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Wing Spar Cap Double holes misaligned?
- Thread starter BillL
- Start date
Would go through…… or wouldn’t go through?
Edited for NOT go through. He said on one end of the doubler holes matched, but the other end did not match. Not clear if it is progressively offset along the length. I suggested using a drill bit solid end to roughly quantify the offset. The second spar was just fine. L/R not specified.
I just checked both of my spars. I can't get an LP4-3 rivet through any of the holes where the doubler is installed. On the shorter piece of the spar, it looks like the holes are visibly smaller than a regular size 30 hole. I can get a size #30 drill bit through the longer spar piece, but the shorter piece(the one with the doubler), I have to step down to a #31 drill bit to get through. I'm calling Van's in the morning, but has anyone reamed the spar to get rivets installed on the -15? If nobody else has done this, I don't plan on being the first.
wiktor256
I'm New Here
I checked my spars, and I have the same problem. It almost seems to me that the doubler didn't have clecos on one side during riveting. The misalignment on one of my spars is small, and I can pry the holes with some difficulty to be able to put LP4-3 rivets in them. But the misalignment on the second spar is much bigger and I can't pry it into place. The holes seem to be the correct diameter though.
I suspect that in the worst case, I could drill out all rivets from the doubler and re-rivet it. But I am definitely not going to do such a nice job like Van's did.
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To answer questions about whether anyone has reamed the rivet holes on these 15 spars: Yes I have.
This is the 8th RV I have built. There have always been instances on every one when I had to ream a rivet hole to get a rivet to fit. What exactly does anyone think will happen to those rivet holes if you do have to ream them to get a rivet to fit? You should absolutely get advice from Vans on this concern, but I pretty much know what they will say.
This is the 8th RV I have built. There have always been instances on every one when I had to ream a rivet hole to get a rivet to fit. What exactly does anyone think will happen to those rivet holes if you do have to ream them to get a rivet to fit? You should absolutely get advice from Vans on this concern, but I pretty much know what they will say.
I consider reaming holes to be acceptable when the fastener will be a standard aluminum rivet because it does a fairly good job of entirely filling an irregular shaped hole.
I am not in favor of reaming when an LP4-3 or similar blind rivet will be used.
If you insert a cleco into every hole can you get the rivets to fit?
Also how long is the spar cap?
Reason I ask is that I have a spare RV10 HS rear spar in my garage roof.
The reason being - it was too long to punch in one operation so they move it in between punches. If the jigging isn’t right then you can have what I had which is 3/4 of the holes lining up but the second punched 1/4 don’t. Not by much - but enough to need a new part.
Also how long is the spar cap?
Reason I ask is that I have a spare RV10 HS rear spar in my garage roof.
The reason being - it was too long to punch in one operation so they move it in between punches. If the jigging isn’t right then you can have what I had which is 3/4 of the holes lining up but the second punched 1/4 don’t. Not by much - but enough to need a new part.
Seems pretty clear in the KAI…
Update on the OP - testing with the smooth end of a drill bit. #31 fits in the spar holes that get "reamed" but starting inboard on the doubler, a #34 fits vertically ending with a #47 on the outboard end. Just so you don't have to look it up, that is .0415" centerline offset.
It will be interesting to hear Vans recommendation.
It will be interesting to hear Vans recommendation.
My spar was measured - a #31 fit all doubler holes in one, but not a #30. Second spar was 34-33-32 with all holes offset perpendicular to the spar main axis. It appears that the bend angle of the cap varies on the length, and in the direction that would result in the shift. The greater bend the smaller the drill bit that passed. The photo illustrates the bend. I wonder if the bend spring back varies along the length due to the open areas in the center web and/or stiffness of the tooling. I thought Vans used long press brakes for this so, that seems unlikely.
A straight edge on the remainder of the spar length resulted in no gaps over both sides (fore/aft) of the caps. You can see the offset in the near fuzzy hole.
A straight edge on the remainder of the spar length resulted in no gaps over both sides (fore/aft) of the caps. You can see the offset in the near fuzzy hole.
Frog Hobson
Member
Any replies back from Vans on this issue?
Nothing yet. I've pinged them once already.
