I dunno.... I'm not sure that is true. If you ground loop your tail dragger RV by yourself or with a friend - probably the only liability you'll incur is a bruised ego and maybe having to buy the airport some new runway lights. If you did that with a YE stranger in the back seat/ right seat - even if you walked away without a scratch - I'd say the odds of the parents suing you for "emotional damages" is a coin flip at best.
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Young eagles- personal ri$k management flying others.
- Thread starter RNB
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I strongly disagree with the attitude here among some posters that GA is dying or is about to die because pilots "fear" liability. Not when those fears are strongly founded in historical fact. Its a VERY real and legitimate fear. Its certainly NOT baseless.
I'm certainly NOT advocating that people not do things like fly YE's. Everyone has to make their own personal risk assessment. And I don't in any way begrudge or judge someone that makes the decision that that risk profile is too high for their own circumstances.
I also think the concept that "GA is dying" is also a bit of a bugaboo. At my airport, its a 2 year wait to get a shade hangar and rents for a T-Hanger are though the roof due to such high demand. There are at least 4 flight schools on the field and they are packed with students. Its not unusual to wait for 15-20 in line to takeoff. Is it accessable for people of low to average means?? I would argue it never really has been except maybe right after WWII. Maybe. But that's an entirely different rabbit hole to dive down....
Can you really substantiate that argument? Flight school activity doesn’t necessarily translate to a healthy GA sector. It would be more likely to surmise that a majority of the students and instructors in those aircraft are pursuing a professional aviation career. That in itself doesn’t mean they are in it for the love of GA. Many professional pilots do not fly much, if any GA; in my experience over the last 35 years in the airlines, relatively few pilots fly GA regularly and even fewer are builders.
I wasn't making the argument that GA is healthy solely on the flight school business. You're correct that probably 90+% of those students are just working towards their eventual ATP. But there are a also lot of non-school airplanes in that 15-20 minute wait for takeoff and its not the schools that are taking up all the hangars and ramp space.
I dunno, this is all purely anecdotal - so maybe GA IS dying. But when I was on my way to/from the formation clinic in CA last weekend - it sure seemed like there were a LOT of people out flying for fun/non-business reasons.
I suspect the economy/affordability drives the so-called "health" of GA far more than just the fear of liability does. And for sure the COST of liability factors into that affordability equation.
Few weeks ago it was a beautiful spring day here at Bayview, I expected the pattern to be a zoo. Hardly any airplanes all day long, late in the day a RV friend stopped by to check on my progress, I asked him if he was going flying and he said Not at $8.00/gallon for gas, Steve.
This morning at Best Buy there was a long line for a new video game coming out today, sad to think kids/people were going to stay inside instead of getting outside and blowing the stink off.
I also remember growing up and Dad taking me out to the airport and walking right up to hangars and meeting the pilots and looking at the airplanes. Now we're walled off by security fences and locked gates.
This morning at Best Buy there was a long line for a new video game coming out today, sad to think kids/people were going to stay inside instead of getting outside and blowing the stink off.
I also remember growing up and Dad taking me out to the airport and walking right up to hangars and meeting the pilots and looking at the airplanes. Now we're walled off by security fences and locked gates.
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It’s definitely higher. Negligence while flying is far more likely to injure a passenger than a random person on the ground, and YE flights involve repeated flights with passengers, sometimes multiple passengers.
Whether the higher risk is “too high” is an entirely different question. But there’s simply no doubt that YE flights generate greater liability risk than solo flights. That’s why EAA provides additional insurance.
I have flown over a hundred Young Eagles in my two-place Sonex. I've never had any kind of an incident. It puts a smile on my face, just as it puts a smile on theirs. Other than take off and landing, I let the kids do all the flying. I show them how the plane can go faster or slower using the control stick, or the throttle. We do turns, and even steep turns if they're into it. If they live somewhere nearby, we will sometimes try to find their house. For those kids that keep coming back, I will often teach them how to use the radio, having them practice first, and then actually transmitting.
The Sonex is a kid sized aircraft, so I often get a lot of requests to fly in my aircraft. It's fun and incredibly rewarding! I choose not to be overly concerned about the liability. I leave my house everyday, and I drive my car everyday. I choose not to be overly concerned about the liability.
