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Scared to ask, RV-10 options?

Fenderbean

Well Known Member
I have read through looking for something, I noticed the DeltaHawk peeps have reached certification and they are listing a 235Hp version and I saw a new Adept Engine that’s coming along and seems promising with 250 & 280HP options. The 280 would be nice for those higher altitudes for sure. 100LL is going to eventually go away and we desperately need newer technology.
Any thoughts on these, experiences and or lessons learned is always appreciated.
Trying to talk myself back building a 10 again. Cheers
 
If I were building a 10 I would love a diesel option. Unfortunately, it's getting a viable and relatively affordable FWF package, no matter the fuel type, that's always the ever-present hurdle. No one seems to be able to push the ball over the goal line -- lots testing and marketing, but never a score. At some point I assume someone will offer one, but the field is littered with vaporware and unrealized promises so how long does one hold out hoping a company like DeltaHawk comes through? However, I have my fingers crossed that someone will make a go of it sooner rather than later, if for no other reason than for the sake of the community.
 
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I've always been a big fan of the ADEPT engine. Lee Brinley's (GM of ADEPT) Lancair ES was the latest to fly with the engine as of July 2025, but has been quiet since. Hopeful they can become commercially viable, but they've been at it for 15 years or more now in the prototype phase....
 
Does Continental still sell the CD-230?


And there is also the SMA SR305-230, like on the 182 "JT-A" turbo-diesel. Flyer, the company in Brazil that assembles quick-build fuselages and wings for Van's... and that ASTM-certified the RV-10... developed an SMA 230 installation for the RV-10. My understanding is that they offer it as an option on factory-built certified RV-10s, but I don't know the details, you'd have to ask them. I keep telling my friend there that they really should offer a firewall-forward kit.
 
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Does Continental still sell the CD-230?


And there is also the SMA SR305-230, like on the 182 "JT-A" turbo-diesel. Flyer, the company in Brazil that assembles quick-build fuselages and wings for Van's... and that ASTM-certified the RV-10... developed an SMA 230 installation for the RV-10. My understanding is that they offer it as an option on factory-built certified RV-10s, but I don't know the details, you'd have to ask them. I keep telling my friend there that they really should offer a firewall-forward kit.
Check out Scott F’s recent post here. Scott probably has more experience with the SMA diesel on the RV-10 than anyone here in the U.S.
 
I've always been a big fan of the ADEPT engine. Lee Brinley's (GM of ADEPT) Lancair ES was the latest to fly with the engine as of July 2025, but has been quiet since. Hopeful they can become commercially viable, but they've been at it for 15 years or more now in the prototype phase....
As I recall DeltaHawk took close to double that to make it to market.
 
As I recall DeltaHawk took close to double that to make it to market.
No disrespect Mike but the DH engine is really not on the market, just a hand full of prototypes and the rest is promises and projections along with good intentions.
Building a few prototypes with today's state of the art equipment is doable but setting up a certified production line will take another gazillion dollars and always more time than anticipated.
I do hope that DH succeeds in developing a marketable engine but I hope it won't be another 20 years before they do or fold.
 
I have read through looking for something, I noticed the DeltaHawk peeps have reached certification and they are listing a 235Hp version and I saw a new Adept Engine that’s coming along and seems promising with 250 & 280HP options. The 280 would be nice for those higher altitudes for sure. 100LL is going to eventually go away and we desperately need newer technology.
Any thoughts on these, experiences and or lessons learned is always appreciated.
Trying to talk myself back building a 10 again. Cheers
People successfully run mogas in 260 hp IO-540's. Or, if you have concerns, you could drop the compression ratio from 8.5:1 to 7.5:1 to increase your comfort level. On a personal level, I don't want to be one of the first 100 adopters of any new engine. Particularly on an expensive 4 seater. If I was building a Fly Baby my story might change.
 
People successfully run mogas in 260 hp IO-540's. Or, if you have concerns, you could drop the compression ratio from 8.5:1 to 7.5:1 to increase your comfort level. On a personal level, I don't want to be one of the first 100 adopters of any new engine. Particularly on an expensive 4 seater. If I was building a Fly Baby my story might change.
I understand that, but with them getting certification on the motor is something we really havent seen with new motors. That has to count for some form of safety unless the certification process is just about money. It will be awhile since I don't even have a kit so maybe time will tell.
 
Certification is no indication that the engine will be viable in the long term. For example look into what happened with Porsche PFM. Certified but only around 80 were ever built and less than 50 were ever sold and installed on aircraft. A new aircraft engine cant be considered to be a reliable marketing success until well over 1000 engines are flying with a failure rate of less than .1 percent over their TBO. Rotax is the best recent success example.
 