N10KE
Well Known Member
Sorry, I had been excommunicated from VAF and only recently reinstated. I posted a lot more detail on the RV-15 forum of FB, but I'll summarize here.
I was the "builder friend" that @BillL referred to and thanks to him for posting on my behalf. I was concerned that this issue would not be discovered until someone was trying to rivet on the wing skin. Even then, given the instruction to ream those holes - a builder might never know.
As Bill passed along, I could only get a #34 drill bit into the first hole and it tapers to where only a #47 bit would fit. If one were to ream all the holes as stated in the KAI- there would be a lot of non-concentric holes in the doubler. Going from a #31 (which is what they should be) to a #30 would not remove much material. A new builder might not recognize how different reaming would be when one is removing a lot of material.
To Van's credit (at least initially), Tech Support got back to me very quickly stating that they would replace the spar immediately and would like the old one back for investigation. I have no doubt this doubler could be removed and a new, properly drilled one reinstalled using the equipment and processes they have in place at the factory.
Unfortunately, it has been crickets since then as I have heard nothing from them regarding shipping of a new spar, nor picking up the defective one. Doesn't really matter I guess since I also have two left flap spars, a bunch of missing tank parts (SB tanks) and only left aileron ribs.
N10KE
Well Known Member
The good news is we both caught this before assembling a majority of the wing.
The bad news is this should never have happened (decent QC would have caught this prior to shipping) and no telling how long it will be for Van’s to remedy the error.
Is the misalignment enough to prevent clecoes from going in?
I did not notice anything on my L wing (now complete); the clecoes for those aft holes were a bit tighter, but my assumption was that was due to them not being reamed. The reaming was uneventful, and similar across all of the holes (i.e. there weren't some that required excessive reaming).
I did not notice anything on my L wing (now complete); the clecoes for those aft holes were a bit tighter, but my assumption was that was due to them not being reamed. The reaming was uneventful, and similar across all of the holes (i.e. there weren't some that required excessive reaming).
N10KE
Well Known Member
The misalignment on my spar absolutely would.
I would encourage everyone to check their spars across the 51 holes that has the underlying doubler. This is in the general area of the strut attach point. Make sure you can pass a #31 drill bit shank through these holes before you ream them. My holes were so misaligned that it only required a quick visual inspection to see the assembly error.
Alphalpha
Well Known Member
Alas, the timing of this couldn't be worse with respect to Van's staff having the time jump on this right as they are spinning up to Oshkosh. Much of their stuff has to ship right about now or even earlier. I am at Oshkosh and mountains of stuff are already appearing.
N10KE
Well Known Member
Maybe both. But irrespective of that, the spar is unacceptable as built. I’m not willing to drill out a row of -4 rivets that pass through the spar web and replace the doubler. Van’s can do that at the factory with their equipment and experience assembling these spars. It’s probably a $3000 or greater part and I’m not taking the risk of messing up the spar to fix an obvious assembly error.
I’m aware that OSH is upcoming and everyone at Van’s is busy. This is such a glaring error and was so easy to see - this part should have never been shipped.
Look at my photo above. While there could be multiple issues, my spar milslignment were all a shear due to the over bent spar cap. IMO it is not caused by miss placed holes along the length, the offset is due to the bending angles, but Vans must validate that first. It is more than just replacing a part. I thought about using a porta power (or other methods) to bend the spar cap back into alignment (no wedge air gap) but have better things to do when Vans can do them better and faster. Right now, it is "their" spar.
In other words, forcing alignment with a bunch of tapers will not effect permanent change to fix the issue and would result in a buckled skin. I am not sure if the cap is 6061 or 2024 but both will have spring back and bending that upper flange back in position evenly along the length will need to be a proven process w/o trashing the spar in another manner.
N10KE
Well Known Member
Bill's issue and mine are different. Best I can tell, the holes in my doubler were mis-drilled (or maybe there is a right and left with ever so slightly different hole spacing and the assembler grabbed the wrong part?). Reaming will simply result in a lot of out of round holes in the doubler. Given the design with pulled rivets, I don't think this amount of out of roundness would be acceptable (and probably not with solid rivets either).
