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Fast, On-Speed, Slow: A Common Language for Aircraft Control

I flew with a single-position AOA system for over 50 years - Cessnas have an audible stall warning sensor. You can buy and install a similar device from Van's. It worked, was reliable and helpful. It said quite clearly, "Okay, far enough now, be wary." And then I flew OnSpeed's tone-based AOA system once, in an RV-10. The owner gave emergency a short description and with the volume adjusted properly for me, I found it easy house and gave me rather more information than the Cessna single-point system. I prefer the OnSpeed system, which was actually useful.

For people complaining about always needing to listen to the tune, no, just turn the volume down in cruise. Add adjusting the volume to the pre-take-off and pre-landing checklists.

It does require an AOA pickup, though, which might not be easy for your specific airplane. It would now be very difficult to retrofit to my RV-3B project for several reasons (that plane has the stall warning vane) and the SLSA I have on deposit would need to be put into ELSA status and then some careful designing done for it. But worth it.

On the basis of a single flight, I encourage any builder to install that AOA pressure pickup during construction.

Dave
 
I think this is a disingenuous response.
They have a chart with five studies that show different things.
The conclusion clearly states the following: "In general, the findings were not conclusive."
This is what I regard as data rather than information.
There is not a single randomized control trial that shows parachutes save lives either. The vast majority of pilots involved in a loss of control stall-spin are not around to provide conclusive evidence as to weather AOA may have changed the outcome. It seems very reasonable to assume that it may have in some cases. I use it and practice with it not because I fly near any limits, but because by being comfortable with it, I hope that should I ever find myself in a dangerous situation I will have the muscle memory to react appropriately before things get worse.

Ive been around to know that “just not making a mistake” is not the best plan. I plan for when I make a mistake, not if.

As to being overly complicated, “fast, on-speed, and slow” seems much simpler than calculating the appropriate air speed based on my weight, bank angle, and g-loading.
 
I've been flying with the Tones on for about a year now. I still don't like them and find them distracting. When its constantly making a tone - its easy to tune out. Like the boy crying wolf analogy. I like the tones for getting near the edge of a bad place to be like too slow (stall) or too fast (Vne). But I don't like the constant tone for "on speed". I absolutely tune it out.
"Having said that - I absolute HATE HATE HATE the colored bars and green donuts on most or all GA AOA gauges. I find it busy and totally unusable."

Maybe I'm missing something, but you don't like the tones, and you HATE HATE HATE the colored bars for AOA.

So how do you want to be informed you are about to stall the airframe?

For me audible works !!!!!!!! (If it's constantly making a tone suggest you review AOA calibration procedures, you don't have to have a tone for "on speed", I don't)
 
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“Its a single point failure if you have only one AoA”….. well of course it is. But you also only have a single engine, a single elevator pushrod, a single Airspeed Indicator, single Pitot tube….. so you can argue just to argue, or recognize that flying is all about keeping your head up and cross-checking. {Or do like I do - I have at least two AoA systems in each of our airplanes (and in some places, three….), but that’s just because I test them - not because I feel the need for multiple systems.} AoA is a tool - like any other - not a crutch.

“Oh, but big airplanes have vane sensors.” Yes, they absolutely do. They also have jet engines, so the prop slipstream is not a factor. Yes, you can put a vane sensor out near the wingtip of your RV - but they are delicate and I bet it won’t last. I’ve used several GA systems with the vane transducer, and have found that inexpensive ones tend to stick or bind. The pressure sensor AoA (either in teh pitot or “top/bottom? Holes) has been proven to keep you out of the weeds pretty reliably (there are always exceptions of course), and unless you are trying to do a test program where AoA needs to be measured to sub-degree accuracy, they are good for pilot use.

Tom paul - I really liek the quality and pasion behind the Alpha Systems unit! The one I have is probably eight years old, and it doesn’t have “progressive” tones - just a tone when you are getting flap sped, and a tone near the stall. I have talked with them about a progressive (and they were receptive) , but don’t know if they implemented it (yet) - will be interested in how it works for you. But you’ll have progressive tones in the Garmin, so I bet you’ll use that more than the Alpha systems display.
In the Navy, it was standard practice to crosscheck the functioning of the AOA gauge and indexer when entering your first downwind of the flight. Then, once the AOA has been checked for normal functioning the AOA was your primary speed sensor and the airspeed was secondary.
AOA was so great that once a pilot was versed in its usage if it wasn't working on an approach to the carrier it was reported to the LSO's inop AOA. That was infrequent but very infrequently the AOA did fail just like all aircraft systems.
As a suggestion, in addition to a tone I intend to have a stick shaker with a small eccentric motor strapped to my stick. Some AOA systems have a pin that goes to ground when approaching unsafe AOA. I plan on completing a ground activated relay to power the eccentic motor as a stall warning. I taught in the Navy and found tactile stimulation is answered by overwhelmed pilots who have tuned out aural warnings. Many of my flight students exhibited tuning out sounds when overloaded. I believe a small stick shaker would really get most peoples' attention.
 