Certification is no indication that the engine will be viable in the long term.
Agree. Toyota received certification for a V8. Unlike the Porsche PFM, can't think of any installed on an aircraft.
From Wikipedia:
In 1997, the US Federal Aviation Administration granted production certification for the FV2400-2TC, a twin-turbocharged airplane powerplant based on the 1UZ-FE. The 360 hp (268 kW; 365 PS) FV2400 was developed in partnership with Hamilton Standard, which provided the digital engine-control system.The goal was to produce a four-seat propeller aircraft.
 
Does Continental still sell the CD-230?


And there is also the SMA SR305-230, like on the 182 "JT-A" turbo-diesel. Flyer, the company in Brazil that assembles quick-build fuselages and wings for Van's... and that ASTM-certified the RV-10... developed an SMA 230 installation for the RV-10. My understanding is that they offer it as an option on factory-built certified RV-10s, but I don't know the details, you'd have to ask them. I keep telling my friend there that they really should offer a firewall-forward kit.
Flyer Industria is offering the SMA SR305e-230 diesel in their "certified" RV10. Check out this vid from their assembly bay:
. Two of the aircraft in final assembly are equipped with SMA diesels. I also hope they'll offer some kind of FWF kit.

I have built an experimental C180 with the same engine (SMA SR305e), and have had excellent service from it. I now have almost 400 hours of trouble-free flying. It has been very efficient, smooth, and reliable so far. Roder Group in Germany took over SMA and have been good to work with. A few things I like: Easy starts - no hot or cold starts. it starts immediately every time, like your car. Efficient - constantly 30% better fuel economy than the same avgas plane. Safety - Jet A is much less likely to explode or catch fire in the event of a crash, plus exhaust fumes wont kill you like gas engine fumes will. Simple: one-lever controls. Electronic with mechanical backup. If you lose all electrical power, no problemo.

My point is that the technology exists for very functional modern diesel aircraft engines. I have over 1600 hours flying behind aerodiesel engines in experimental aircraft over 18 years and will not go back to avgas, although I have nothing against "traditional" engines.

Don't let the 230 hp (SMA and Deltahawk) number scare you off. Remember, these engines are turbocharged and and make full power at high altitudes. In every case, my experience has been that a diesel with substantially lower hp will perform as well as a higher hp gasoline counterpart. For example, the Glasair Sportsman with CD155 diesel performs as well as its 180 hp Lyc counterpart in most flight regimes. Now that I have the C180 with 230 hp diesel, I can verify that it easily out-performs its 230 hp O470 counterpart in every respect.

I still believe Jet A piston is the best way forward in the long haul (don't shoot me down; it's just my opinion). It seems to solve many of the current issues, including leaded avgas and military goals. The technology exists, and works well. Diesel technology was moving along quite nicely until the electric airplane fad (once again, my opinion) came along. Millions, if not billions, of investor dollars have been wasted on that pipe dream. Hopefully more dollars will be routed back to more realistic and achievable goals.

Kurt Goodfellow
 
I’m wishing Delta Hawk success.

My first engagement with Delta Hawk was 1999 (and I still have the T shirt). At that point the distance to the goal line far exceeded the money they had on hand. The people now running it have wrapped the business with sound processes, achieving measurable milestones along the way. The use of Jet A and the power to weight aspect of this engine is now the market high water mark. The fact that it has, and will continue to take a lot of time provides confidence in the company being here for the long haul. It also translates to more years before they are a big player for RVs.

The other Achilles heel on the Delta Hawk (and other compression ignition engines) is having a compatible prop (the diesel pulses are the issue) I understand they now have a high end composite prop so long term flight testing will tell the tale.

For me, I ordered my new Thunderbolt CAS IO-540 with normal 8.5 compression to have the option or running 93 octane mogas. The 100UL options will eventually get here, but I predict it will be a rocky road, and I suspect the cost of this new novelty fuel will be more than the current high price of 100LL.

Carl
 
By the time I'm ready for an engine on my RV-10 build, Deltahawk will have either taken over the market, or gone out of business :). For those worried about 'only' 235hp in an RV-10, remember it makes 235hp up to 17 or 18 thousand feet. Over around 3,000ft Density Altitude, the 235hp will be making more hp than a 260hp IO-540.

Mark
 
Good news is I have a FEW years so maybe one of the above will get to that point. I plane for cross country since friends in CO, WA, NY and FL so getting high and fast is a must for me.

OK so where did this SMA come from that looks like a viable option and currently flying.....anyone?
 
Good news is I have a FEW years so maybe one of the above will get to that point. I plane for cross country since friends in CO, WA, NY and FL so getting high and fast is a must for me.