Tom, I can say with certainty that I did not have this problem with my alignment, and I doubt that you did either. It seems to be something that happened with spars that were sent much more recently and is certainly unfortunate.
N10KE
Well Known Member
Probably the spars that were delayed by the defective anodizing. Possibly then rushed out the door without proper QC. Now some of us are delayed even more waiting for a replacement.
At my previous employer (Lockheed) we frequently said “we aren’t given the time to do it right, so we then have to find the time to do it over”. Seems a bit appropriate here as well.
I arrived at vans with my thrice confirmed and delayed will call date of june 25 at 8am, then was told my kits woul8dn't be ready that morning. But after a half hour of scrambling they came up with my kits minus one main spar, horizontal and elevator. Was told the spars were back ordered again due to anodizing issues... wondering if it's something to due with this misalignment issue.
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N10KE
Well Known Member
Wow. I’d be beyond upset.
We had a slightly different take on that saying at a large airframe manufacturer in the PNW: "There is never time to do it right the first time, but there is plenty of time to do it over and over again!” This is waste and costs mucho dinero’s.
Early during the original 777 program, Alan Mulally called us folks working on the Program to a meeting in the factory. Three large dump trucks drove in and dumped a huge amount of scrapped parts on the floor - all waste from previous programs. He recognized that design changes (for whatever reason) and correcting errors was very costly due to rework. So he gave extra time up front during the design process (e.g., longer Loads & Design cycles, production planning and processes) to give us a better chance of getting it right the first time. Getting it right the first time was not always possible since airplane design is an iterative process, but it cut down the amount of rework substantially. It paid off handsomely on that program with much less rework than previous programs. And the customers were happy because they got a service-ready airplane at delivery. Of course the dullards from MacDac, that bought out Boeing with its own money, threw all those lessons away on the 787 Program and later ones, and the rest is history.
Van’s seems to have rushed out the -15.
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N10KE
Well Known Member
Way off topic, but Alan Mulally was one of those once in a lifetime people. The 777 program was an incredible success, in no small part due to his leadership. When he left Boeing, I was terribly disappointed. The 787 was a disaster as you indicated. (Boeing was my first employer out of college.)
Van's needs cash flow and has a lot of debt service - so I'm not terribly surprised how they are operating post-bankruptcy.
I was mistaken about receiving the spars, I did receive them at will call. Was a subkit that was backordered.... I had the part numbers confused, my bad for saying that.
Frog Hobson
Member
I just checked my spares, and the right one has the misaligned holes. Hopefully Vans sends out something soon. 
N10KE
Well Known Member
Sorry to hear that. Glad you checked before building the wings!
I wonder how may of these defective spars are out there? Quick QC check at Van's would have saved them a bunch of money and some customers a lot of aggravation.
I reported this on 6/22 and heard back from Ciaran very quickly. Clarissa was supposed to get with me on arrangements for a replacement plus return of the defective spar. Crickets so far. And yes, I know OSH is a few weeks away. Hopefully you'll have a better response.
I wonder how may of these defective spars are out there? Quick QC check at Van's would have saved them a bunch of money and some customers a lot of aggravation.
I reported this on 6/22 and heard back from Ciaran very quickly. Clarissa was supposed to get with me on arrangements for a replacement plus return of the defective spar. Crickets so far. And yes, I know OSH is a few weeks away. Hopefully you'll have a better response.
I also have heard nothing back from them for a solution. I sent pictures of everything they wanted 12 days ago. I pinged them 9 days ago. No response.
N10KE
Well Known Member
Disappointing, but I can’t say I’m surprised.
What's most annoying to me is that we know they read these posts (and the ones on FB), because they selectively respond. But we, the customers, get ignored. No response, no resolution. And yet others wonder why we complain and voice our frustration?
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Frog Hobson
Member
I just called them today about this, Vans is saying put clecos in every third hole and they should line up. Some of the holes in mine are so far off I can't even get clecos to go in.
N10KE
Well Known Member
Not an acceptable answer from Van’s. Clecos are not going to correct this misalignment.
I’m still waiting to hear from Clarissa when they are shipping my replacement spar.