During routine GA operations in the airport environment, say for flying a standard pattern or an instrument approach, under what conditions does one have a stall or loss of aircraft control when flying per the POH or standard patterns of flight that an AOA adds anything to?

I say it is just a tool, a useful one if one wants to fly at the aerodynamic edge, but of limited additional benefit above the normal tools one escapes with from PPL training (maybe even student solo level) .
Clearly you should do more research before you start saying aoa has no value outside the edge of the envelope. Quick test: what is your airplanes stall speed? Next, without research or a calculator, what is your airplanes stall speed in a 30* bank? What about a 45* bank? What if you have to pull a bit hard on the stick due to a sink near the fence and pull 1.3 Gs? What is your new stall speed? What if you accidentally pull 1.4 in a 30* bank? If you think aoa is a waste, i sure hope yoy have this memorized. This is one of the reasons why the base turn causes so many problems.
 
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In the Navy, it was standard practice to crosscheck the functioning of the AOA gauge and indexer when entering your first downwind of the flight. Then, once the AOA has been checked for normal functioning the AOA was your primary speed sensor and the airspeed was secondary.
AOA was so great that once a pilot was versed in its usage if it wasn't working on an approach to the carrier it was reported to the LSO's inop AOA. That was infrequent but very infrequently the AOA did fail just like all aircraft systems.
As a suggestion, in addition to a tone I intend to have a stick shaker with a small eccentric motor strapped to my stick. Some AOA systems have a pin that goes to ground when approaching unsafe AOA. I plan on completing a ground activated relay to power the eccentic motor as a stall warning. I taught in the Navy and found tactile stimulation is answered by overwhelmed pilots who have tuned out aural warnings. Many of my flight students exhibited tuning out sounds when overloaded. I believe a small stick shaker would really get most peoples' attention.
I’ve actually been testign a stick-shaker grip for AoA, and the results are …. Itneresting so far. I agree that in a jet, the stick shaler gets your attention, In a vibrating prop plane…its a little differnt. It is also (so far) good as a discrete “warning” (which is how I think you’re planning on using it), but I am not yet comfortable saying that it can give you gradients to tell you where you are on the AoA curve.

Stay tuned!
 
I think this is a disingenuous response.
They have a chart with five studies that show different things.
The conclusion clearly states the following: "In general, the findings were not conclusive."
This is what I regard as data rather than information.
That was also written in 2019. LOTS has changed in GA in the last 7 years.
 
"Having said that - I absolute HATE HATE HATE the colored bars and green donuts on most or all GA AOA gauges. I find it busy and totally unusable."

Maybe I'm missing something, but you don't like the tones, and you HATE HATE HATE the colored bars for AOA.

So how do you want to be informed you are about to stall the airframe?

For me audible works !!!!!!!! (If it's constantly making a tone suggest you review AOA calibration procedures, you don't have to have a tone for "on speed", I don't)
Did you not read the rest of the post you quoted?? https://vansairforce.net/threads/fa...age-for-aircraft-control.244802/#post-1946374

lol. It explains my perfect system pretty well, I thought. Hint, combo of digital # display and tones only for when approaching a stall or other "about to get yourself into trouble limit".
 
These discussions seem to be absolutely ignoring the potential unintended consequences.

I can think of several things that could have impact:
1. Improper installation, which seems to run rampant in experimental aviation (recent sure fly magneto/hot start example).
2. Improper calibration. This seems to have several data points that get entered into the system, each of which can introduce error and might be subjective anyway.
3. Improper or ignored maintenance.
4. If GA pilots push the flying because AOA says they can, might there not be more accidents as a result?

Examples. Over the course of my working career numerous new drugs were brought fully onto the market, they had passed every FDA drug study and had full approval. Some of these were later withdrawn from the market due to side effects. One of the ones I best remember is Propulsid, which did something funny to the electrical conductivity of the heart (it prolonged the QT interval) and led to death. There have been at least 10 drugs removed from the market due this exact same problem.

Colonoscopies...brought forth to save society from the scourge of colorectal cancer. Norton Hadler in his book worried sick argues that these screenings provide limited marginal benefits and harm four people for every live they save. I worked somewhere where an elderly woman died as a consequence of just such an exam.

Safe non toxic non flammable CFCs that worked holes in the atmosphere.

In a car, hasn't your GPS ever taken you down a dirt path or similar that ends nowhere?

Want more? Think back over aviation history and if you can't think of anything ask your AI for a "list of negative unintended consequences for aviation".
 

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Clearly you should do more research before you start saying aoa has no value outside the edge of the envelope. Quick test: what is your airplanes stall speed? Next, without research or a calculator, what is your airplanes stall speed in a 30* bank? What about a 45* bank? What if you have to pull a bit hard on the stick due to a sink near the fence and pull 1.3 Gs? What is your new stall speed? What if you accidentally pull 1.4 in a 30* bank? If you think aoa is a waste, i sure hope yoy have this memorized. This is one of the reasons why the base turn causes so many problems.
I did not say that.
 
These discussions seem to be absolutely ignoring the potential unintended consequences.