I say you do what makes you happy and keeps you comfortable. No need to worry about what others think.
The Sonex is a kid sized aircraft, so I often get a lot of requests to fly in my aircraft. It's fun and incredibly rewarding! I choose not to be overly concerned about the liability. I leave my house everyday, and I drive my car everyday. I choose not to be overly concerned about the liability.
I say you do what makes you happy and keeps you comfortable. No need to worry about what others think.
When I got my pilot's license 55 years ago, there were airplane dealers (both Piper and Cessna) at that airport (OMA)....with actual showrooms with new airplanes parked in them. I paid for my flying lessons from my job at the gas station where I was paid $1.40 hour. Then, within a few years, product liability became an increasingly bigger thing, and yeah...General Aviation started dying. Not because prospective pilots "feared" liability, but because the results of that liability were driving mfgrs out of business and costs out of sight. Those manufacturer's could not afford to stay in business, or at least make airplanes that Private Pilots could afford. I'm certain that there are a LOT of people out there who would love to learn to fly but simply cannot afford to do so.
Maybe it looks different from the vantage of a different generation, but from the perspective of someone who's been involved in aviation and seen it evolve over more than half a century, GA is dying.
rmarshall234
Well Known Member
If you take the 50 year perspective as MacCool has done -which applies to me as well- GA is definitely dying. The question is…what defines GA nowadays? To me, it has always been the average person owning and flying an airplane for fun, enjoyment and transportation. So much of what is now classified as GA involves revenue producing activities which really skews the data. GA (as I have always known it) has become unaffordable for the average person and the trend is not looking good going forward.
As for giving back / paying it forward with activities such as Young Eagles…it reminds me of a great quote I heard a long time ago. “The trouble with character is everybody wants to build it but nobody wants to do the maintenance”
As for giving back / paying it forward with activities such as Young Eagles…it reminds me of a great quote I heard a long time ago. “The trouble with character is everybody wants to build it but nobody wants to do the maintenance”
I have to disagree...50 years ago, in my teen years, the only people I or my family knew who owned planes were doctors or wealthy lawyers/businessmen. The "average person" did not, as far as I *ever* saw, own their own plane. Even my father, who got his pilot's license and owned his own business, didn't own his own plane but rented them instead. Not very different from today, really. Except today, I know of several people/friends and at least one family member who *do* own their own (older model) Cessnas and Pipers.
I think the hand-wringing "GA is dying" is just another variant of "kids these days"...nostalgia for a time that only really existed in the imagination.
As for liability...do people think that torts were invented in the last 30 years? People have been suing people since Roman times. I've not seen any *hard* evidence that the number of general aviation liability suits has increased on a per capita (or per licensed pilot/owner) basis. I'd be happy to be corrected if someone actually has such data.
(ETA: Quick search turned up FAA data on the ten-year trend in airman certificates...doesn't exactly look like it's "dying" to me.)
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"...GA (as I have always known it) has become unaffordable for the average person and the trend is not looking good going forward..."
While it is likely true that the average person would find it difficult to own, maintain, and fly their own aircraft, it doesn't necessarily mean that they cannot still rent an enjoy flying. it is all about choices; what does it cost to play a round of golf every week? Remember to include the 19th hole fees. How about a Starbucks coffee every day? A case of beer a week? The list can easily get longer.
Point is, flying can still be affordable if you choose to make it so.
That said, GA certainly is not what it was when I was younger; it would seem that to the younger generation, GA is a means to an end (airlines) and not for the joy of flying.
While it is likely true that the average person would find it difficult to own, maintain, and fly their own aircraft, it doesn't necessarily mean that they cannot still rent an enjoy flying. it is all about choices; what does it cost to play a round of golf every week? Remember to include the 19th hole fees. How about a Starbucks coffee every day? A case of beer a week? The list can easily get longer.
Point is, flying can still be affordable if you choose to make it so.
That said, GA certainly is not what it was when I was younger; it would seem that to the younger generation, GA is a means to an end (airlines) and not for the joy of flying.
Yeah... and those kids better stay off my lawn!!
