane as is. Avionics evolve over time. I don’t know how soon you plan on selling it, but adding expensive equipment that you won’t use is wasted time and money. Avionics don’t age well and the next buyer might want the latest and greatest navigator. The 14 is an expensive plane. Adding IFR will cost north of 20K and a lot of time. Let the new buyer add whatever he wants. Just my two cents worth.
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The real question is what will the IFR navigation box from Dynon cost? I'm guessing $2995.00, plus a GPS antenna and install kit, so another $750, but that is just a guess. I'd offer to install it for a future buyer if you decide to sell.
 
Rrhsch said:
You built a VFR 14A. Unless you want to get your IFR ticket, I would leave your plane as is. Avionics evolve over time. I don’t know how soon you plan on selling it, but adding expensive equipment that you won’t use is wasted time and money. Avionics don’t age well and the next buyer might want the latest and greatest navigator. The 14 is an expensive plane. Adding IFR will cost north of 20K and a lot of time. Let the new buyer add whatever he wants. Just my two cents worth.
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+1 for waiting. I bought a project day VFR only RV7, 2.5 years ago.

I spent my time fixing various problems, stripping and repainting, adding lighting, and upgrading to an all Garmin IFR setup based around the G3X. Now Garmin is coming out with the AXIS with the IFR GPS, VHF NAV/COMM all built in.

I have already spent my money, for the equipment, the wiring harness, and installation. I’m not switching to have the latest greatest. The point is stuff like this evolves into better, lighter, more reliable.

IMG_8536.jpeg
 
rockyfatcat said:
+1 for waiting. I bought a project day VFR only RV7, 2.5 years ago.

I spent my time fixing various problems, stripping and repainting, adding lighting, and upgrading to an all Garmin IFR setup based around the G3X. Now Garmin is coming out with the AXIS with the IFR GPS, VHF NAV/COMM all built in.

I have already spent my money, for the equipment, the wiring harness, and installation. I’m not switching to have the latest greatest. The point is stuff like this evolves into better, lighter, more reliable.

View attachment 123105
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That looks very similar to the panel I am building. I bought a VFR RV7A five years ago and am now going Axis, IFR. Same stuff as you I think: Single Screen PFD, GNX375, 507, 205X, G5, and room for my iPad/Foreflight on the right side. I am interested in thoughts about where to put the G5. I see most are to the far left, but that would work well for the copilot if needed. What are your thoughts about putting it in the center? Are you planing to use it for more than a backup? Such as a dedicated HSI?
 
tom paul said:
That looks very similar to the panel I am building. I bought a VFR RV7A five years ago and am now going Axis, IFR. Same stuff as you I think: Single Screen PFD, GNX375, 507, 205X, G5, and room for my iPad/Foreflight on the right side. I am interested in thoughts about where to put the G5. I see most are to the far left, but that would work well for the copilot if needed. What are your thoughts about putting it in the center? Are you planing to use it for more than a backup? Such as a dedicated HSI?
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I went for center of aircraft G5 for a couple reasons. First 90+% of my flying is solo, so why spend a couple thousand dollars to give an empty seat a full display?
2nd if I experience a full panel failure I have the same access to see my backup G5 as a passenger would.
3rd if I have a passenger or a CFI in the right seat they can see enough instruments to fly the aircraft without putting their head in my lap.
 
rockyfatcat said:
I went for center of aircraft G5 for a couple reasons. First 90+% of my flying is solo, so why spend a couple thousand dollars to give an empty seat a full display?
2nd if I experience a full panel failure I have the same access to see my backup G5 as a passenger would.
3rd if I have a passenger or a CFI in the right seat they can see enough instruments to fly the aircraft without putting their head in my lap.
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Agree. My G5 is mounted in the center of my panel and it's the perfect spot. Easy to see and use from either seat. Another advantage of flying a small aircraft!
 
I have two Skyview displays and two ADHRS units. Each Skyview unit has a backup battery attached. With an alternator out I can load shed non-important stuff and still operate on the 2 main airplane's batteries, and then the Dynon backup batteries beyond the plane's fuel duration.

I do, however, keep some area of basic VFR weather within the airplane's fuel range at all times in case of total GPS failure.

In the most extremely remote case of dual independent failure of both ADHRS units, I can whip out the trusty (but not approved) iPhone attitude app to keep wings level as I get to that area of VFR weather.

VHF nav radio? What's that? :)
 
I flew my RV-4 IFR for 10 yrs in the North West, in some garbage weather (no autopilot). Now my RV-7 I also fly IFR. (glass, dual axis)

You are rated "Airplane Instrument Pilot", stay current with 6HITS or an IPC, yes. If you don't know what that is you are not current. If not Inst rated and have no plans than the only reason for spending $12k to $17k is for resale. That is a lot of money to spend for "resale". You enjoy Instrument flying and want to maintain your skills and plane to IFR standards, get at least RNAV WAAS GPS. You will need back up EFIS and electrical power. So more weight and money and time.

Do you travel a lot and file IFR? If not you are not really not going to need or use the capability, unless you love practicing instrument approaches (which I do). I get WX and say oh good IFR today, off to the airport to shoot approaches. I like the flexibility when traveling, I can depart with low morning clouds (personal min above lowest landing min). Enroute WX deteriorating, over undercast, being able to do a let down IMC, to an approach. With that said if I absolutely positively have to be there tomorrow or next, I go airlines. GA flying you have to accept delays. So IFR in little plane has limits, not the least of which is ICE, extensive convective activity severe turbulence SIGMET, WX below mins. I like being in the system even in VFR conditions.

I did IFR on the cheap ($9000 over deluxe VFR panel). I added one GPS175 to my existing Glass GRT Horizon 10.1, and back up EFIS Garmin G5, used from Wentworth, all the peripheral boxes saving $1000-$1500). I could have saved $9000 staying VFR. Glad I put it in. Retro fit would be a pain. With IFR GPS maintained data updates cost money. Also I much more like to go cross country in VFR conditions (even if on IFR flight plan). I like to sight see. So your panel decision.

Check out YouTube Canard Boulevard. His name is Scott. He takes IFR flights in his Cozy and records them. You can see how his IFR capabilities and his skill as a pilot opens up a lot of options. I have my IFR students watch his videos, because his ATC Com, weather analysis, risk management and real world IFR flying in a small plane.
 
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