I can think of several things that could have impact:
1. Improper installation, which seems to run rampant in experimental aviation (recent sure fly magneto/hot start example).
2. Improper calibration. This seems to have several data points that get entered into the system, each of which can introduce error and might be subjective anyway.
3. Improper or ignored maintenance.
4. If GA pilots push the flying because AOA says they can, might there not be more accidents as a result?

Examples. Over the course of my working career numerous new drugs were brought fully onto the market, they had passed every FDA drug study and had full approval. Some of these were later withdrawn from the market due to side effects. One of the ones I best remember is Propulsid, which did something funny to the electrical conductivity of the heart (it prolonged the QT interval) and led to death. There have been at least 10 drugs removed from the market due this exact same problem.

Colonoscopies...brought forth to save society from the scourge of colorectal cancer. Norton Hadler in his book worried sick argues that these screenings provide limited marginal benefits and harm four people for every live they save. I worked somewhere where an elderly woman died as a consequence of just such an exam.

Safe non toxic non flammable CFCs that worked holes in the atmosphere.

In a car, hasn't your GPS ever taken you down a dirt path or similar that ends nowhere?

Want more? Think back over aviation history and if you can't think of anything ask your AI for a "list of negative unintended consequences for aviation".
But, you’re relying on airspeed indication that had to be installed, calibrated, and maintained correctly?. AOA is king. Critical AOA is when an airplane stalls, and it doesn’t give a **** what the airspeed indicator says at that moment. We can wag a stall speed and use the airspeed, sure. But wouldn’t it be nice to have something that actually measured the stall point, accurately? I don’t understand why you’re fighting this. AOA would save lives and airplanes. It doesn’t matter that you don’t push the limits of stall during “normal” ops, AOA still has great value above and beyond the ol airspeed indicator.
 
But, you’re relying on airspeed indication that had to be installed, calibrated, and maintained correctly?. AOA is king. Critical AOA is when an airplane stalls, and it doesn’t give a **** what the airspeed indicator says at that moment. We can wag a stall speed and use the airspeed, sure. But wouldn’t it be nice to have something that actually measured the stall point, accurately? I don’t understand why you’re fighting this. AOA would save lives and airplanes. It doesn’t matter that you don’t push the limits of stall during “normal” ops, AOA still has great value above and beyond the ol airspeed indicator.
Why do you say I am fighting this?

I have AOA in my plane.
I think it is a good thing, helpful, a tool.

The OP brought forth a thesis. A thesis (in science at least) is something that can be proven or disproven with facts. When I asked for facts, ie studies, or even a single example of where it was known AOA would have made a difference, none were provided. For my airplane flying, I want a rigorous understanding of things and have sought out available training from reputable sources: the best Prebuy , the best mechanic, the best gadgets, the best oil analysis, the best qualified instructor, the best books. I want the same for gadgets utilized in my plane. Don’t you?

Why is there such a groupthink attitude with this here?
Why is there such resistance to the studies I have brought forth? I expected better from long time people when I brought this forward. There was ZERO acknowledgement of the meta analysis of the studies performed. I base my thesis judgement upon this data, which has not been countered.



Why is there no discussion of potential unintended consequences? Are these not real? Not realistic? Weren’t stick shakers brought forth with unintended consequences? Did anyone even look for the amount of these kinds of things in aviation? I base my thesis judgement upon the risks of negative consequences that have not been addressed in the thesis discussion or here. Nobody argued against the negative consequences.

If this is truly an important aspect of aviation to have adapted, I’ve asked about/suggested it be part of some aviation ASTM group. Isn’t this how things have been changed in aviation before, you know things like Mosaic? Has there been a better suggestion on how to have this be made standard or mandated? Is there some other way for this to be done? I judge this to be a major weakness in the strategy to bring this thesis to life.

I’ve asked about some data driven analysis, basically some cost benefit type thing done, similar to how the Faa handles service bulletins/instructions. If this analysis were available and compelling, wouldn’t it be wildly positive for the thesis? I judge the weakness of the thesis and the discussions here by this not being specifically addressed.
 
or even a single example of where it was known AOA would have made a difference, none were provided.
I agree that data is king, but not all data is easy to get.

I can give you two examples that I personally experienced. It's not a scientific study, but what can be called an anecdotal observation. Here's one, the other was similar - distraction at critical time in the pattern:

Flying at the end of downwind, out of nowhere, I got a FLARM alert that there's a glider in the same 3d space as me. We have lots of gliders at our airport. Nothing on the radio. Now, my eyes are outside - not looking at airspeed, AOA, or anything else. I decide (stupidly) to do a right 360 which will take me out of the pattern, and away from where the gliders normally have their pattern. I'm flying a stupidly tight 360 that I started at 80 kts, which is my speed in the pattern until getting on short final. Didn't add power or enough power. I'm banked tight - maybe 60 degrees or more. AoA starts telling me "angle! angle! push!" - which I did out of instinct, and then I looked at my airspeed, which was very low - so low I couldn't believe I was still flying. Without the AoA warning, or some other audible alert or stick shaker, I'd have been a smoking hole, I'm pretty sure.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I am certainly happy I chose an EFIS with AoA, that I installed it, and calibrated it. I also see/hear that it's working on every takeoff and landing. I won't fall out of the sky if an insect plugs the AoA probe hole, but I'll clean it out before the next flight.
 