Again, I guess I must be having different experiences than you all. The young men and women that I meet (and some whom I've taken flying and ended up setting the "hook") are going into aviation because they *love* flying. Maybe the ones I meet are just different, I don't know.
But I tell every teen or college student or younger person I get the chance to...find something you *love* to do and study that and go into that career, because whatever you choose, you're going to do it for a very long time. And no amount of money, in my mind, can make up for a job you hate.
So no, I don't think these kids are "just in it for the money". YMMV.
I fly with many, many younger pilots at work; sometime during the trip flying GA comes up. I have to say that a large percentage indicate that they haven't flown GA in a long time. Doesn't sound like someone who just *loves* to fly...
I completely agree that no amount of money can make up for a job you hate.
If it’s dying, maybe it will become easier to find a hangar.
The number of airplanes in the GA fleet isn't increasing, and the number of private pilots is about half of what it was in 1980. Perhaps the lack of hangar availability is a sign that it's dying?
I sure hope so... 5+ year wait at my home base...
The Australian Bureau of Statistics is a govt run organization which collects and analyzes statistical data, much like your BLS.
It's been publishing a statistical series every quarter since the 1950s capturing mean and median Australian incomes. Or, more precisely, "mean adult pre-tax full-time weekly earnings" with crosstabs breaking it down by various demographics.
We also have less rigorous data about historical GA costs. One datapoint we can use as a proxy for the cost of GA is "hourly wet hire rate for a Cessna 172." They've been available throughout the same period as the income data, and they've been advertised in flying magazines etc across the whole duration, so that's probably at least as good a statistic as anything else.
So you can do a comparison: Pick a magazine ad which depicts an hourly hire rate for a 172, then go back through the ABS's statistical series on incomes at the publication date, and express the cost of hiring a 172 as a percentage of an Australian average weekly income.
And when you do that, the result you get is about 15%, +/- 2%.
Not just now, but always. Throughout the entire sample period, an hour in a Cessna 172 costs between 13% and 17% of the Australian average full-time pre-tax adult income. Some years a little bit higher, some years a little bit lower, but centered on 15% the entire time.
So is GA really more expensive than ever? Probably not. Certainly not at any point in my lifetime. It's never been a cheap hobby, but it's never really been less expensive than it is now.
Plenty of stories about how "When I was starting out I could get a flying lesson for twelve bucks!" without similar emphasis on how you were probably earning $100 per week.
- mark
The people I meet are surprised to find out that they can actually become a private pilot, and even more amazed that they could build an airplane from a kit. When I tell them that I can hop in my airplane and fly pretty much anywhere I want with minimum fuss, their head explodes. I'm not sure we need or want GA to grow, but if we do, we're not getting the message out.
Flying young eagles is fun and rewarding most of the time. Liability is a concern I suppose. You will fly lots of different personalities, some are fun, some are a little less fun. Ultimately my goal is to strike some spark in at least one passenger per event, if I do I consider it worth it. A typical YE day around here is 3 or 4 sorties. One good ride is enough for me. Four would be awesome. Usually it is closer to 2 out of 4, which is pretty good. I have had a fortunate life and am happy to share. I have never worried too much about liability, maybe I should, but I probably won't.
Remember, even if you find the potential liability to be personally unacceptable, the Young Eagles system always needs volunteers on the ground...registration, flight line escorts, or just ordinary organization and promotion. You can do something. Heck, write a check. I'm proud to say my Chapter donated $12K in an initial funding round for a new scholarship account.
Second, don't miss opportunities to inspire just because it doesn't involve your RV. Let me introduce Mr. Henlopen. He operated a hobby shop in Harrisburg PA. If a kid was interested in building model airplanes, he was always there for them.
Yes, that's me, age 15, flying RC under Hen's watchful eye.
Second, don't miss opportunities to inspire just because it doesn't involve your RV. Let me introduce Mr. Henlopen. He operated a hobby shop in Harrisburg PA. If a kid was interested in building model airplanes, he was always there for them.
Yes, that's me, age 15, flying RC under Hen's watchful eye.
I feel like adding a few thoughts to this discussion.
1. GA is being squeezed from both sides. 50 years ago arguments were made that private flying was practical, not just fun. The practical argument has been squeezed almost out of existence. On the low speed side, cars and roads today are faster and safer than 50 years ago. On the high speed side coach airline tickets today are much cheaper than 50 years ago (inflation adjusted).