Frog Hobson
Member
I agree
Frog Hobson
Member
Were both of yours messed up? Mine was just the right one
N10KE
Well Known Member
No only one. Whichever one is part number -002. I didn't bother to look which side it's for.
Data point - I just checked my R spar, kit 150024 delivered early Jan; the R spar shipped later (delivered early Feb).
The holes align normally.
I feel for you guys, that sucks ... and as pointed out before, drilling out and replacing that would be a real chore, not easy to do without damaging the spar itself.
The holes align normally.
I feel for you guys, that sucks ... and as pointed out before, drilling out and replacing that would be a real chore, not easy to do without damaging the spar itself.
N10KE
Well Known Member
Exactly, which is why I’m not going to do it. Van’s is welcome to try it when they get my defective spar back.
I think those of us with the misaligned holes were the lucky ones who were caught up in the defective anodizing process and then Van’s rushed to catch up. Whatever QC they might have done was probably just bypassed, as anyone with any experience would have caught this in a few minutes of even a cursory inspection.
As someone who works in manufacturing, I have a lot more forgiveness for out-of spec parts. Not that they are acceptable, but 100% exaustive inspection is frightfully expensive. Unless we want to pay LockMart prices for RV parts, we have to accept the possibility of mismade parts and that we are the final inspector for our work and it is up to us to find any defective parts. It is also Van's responsibility to replace or reengineer those parts or the assembly to correct the problem, but that doesn't happen instantly.
N10KE
Well Known Member
I'm going to disagree with you a bit here. This isn't a $10 rib. I'd be willing to bet this is the most expensive single part (certainly in the wing kit) and possibly in the entire RV-15 kit. These parts were already delayed at least once due to defective anodizing at a supplier. I found the defect within 2 minutes of inspection and I'm not an experienced nor trained eye. The person assembling this spar could have and should have caught the error. Even at $100 per hour fully loaded for an employee - a quick inspection would have saved Van's at lot of money.
And replacement of the defective part should happen quickly. Hopefully, they have already figured out the assembly error and corrected that.
I had a defective RV10 main spar which managed to slip through with some pretty obvious issues. Vans promptly rectified it at their expense - to the other side of the world no less.
As I mentioned above I’ve also had another defective long HS spar which had offset punching due to the part not fitting in the punch tool in one go.
This issue can be cause by two things. The holes being punched in the wrong spot, or the bend being put in the wrong spot.
What I find hard to understand about this particular problem is that whenever the factory clecoes the spar cap doubler to the spar web and starts riveting it - it seems like an obvious check/test/alignment tool to simultaneously cleco it to the flange.
If I was assembling this myself from parts this is absolutely how I would do it.
I’m as guilty as the next experienced builder/riveter of under clecoing things to save time, but this sure seems like 30seconds of extra work to save a LOT of potential grief. It would also identify defective parts immediately.
Just playing devils advocate for a second on this point - are there any witnesses marks in any of the holes from clecos? RV builders are used to playing with relatively thin sheet parts. Thicker parts and tolerance stackups can sometimes take a fair bit of grunt to realign disassembled assemblies.
As I mentioned above I’ve also had another defective long HS spar which had offset punching due to the part not fitting in the punch tool in one go.
This issue can be cause by two things. The holes being punched in the wrong spot, or the bend being put in the wrong spot.
What I find hard to understand about this particular problem is that whenever the factory clecoes the spar cap doubler to the spar web and starts riveting it - it seems like an obvious check/test/alignment tool to simultaneously cleco it to the flange.
If I was assembling this myself from parts this is absolutely how I would do it.
I’m as guilty as the next experienced builder/riveter of under clecoing things to save time, but this sure seems like 30seconds of extra work to save a LOT of potential grief. It would also identify defective parts immediately.
Just playing devils advocate for a second on this point - are there any witnesses marks in any of the holes from clecos? RV builders are used to playing with relatively thin sheet parts. Thicker parts and tolerance stackups can sometimes take a fair bit of grunt to realign disassembled assemblies.
I just have to ask, but isn’t this something THEY should be doing when they build it?
Frog Hobson
Member
Awesome, I am hoping to hear something back soon