I’ve actually been testign a stick-shaker grip for AoA, and the results are …. Itneresting so far. I agree that in a jet, the stick shaler gets your attention, In a vibrating prop plane…its a little differnt. It is also (so far) good as a discrete “warning” (which is how I think you’re planning on using it), but I am not yet comfortable saying that it can give you gradients to tell you where you are on the AoA curve.

Stay tuned!
My use of AOA to drive a stick shaker is more akin to the stall vane on certified light planes. It is the final warning as stall is approached.
 
Air France 447.

To the point the BEA (French accident investigators) recommended fitting it in their conclusions. Airbus updated their displays to show a version of AoA in an unreliable airspeed situation.

Im certainly fitting AoA to my aircraft as per my previous posts. I don't need data to tell me its safer and therefore better, much like I don't need data to tell me jumping off a tall building will hurt.

Some things are just obvious.
 
Why do you say I am fighting this?

I have AOA in my plane.
I think it is a good thing, helpful, a tool.

The OP brought forth a thesis. A thesis (in science at least) is something that can be proven or disproven with facts. When I asked for facts, ie studies, or even a single example of where it was known AOA would have made a difference, none were provided. For my airplane flying, I want a rigorous understanding of things and have sought out available training from reputable sources: the best Prebuy , the best mechanic, the best gadgets, the best oil analysis, the best qualified instructor, the best books. I want the same for gadgets utilized in my plane. Don’t you?

Why is there such a groupthink attitude with this here?
Why is there such resistance to the studies I have brought forth? I expected better from long time people when I brought this forward. There was ZERO acknowledgement of the meta analysis of the studies performed. I base my thesis judgement upon this data, which has not been countered.



Why is there no discussion of potential unintended consequences? Are these not real? Not realistic? Weren’t stick shakers brought forth with unintended consequences? Did anyone even look for the amount of these kinds of things in aviation? I base my thesis judgement upon the risks of negative consequences that have not been addressed in the thesis discussion or here. Nobody argued against the negative consequences.

If this is truly an important aspect of aviation to have adapted, I’ve asked about/suggested it be part of some aviation ASTM group. Isn’t this how things have been changed in aviation before, you know things like Mosaic? Has there been a better suggestion on how to have this be made standard or mandated? Is there some other way for this to be done? I judge this to be a major weakness in the strategy to bring this thesis to life.

I’ve asked about some data driven analysis, basically some cost benefit type thing done, similar to how the Faa handles service bulletins/instructions. If this analysis were available and compelling, wouldn’t it be wildly positive for the thesis? I judge the weakness of the thesis and the discussions here by this not being specifically addressed.
Please explain your rationale for this extended diatribe “against” the OP’s thesis”! You sound too much like a “naysayer” who is voicing your contentment for a new tool to keep a pilot and aircraft within a safe regime during all phases of flight. If changing one particular mechanism to a different one that may provide more accurate, reliable, and detailed information in ALL flight parameters instead of just one given parameter turns out to work quite well, why argue so vehemently against the desire to change?

I can only surmise from your insistence that you have better information than all the multitude of other individuals working toward a safer tomorrow for all of us! If true, please enlighten all of us with the knowledge we lack but still desire to know!
 
Please explain your rationale for this extended diatribe “against” the OP’s thesis”! You sound too much like a “naysayer” who is voicing your contentment for a new tool to keep a pilot and aircraft within a safe regime during all phases of flight. If changing one particular mechanism to a different one that may provide more accurate, reliable, and detailed information in ALL flight parameters instead of just one given parameter turns out to work quite well, why argue so vehemently against the desire to change?

I can only surmise from your insistence that you have better information than all the multitude of other individuals working toward a safer tomorrow for all of us! If true, please enlighten all of us with the knowledge we lack but still desire to know!

I’m willing to do that, but first, please restate the thesis the OP brought forth and asked for commentary on. Copy and paste ok
 
Wow, great discussion, and I appreciate everyone taking time to comment (and to continue to comment!). Paul, thank you so much for the mutual support!

A number of the comments have understandably focused on AOA hardware, displays, and sensors. Those are worthwhile discussions, but they're actually separate from the central idea of the paper. The paper is intentionally system agnostic. It isn't advocating a particular AOA system, display, or manufacturer. It's asking a much simpler question: would general aviation benefit from adopting a common aerodynamic language for aircraft control?

That's the motivation behind the Fast, On-Speed, Slow framework. It isn't intended to replace V-speeds or the guidance in the POH. Those remain essential performance references. Instead, Fast, On-Speed, and Slow describe the aerodynamic state of the wing in a way that remains meaningful regardless of aircraft type.