2. Government policies. I happened to be a member of a flying club in the mid 1980’s when, almost overnight, the cost of a ‘lease-back’ airplane went way up. This was due solely to changes in the tax laws, which had subsidized a lot of GA flying thru the 1970’s.
3. Urbanization. Everyone knows that the population of the entire state of WY is smaller than the population of Washington DC, right? In the ‘old days’ rural airports had lots of small plane business. But as people moved to cities, there was no land to expand, or build new, airports in the cities. The rural airports went broke, the urban airports had hangar shortages.
Things change. I fly today because of the personal pleasure it gives me. But I know it’s an expensive hobby, almost as bad as golf!
1. GA is being squeezed from both sides. 50 years ago arguments were made that private flying was practical, not just fun. The practical argument has been squeezed almost out of existence. On the low speed side, cars and roads today are faster and safer than 50 years ago. On the high speed side coach airline tickets today are much cheaper than 50 years ago (inflation adjusted).
2. Government policies. I happened to be a member of a flying club in the mid 1980’s when, almost overnight, the cost of a ‘lease-back’ airplane went way up. This was due solely to changes in the tax laws, which had subsidized a lot of GA flying thru the 1970’s.
3. Urbanization. Everyone knows that the population of the entire state of WY is smaller than the population of Washington DC, right? In the ‘old days’ rural airports had lots of small plane business. But as people moved to cities, there was no land to expand, or build new, airports in the cities. The rural airports went broke, the urban airports had hangar shortages.
Things change. I fly today because of the personal pleasure it gives me. But I know it’s an expensive hobby, almost as bad as golf!
GA certainly is not dying in east Tennessee. Hangars are being built and many aircraft tied down on ramps that had to be expanded to handle all the aircraft that can't get hangar space yet. I don't recall Aircraft ownership and flying ever being a young persons hobby. Many that did start flying early in life had to put it on hold while raising a family and working. I first soloed in 1969 and didn't get my ticket until 2006.
Perhaps I'm just a glass half full kind of guy, but I'm amazed at the value that's out there. You can get a nearly 200 mph fully aerobatic airplane for $50k. (Spoiler: RV-4). That's the average price of a new car these days. And you don't even have to build it. It's a mini-P51. They're out there right now.
When was the last time you could get a plane like that for the price of an average car?
With the latest regulatory changes, you can take short course and then do all the maintenance on it, including the condition inspection. You can fly a wide variety of GA airplanes without an FAA medical certificate now, too. Even if you opt for (or need) the medical certificate, there are so many previously disqualifying conditions that can now be approved, albeit with an ample supply of patience and hoop-jumping.
Now hangars, that's another nut -- and a tough one -- to crack...
--Ron
When was the last time you could get a plane like that for the price of an average car?
With the latest regulatory changes, you can take short course and then do all the maintenance on it, including the condition inspection. You can fly a wide variety of GA airplanes without an FAA medical certificate now, too. Even if you opt for (or need) the medical certificate, there are so many previously disqualifying conditions that can now be approved, albeit with an ample supply of patience and hoop-jumping.
Now hangars, that's another nut -- and a tough one -- to crack...
--Ron
That's because it was never an actual valid argument in the first place...it was just marketing and sales hype, and the market figured that out very quickly.
This. I love the ads touting the utility of relatively inexpensive GA planes for practical personal (and business!) travel. AOPA has also done that kind of marketing. Puh-leeze.
Not entirely true. Back in the early 80’s my employer allowed us to use (with limits) private aircraft for business trips, with reimbursement limited to $xx per mile (xx calculated to be less than faa guidelines for incidental business travel) but in no case more than commercial airfare. It was usually slower than commercial travel, but a whole lot more fun. Enough people did this that the local flying club could justify having a lease back V tail. Some years later (after a bad accident) my employer no longer allowed business travel by private aircraft. The V tail usage dropped off so much that the flying club had to get rid of it.
I think these sorts of cases are more the exception than the rule. In my case, using a non-commercial aircraft for transportation for business travel was not only disallowed, if you did it anyway, it was a firing offense. However, I do know that others at similar institutions were allowed to use them.