If you step back and look at how we actually fly, the framework is remarkably simple. During most normal maneuvering flight we're either intentionally fast, intentionally on-speed, or intentionally slow. Fast provides energy margin. On-speed represents a highly efficient operating point that balances lift demand, controllability, and energy management, making it an excellent reference for many maneuvering tasks, including the approach and landing environment. Slow is generally reserved for operations where we intentionally accept reduced stall margin, such as slow flight, stall practice, or other training exercises.

That's really the point of the paper. The proposal isn't that every pilot should buy a particular AOA indicator. It's that pilots, instructors, manufacturers, and avionics developers could all benefit from speaking the same aerodynamic language. Once we agree on that common language, the discussion of how best to present that information to the pilot—whether by airspeed, angle of attack, audio cues, visual displays, or some future technology—becomes a separate engineering and human factors discussion.

One quick observation on the audio discussion. I understand that flying with tones is different, and I recognize it isn't for everyone. My only suggestion is to give a well-calibrated system an honest try before deciding. Most of us who've flown with progressive audio for any length of time have found it becomes surprisingly intuitive because it lets you keep your attention outside the cockpit. Whether you ultimately prefer tones, a visual display, a numerical presentation, or something else is really a human factors discussion. Lots of ways to skin the cat.

Here is a great example of an AOA tone "glove save." There was an over-shooting gust end game during a short approach. There is also a big 'ol AOA "indexer" right in the center of my scan (where I prefer a visual display):


BTW, this clip was generated by our new video editor that allows you to upload a log and video--they system auto-synchs and generates video for de-brief.

One of the significant shortcomings of all civilian AOA systems is a lack of factory or automatic calibration and common (standard) cues. We've made significant progress in the last month fusing multiple AOA sources and improving automatic calibration. This is fascinating to watch--the system is calibrating itself as I just "fly around" in each flap setting (an AOA system requires a separate calibration for each flap setting):


The team and I will be up at Oshkosh. I believe we have a forum on Monday. We've got a simulator with the ONSPEED system up in the PPC (Pilot Proficiency Center) adjacent to the museum and will likely have another one set up somewhere on campus at a place TBD. Reach out to me via text at (850) 974-4472, and if I'm available I'm happy to chat! And to foot-stomp Paul's post--take advantage of any of the AOA venues to learn and experiment.
 
I’m willing to do that, but first, please restate the thesis the OP brought forth and asked for commentary on. Copy and paste ok
Why restate it? He stated it. You read it. The OPs statement, about his “thesis”, is not what I asked about. I asked a question of you about your motivation for arguing vehemently against what he posted. What does the act of restating the OPs statement have to do with whether you can answer my question to you?
 
Why restate it? He stated it. You read it. The OPs statement, about his “thesis”, is not what I asked about. I asked a question of you about your motivation for arguing vehemently against what he posted. What does the act of restating the OPs statement have to do with whether you can answer my question to you?
Because the thesis is what all of this is based upon and I wanna make sure that we’re talking about the same point
 
While I totally agree with the rest of your post, I must take issue with this paragraph.

[rant=on]
I actually think it’s been a total disaster that’s led to deaths to hundreds if not thousands of pilots all over the world.

Mention of it and its concept should be consigned to the bin of history. Every aircraft should be fitted with AoA, and every pilot should be taught how to fly AoA from day one.
You’ve just summarize Vac’s main thesis; he’s just being more polite so as to soothe and get the message received.

My airline provided some classroom tuition to all its Airbus pilots on stalling and aircraft protections last year. It was titled “Airbus low speed protections” . I just wanted to cry.

[rant=off]

Here is a much better Airbus lesson though it also has general applicability:
 
@Ironflight

Have you seen the Airflow Performance Monitor recently developed in Montreal, Canada? Works just like a pressure diff AOA for a healthy wing and also compensates for contaminated (iced) wing and/or damaged wing.
 
Let’s say someone is practicing pattern flight and loses control on turn to final and dies. If they failed to keep track of airspeed, bank angle, wind direction, or some other factor, will they pay attention to yet another indicator like aoa?

You’ve just proved the value of AOA — you only need to monitor AOA not three or more factors. You’ve reduced the cognitive load and the required scan volume substantially. You’ve gained a much more rapid means to directly assess current energy condition in a manner that is naturally intuitive. With it you’re much less likely to stall spin. And also, bonus, as you’ve eased cognitive load, you’re also less likely to midair as you have more capacity for looking around dense patterns.
There is already an accepted standard method for understanding margin.

To accept another requires info showing its superiority.

You just did, thank you.
 
If I test and or understand my airplanes V speed numbers at or near gross weight, then honor those figures with a margin for safety, how does this make me unsafe?



Aren't stall speeds part of the certification process? If this is so important a thing to add, shouldn't this be part of some ASTM group? What is being done for serious industry acceptance? Should V speeds be dropped?
V speeds are only valid at max gross weight forward cg and for some at sea level. AOA compensates taking the work off the pilot. Stall speed is a certified value at max gross weight forward cg but it is a speed not an AOA because they lacked the AOA instrumentation. Look at the Icon A5 POH, note all procedures are written in terms of AOA. Yes, most V speeds should be dropped. You want the high end energy ones like Vne, Vno, Vfe but throw out Vx, Vy, Vs, Vso, Vref as all are better done via AOA. As are min power required and L/Dmax which means turn perf is better done by AOA and Vbg (still air) is also better done by AOA. What makes you unsafe is when load gets increased. AOA compensates for this, speeds do not.
 