I'm only saying that the GA manufacturers tried to sell their aircraft as a "practical" travel option, but for the vast majority of people, they just weren't. They've always been expensive to buy, generally more costly to use than commercial travel, and the markets are very small (unless you're an executive for a company that can buy its own G-VI or the like, of course
... but the argument for those is not about cost to operate, it's about the CEO's time being so valuable that they "need" a corporate jet).
I'm only saying that the GA manufacturers tried to sell their aircraft as a "practical" travel option, but for the vast majority of people, they just weren't. They've always been expensive to buy, generally more costly to use than commercial travel, and the markets are very small (unless you're an executive for a company that can buy its own G-VI or the like, of course
... but the argument for those is not about cost to operate, it's about the CEO's time being so valuable that they "need" a corporate jet).
And if you throw enough money at a bizjet or turboprop, you can pretty much count on being able to use it for reasonably safe travel on a schedule year round. That’s not true for low cost owner-operated piston bugsmashers.
Knowing nothing about this accident, I’ll boldly guess it involved a situation where the weather capabilities, mechanical reliability, pilot training, etc. associated with a corporate bizjet or turboprop operation would have made the whole thing a non-issue. I could well be wrong in this specific case, maybe it was a midair or something, but that’s often the scenario.
Steve,
Your characterization of the YE types is both humorous and true.
I have had a small number that are "natural" pilots, i.e. they can hold altitude, heading and smoothly perform gentle turns.
They are the minority in my experience.
But are a refreshing joy to fly. I think they have the most potential to pursue aviation.
I have had a few that do not belong in the cockpit of a small plane.
Hopefully, I will not have any more of that variety.
Most are happy to be there, enjoying a few minutes of RV fun.
Happy Landings,
Daddyman58
Around 5 years ago I was asked if I would give a young college student studying for a ME degree his first ride in a GA aircraft, and I agreed. After takeoff I give him the controls, and we practiced turns, turns around a point, and some other flight. After the flight young man kept thanking me, and his Dad thanked me.
Student later joined ROTC, and before graduation was recruited by USAF. After joining USAF for pilot training, he has now completed PPL on USAF dime while training for back seat F15. I was told by his family that first ride made a big impact on him. It’s pretty gratifying to help someone discover their dreams.
Student later joined ROTC, and before graduation was recruited by USAF. After joining USAF for pilot training, he has now completed PPL on USAF dime while training for back seat F15. I was told by his family that first ride made a big impact on him. It’s pretty gratifying to help someone discover their dreams.
My thoughts. If you are flying your own plane for the purpose of getting somewhere on behalf of your employer and have an accident, that employer now becomes fair game for the estate/plaintiff. Really no different than a worker getting injured on the job. WAYYYY deeper pockets. It was no surprise to me that his was disallowed many years ago when I tried to do this for my job. Luckilly I worked for several small SW companies that didn't have staff attorneys to help establish these kinds of policies, so was able to do it in some cases.
There's a little sales hype in everything, but it was practical, the -8 even more so because of the speed.
I regularly worked an auction in Hattiesburg MS, buying light commercial trucks. It was a one hour flight, vs a four hour drive. Apples to apples, including the drive to and from an airport at each end, preflight, etc, it was two hours vs four hours, exactly the sort of trip featured in the marketing hype, roughly 300 miles with no practical airline service.
Here's the kicker. The sale started at 9AM. I needed to be there by 8 if I was to have time to inspect trucks. Driving required leaving at 4 AM, or going the previous day and getting a hotel room. Flying required leaving the house at 6, with wheels up at 6:30. If the trucks were rotten, I was back in my office by 10:30. If I stayed for the whole sale, I was back and doing business by 3PM.
My competitive advantage? I didn't have a corporate legal counsel predicting doom if I crashed. My competitors were in fact driving to the sale, or didn't show up at all.
So, let's not blame the marketers. The problem was (and is) the rise of the plaintiff's bar as the 800 lb gorilla in the room...everybody's room. So here we are, crying about costs, and afraid to take a kid for a ride.