“Oh, but big airplanes have vane sensors.” Yes, they absolutely do. They also have jet engines, so the prop slipstream is not a factor. Yes, you can put a vane sensor out near the wingtip of your RV - but they are delicate and I bet it won’t last. I’ve used several GA systems with the vane transducer, and have found that inexpensive ones tend to stick or bind. The pressure sensor AoA (either in teh pitot or “top/bottom? Holes) has been proven to keep you out of the weeds pretty reliably (there are always exceptions of course), and unless you are trying to do a test program where AoA needs to be measured to sub-degree accuracy, they are good for pilot use.
Except the F-117 and B-2. These use(d) pressure diff. They used pressure diff for both alpha and beta. Meanwhile the AV-8B, the F-14, and the U-2 all had yaw strings.
 
. The proposal isn't that every pilot should buy a particular AOA indicator. It's that pilots, instructors, manufacturers, and avionics developers could all benefit from speaking the same aerodynamic language.

I have difficulty seeing how adding fast, slow and on-speed to my list of variables that need attention while flying an airplane not equipped with an AOA indication would improve anything for me.

One thing missing from this discussion is an alternate way of assessing angle of attack. Langeweische wrote about the many indirect ways in "Stick and Rudder", Chapter 4. He described the most direct way on page 69 - 70. Basically, you pull back slightly on the stick and the enthusiasm of the airplane's response is directly related to the distance from the stall. I tested it for myself and it works very well. I am not aware of using it routinely, but Langeweische claimed experienced pilots often use it subconsciously. I plan to use it continually to help me land safely after failure of the airspeed indicator.
 
Langeweische wrote about the many indirect ways in "Stick and Rudder", Chapter 4. He described the most direct way on page 69 - 70. Basically, you pull back slightly on the stick and the enthusiasm of the airplane's response is directly related to the distance from the stall.
Perceptions of stick displacement and stick force can be rather deceiving hence can you know how much you’ve pulled so as to match to the response so as to see how enthusiastic it actually is?

 
@RNB - here are some more "data" for you that hasn't been discussed yet:


From the exec summary:

Recommendations
The FAA recommends owners and operators of all airplanes type certificated under 14 CFR part 23
and operating under 14 CFR parts 121, 135, 91, or subpart K to part 91, and experimental amateur-
built airplanes both certified and non-certified, do the following:
• Install and calibrate critical AOA alerting systems.
• Receive training on the use of AOA indicators and how to incorporate them in instrument
scans
 
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Reactions: RNB
Here is a great example of an AOA tone "glove save." There was an over-shooting gust end game during a short approach. There is also a big 'ol AOA "indexer" right in the center of my scan (where I prefer a visual display):
MIke - GREAT Video! I've had several "glove saves" with the AOA tones in the pattern, although none quite so dramatic as that one. I tend to fly pretty tight, aggressive patterns and a "Short approach" is pretty much my "normal" approach unless tower can't accommodate it. A few times when I've been pulling a little too much from the Perch to line up on final - I've gotten the quick beep beep beep and that tells me to just ease a touch and the tones go away. Its instant feedback at a busy and critical stage that I would unlikely to have been able to detect or process until I started getting into stall buffet. And by then it might have been a bit too late. So yeah, AOA I believe will save peoples lives because the airplane only really cares about AOA.

As an aside - I personally prefer the tones as a "Hey dummy, stop doing that" signal rather than a constant on-going tone or slow series of beeps that I feel is holding my hand the entire time even when I'm doing it all correctly. But as you say, that's a different conversation. Truly, there are many ways to skin that human factors cat.
 
Perceptions of stick displacement and stick force can be rather deceiving hence can you know how much you’ve pulled so as to match to the response so as to see how enthusiastic it actually is?


What I do is apply the same force (briefly) and notice how far the stick moves and how quickly and far the plane pitches. (I'm much better at applying a force consistently by "feel" than moving the stick a given distance.) For me, the differences between 20, 10 and 4 knots over the stall speed are so obvious I don't see how anyone could miss them.
 
@RNB - here are some more "data" for you that hasn't been discussed yet:


From the exec summary:

Recommendations
The FAA recommends owners and operators of all airplanes type certificated under 14 CFR part 23
and operating under 14 CFR parts 121, 135, 91, or subpart K to part 91, and experimental amateur-
built airplanes both certified and non-certified, do the following:
• Install and calibrate critical AOA alerting systems.
• Receive training on the use of AOA indicators and how to incorporate them in instrument
scans
Yes! Exactly the stuff I asked for early on!
Didn’t need to post a 16 page thesis with that.
As far as thesis input I expect the OP should have better just said he was going to be at OSH and was in the business. No need to pretend look for input.
 
Yes! Exactly the stuff I asked for early on!
Didn’t need to post a 16 page thesis with that.
As far as thesis input I expect the OP should have better just said he was going to be at OSH and was in the business. No need to pretend look for input.
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Yes! Exactly the stuff I asked for early on!
Didn’t need to post a 16 page thesis with that.
As far as thesis input I expect the OP should have better just said he was going to be at OSH and was in the business. No need to pretend look for input.

Ok. Maybe this is what your looking for.....

The Disadvantages of Flying With AOA

Lack of Visual Standardization:
The FAA notes that AOA displays are not fully standardized across the industry. Systems can feature colored arcs, indexing blocks, or digital representations, which means a pilot must learn the unique presentation of their specific unit.

Calibration Risks:
An AOA indicator is only useful if it is properly calibrated. An incorrectly calibrated instrument can feed a pilot faulty data, which creates a false sense of security and poses a distinct flight hazard

Instrument Fixation:
Adding another screen or gauge to the instrument panel can trigger fixation. Pilots must actively resist staring at the AOA inside the cockpit during critical maneuvers when their eyes should be outside looking at the runway environment.
 
What I do is apply the same force (briefly) and notice how far the stick moves and how quickly and far the plane pitches. (I'm much better at applying a force consistently by "feel" than moving the stick a given distance.) For me, the differences between 20, 10 and 4 knots over the stall speed are so obvious I don't see how anyone could miss them.

Do it at four g and see if you can similarly tell the differences; there is merit that you won’t get much load increase or have a lack of enthusiasm, if near the edge, but can you actually perceive such?
 
Yes! Exactly the stuff I asked for early on!
Didn’t need to post a 16 page thesis with that.
As far as thesis input I expect the OP should have better just said he was going to be at OSH and was in the business. No need to pretend look for input.
Not in the business, although I'll put our flight test and engineering capability up there with any manufacturer or research organization. We are an all-volunteer, non-profit group trying to help reduce LOC mishap stats, which have remained remarkably unchanged since the NTSB started keeping records in 1963. I don't care how good a pilot you are, LOC is an equal-opportunity killer. Just as many well-trained, experienced pilots suffer LOC mishaps as young pilots. While it is possible to “fly by feel” and pitch a power settings, it can’t be infallible, or we would have figured out a better way to teach it. That “seat of the pants” technique is also highly aircraft, weight and density altitude dependent. There also seems to be a great gulf between military and civil aviation, which I don't understand, since physics are physics and an airplane doesn't care how it's painted, who is flying it, or where that pilot was trained. The military recognized it had a problem 70 years ago, and AOA was part of the answer. Prior to modern tech that answer was expensive. It no longer needs to be so. We can use techniques previously reserved for multi-million and -billion acquisition projects. We can also leverage advanced AI and iterate quickly completing tasks in hours that used to take days and weeks. :giggle:

How any of us pilots feel doesn't matter. The wing respects a single parameter when it comes to attached airflow. And, if you stop to think about it, some combination of AOA and power are what produce airspeed in level and climbing flight. I asked our engineers to give me maneuvering angle (corner velocity or maneuvering speed depending on where you learned to fly), L/Dmax, fast, on speed, slow and stall warning indications in each flap configuration. That allows me to hit all of the performance parameters I need to fly and maneuver; and land safely with great precision regardless of gross weight, density altitude or g-load. On speed is the same cue in the 777 I fly at work, the fighters I used to fly and my RV-4. I use the information exactly the same way in each airplane. Common cuing would make it easy to hop in any airplane and understand how hard the wing is working. And, yes, I fully agree that calibration has to be bullet-proof; and other than building identical airplanes in a factory, the only way to do that is with full-automatic calibration that literally takes the pilot out of the loop. And, although we are discussing LOC and stall margin, one of the best attributes of the basic control model is the precision it provides for landing--whether you are trying to catch a three wire or three-point on the numbers. You can make a cogent argument that the landing in the video is out of an un-stable approach (or at the very least there is an upset while low and slow turning final), yet it's a three-point touchdown on the numbers. I'm only able to do that because of the feedback I'm getting from the AOA system since there isn't any aerodynamic feedback in the RV-4 at that g-load. Your kinetic energy for the drill can be perfect if you have the right feedback. I have to land every time I fly, and try to keep my unintentional loss of control incidents to a minimum.

I'm happy to have an off-line flight test science, aircraft handling discussion or share some of our academic work as well. Just drop me a PM.

v/r,

Vac
 
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A number of the comments have understandably focused on AOA hardware, displays, and sensors. Those are worthwhile discussions, but they're actually separate from the central idea of the paper. The paper is intentionally system agnostic. It isn't advocating a particular AOA system, display, or manufacturer. It's asking a much simpler question: would general aviation benefit from adopting a common aerodynamic language for aircraft control?
Vac, I think so many have focused on implementation ("focused on AOA hardware, displays, and sensors") because the premise has already been accepted and we are trying to take the next step toward implementation. I suppose you and your fellow On-Speeders can take a bow on completion of the first step - acceptance.
 