As much as I dislike in-house counsel, and have found them to be ridiculously risk-averse, employer-biased (vs. employee rights, etc.), negative in nature and generally overwhelmingly cautious and a PITA, they're not *always* wrong. Non-corporate GA *is* significantly more dangerous than commercial flight, and considerably more than automotive transportation (although it's a never-ending debate about how they're measured differently).
Not everyone works for themselves or some small company that doesn't have counsel to tell them they can't take the risk. Bully for them. It doesn't mean that there was or is some giant market of would-be pilots who would go out and buy a half million dollar new 172 if only their company would let them fly it to meetings. Or spend years building their own plane if only...
Not everyone works for themselves or some small company that doesn't have counsel to tell them they can't take the risk. Bully for them. It doesn't mean that there was or is some giant market of would-be pilots who would go out and buy a half million dollar new 172 if only their company would let them fly it to meetings. Or spend years building their own plane if only...
no disagreement even though i don't like it. if i ran a company, there is no way that i would let my employees fly their ga planes on the job. might as well hang a sign out, please take my assets. if i ran my own business, i would absolutely fly myself around. very different risk profile.
Yup. No matter how you measure it - per hour, per mile, whatever - non-corporate GA is more dangerous.
Back in the..... well a while ago when I was still in the USAF - I was working on a Weapons project where I had regular TDYs (Temporary Duty) down at Eglin AFB in Ft Walton Beach. FL. Usually only a couple of days at a time, some a week. After a couple of trips on Delta and ASA (aka Always Stuck in Atlanta) - I inquired if I could fly myself down there from Eastern NC where I was stationed. The short answer was YES, as long as the rental and fuel didn't exceed the airline fare. Or at least that was the most they were going to reimburse. So I rented a Piper Arrow and did several trips down there and back - all on the Gov'ts dime. It was awesome.
As far as why GA is dying (if it really is) - a group of us were having a discussion at breakfast this AM after flying there (3x RVs). I don't think its the risk adverse, liability minded GA pilots not flying YE's that are killing it. Its urban airports around the country (like mine) that are more interested in selling Jet fuel and hyper-inflated landing fees to the corporate jet crowd than taking care of their GA base.
There is a big brouhaha here about the airport manager denying hangar lease renewals to the smaller GA crowd with T-hangers and Sun shades so they can push them out and tear down the hangers to make more parking for the big jets that fly in for the $pecial event$. They even want to extend the runway to get even bigger jets in like the Boeing BBJ class stuff. Nevermind that the airport manager is/was on the board of the same company that had the exclusive jet fuel contract. So needless to say this is all in litigation at the moment.
But as far as what's killing GA - its "stuff" like this that killing it. Its gotten so bad that a lot of people just want to throw up hands and walk away from GA totally. Which is the entire goal of the powers that be. GA is NOT where the $$ are at for some of these airports/FBOs.
There is a big brouhaha here about the airport manager denying hangar lease renewals to the smaller GA crowd with T-hangers and Sun shades so they can push them out and tear down the hangers to make more parking for the big jets that fly in for the $pecial event$. They even want to extend the runway to get even bigger jets in like the Boeing BBJ class stuff. Nevermind that the airport manager is/was on the board of the same company that had the exclusive jet fuel contract. So needless to say this is all in litigation at the moment.
But as far as what's killing GA - its "stuff" like this that killing it. Its gotten so bad that a lot of people just want to throw up hands and walk away from GA totally. Which is the entire goal of the powers that be. GA is NOT where the $$ are at for some of these airports/FBOs.
West Coast TDY was the same: awesome until a busybody took it on themselves to whisper "unsafe" in the CO's ear, then it wasn't.
Wow! If I didn't know better, I would say you must be talking about Northern Colorado Regional (FNL). Very similar situation.
Because the government self-insures. Bit different for government contractors. Still sounds awesome, though...I'm jealous
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I agree completely. I don't think it's fear of liability on the part of GA pilots...I think it's the fact of that liability that's killing GA. That liability and its resultant cost is baked into every insurance policy, every certified airplane mfgr, every supplier of GA aviation parts. It's the reason why Cessna/Piper/Beech and a dozen other legacy aircraft mfgrs exist today as mere fading echos of what they were in the 60's and 70's.
Is it, though? https://stats-2025.skyfareracademy.com/