Vac, thanks for this and your contributions to flight safety. Twice AOA made a difference for me and after knowing exactly when I am supposed to hear tones and not hear a tone, base to final is one. (I've been using AOA now for over 10 years) Both incidents very similar, family with me (adds some distraction), unfamiliar airport (OSH and a private field used for a fly-in) LOTS of traffic in the area so high workload and gusting winds. Maybe I would have caught the error in time, maybe not. When it happened, it was almost second nature to lower the nose and add power, both landings were my better ones. Thanks again !
 
Do it at four g and see if you can similarly tell the differences; there is merit that you won’t get much load increase or have a lack of enthusiasm, if near the edge, but can you actually perceive such?
Since I routinely flew to +8 and -5 when I was younger (+6 and -4 now that I'm 78), you arent' going to intimidate my by talking about a mere 4g. But yes, I do not use that technique to avoid stalling at high g. At high g the technique is too slow to be useful. However, there's the dozen pages in "Stick and Rudder" of other ways of perceiving the lift reserve, and I'm sure I use many of them subconsciously. In any case, flying aerobatics seriously requires doing figures consistently. If I happen to stall because I tried to use too much g for the airspeed, the wing stalls. No big deal. It's happened to me many hundreds of times in the 45 years I've been flying aerobatics (including 15 years competing in Unlimited). I recover and use a bit less g the next time I do the figure. That's how you find the limits of the plane, which is especially important when flying aircraft with marginal performance for the aerobatic sequence you are trying to fly, as I was most of my competition years.
 
If I happen to stall because I tried to use too much g for the airspeed, the wing stalls. No big deal. It's happened to me many hundreds of times in the 45 years I've been flying aerobatics (including 15 years competing in Unlimited).

Yet if you had the AOA display and/or tone many if not most perhaps even all these stalls in competition would never have happened — except of course the deliberate ones for the snaps and spins though that AOA would also readily show sense of spin. It wasn’t the aggressiveness of four vs eight g as to why I mentioned it rather the way the feel and enthusiasm changes with the load.
 
it is possible to “fly by feel” and pitch a power settings, it can’t be infallible, or we would have figured out a better way to teach it. That “seat of the pants” technique is also highly aircraft, weight and density altitude dependent. There also seems to be a great gulf between military and civil aviation, which I don't understand, since physics are physics and an airplane doesn't care how it's painted, who is flying it, or where that pilot was trained. The military recognized it had a problem 70 years ago, and AOA was part of the answer.
This raises an obvious question, but maybe I have missed how you addressed it. Could it be that military fighters and airliners provide less seat of the pants feedback than the typical RV while approaching to land? That would explain why the military found such a large safety benefit in AOA, but it does not guarantee that the benefit would be as large for small planes. If you haven't addressed this issue seriously, doing so would give your arguments a lot more credibility (to me at least).
 
Yet if you had the AOA display and/or tone many if not most perhaps even all these stalls in competition would never have happened — except of course the deliberate ones for the snaps and spins though that AOA would also readily show sense of spin. It wasn’t the aggressiveness of four vs eight g as to why I mentioned it rather the way the feel and enthusiasm changes with the load.
Well, you really seem to like irrelevant arguments, and unfortunately for people trying to read this thread I can't leave them alone either. I never stalled accidentally during a competition. All of them happened while practicing, usually while trying to find a better way of doing something.
 
Well, you really seem to like irrelevant arguments, and unfortunately for people trying to read this thread I can't leave them alone either. I never stalled accidentally during a competition. All of them happened while practicing, usually while trying to find a better way of doing something.
Well, then in your practices you wouldn’t have so unintentionally stalled.
 
Well, you really seem to like irrelevant arguments, and unfortunately for people trying to read this thread I can't leave them alone either. I never stalled accidentally during a competition. All of them happened while practicing, usually while trying to find a better way of doing something.
Just to reiterate, @Notso already mentioned just about all their parameters for fighting were AOA. Similarly, Mike Goulian uses and is a strong advocate for the use of AOA.
 
This raises an obvious question, but maybe I have missed how you addressed it. Could it be that military fighters and airliners provide less seat of the pants feedback than the typical RV while approaching to land? That would explain why the military found such a large safety benefit in AOA, but it does not guarantee that the benefit would be as large for small planes. If you haven't addressed this issue seriously, doing so would give your arguments a lot more credibility (to me at least).
Yes, in Vac’s case, the F-4 would suddenly and violently depart typically with a yaw slice with no warning. Getting the two-tone AOA on the F-4 was one of Burt Rutan’s first accomplishments in aviation. Going even earlier with century fighters and really stubby and/or severely swept wings and also with lots of fuselage mass, look out. Fast forward to nowadays with fly-by-wire and no reversible controls…

Though separate from the feel concern, how do you ensure a consistent eye sight glidepath with hook-to-eye distance appropriate so as to have a precision spot for the hook point to hit in order to catch a wire on a rolling and pitching boat? There is no naval aviation without AOA the moment we started flying jets.

But with the demonstrated gains in safety from these, why wouldn’t we want to add such especially as doing so is now so cheap?


 
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