OK so where did this SMA come from that looks like a viable option and currently flying.....anyone?
Not sure what Flyer has done differently, but Scott Flandermeyer terminated his long term RV-10 SMA diesel project recently due to harmonics destroying the prop.

 
Not sure what Flyer has done differently, but Scott Flandermeyer terminated his long term RV-10 SMA diesel project recently due to harmonics destroying the prop.

I have had many discussions with Scott about the unfortunate harmonics issues he experienced. He truly gave it his very best trying to solve it. As he notes, It's not a problem in the 182's (which is basically what I have). That would indicate it's not necessarily a problem with the engine itself. It could have been his airframe installation. I'm not sure we'll ever know. Flyer in Brazil has made several, and they continue pressing forward. So I have to assume the SMA is working well for them. They are using Hartzell propellers rather than MT; not sure if that makes a difference or not.

Kurt
 
I have had many discussions with Scott about the unfortunate harmonics issues he experienced. He truly gave it his very best trying to solve it. As he notes, It's not a problem in the 182's (which is basically what I have). That would indicate it's not necessarily a problem with the engine itself. It could have been his airframe installation. I'm not sure we'll ever know. Flyer in Brazil has made several, and they continue pressing forward. So I have to assume the SMA is working well for them. They are using Hartzell propellers rather than MT; not sure if that makes a difference or not.

Kurt

Yeah I saw that in a search that he stopped due to prop cracks, maybe someone with one from Brazil will comment.
 
I have always wondered if a small turbine is a better Jet A option. It certainly wouldn't have a lot of the issues seen with diesels. There is no reason an Allison 250 wouldn't be reliable and perform very well. However the fuel burn would be quite high, purchase cost astronomical, and there would be other weird caveats (life limited by start cycles as well as hours, best fuel economy only at very high altitudes, etc).

One thing I have wondered about for these companies with such protracted development cycles is "are they actually trying to bring the engine to the market, or is this another pipe dream that they are using to progressively milk money from investors."

The fact that Austro and Continental actually have functional diesel engines installed in aircraft is quite remarkable.
 
Turbine would be awesome they are just not moving fast enough and suffering from the same funding and pace as they all do.
 
Turbine would be awesome

Indeed:


 
I’m keeping an eye on turbotech aero for the smaller RV’s. I have at least 5 more years (🤞) before I’m in need of an overhaul on my existing Lycoming, and can run 93 octane mogas (though UL94 is more appealing, tested to higher standards than auto fuel) when 100LL disappears in 2030, but the thought of a small, reasonably fuel efficient turbine is very appealing. Smooth power is a good match for our lighter weight RV’s. If they scale up and build one in the 250hp range with similar fuel burn to today’s lycomings/continentals, that is pretty appealing for the 10.

On the delta hawk diesel and Yamaha front, I wish both well but like others have said, need 100 out there flying and building time unless you want to be a test pilot.

Would love to know more about the SMA from Brazil if it exists!
 
It definitely exists, but before you get too enamored about it - check out post 5 above and especially the link to Scott’s pirep on his experience with the SMA diesel.
I've read all of that, but how the Brazilian folks are (maybe) making it work is of more interest. I also fully understand the harmonic coupling issues that can appear with this sort of change; the C180/182 fuselage is pretty different than an RV fuselage.
 
RR250B17F….just sayin.
I suspect you have to sign a contract with RR for say 10 engines to order them at a price point that is remotely palatable, or accept some other concessions (used with unknown history). But it would be an interesting conversation for someone with a 'factory' to have...
 
I've read all of that, but how the Brazilian folks are (maybe) making it work is of more interest. I also fully understand the harmonic coupling issues that can appear with this sort of change; the C180/182 fuselage is pretty different than an RV fuselage.
Suggest you reach out to @Flandy10 and have a chat with him. He is very familiar with what Flyer is doing and can share his thoughts with you.
 
If they scale up and build one in the 250hp range with similar fuel burn to today’s lycomings/continentals,
If wishes was fishes....

Basic thermodynamics says you won't find a small turbine in the same power range as a piston engine with anywhere near the same fuel burn. 2X, sure no problem. 1.5X seems to get promised a lot but I haven't seen it delivered anywhere yet. You won't find 1X anywhere but glossy paper from a salesman.

People don't build or buy turbines for fuel efficiency. They build them (and buy them) because you can pack a lot of power in a small lightweight package - but efficiency (comparable to a piston) is not even in the same room with those packages.
 
If wishes was fishes....

Basic thermodynamics says you won't find a small turbine in the same power range as a piston engine with anywhere near the same fuel burn. 2X, sure no problem. 1.5X seems to get promised a lot but I haven't seen it delivered anywhere yet. You won't find 1X anywhere but glossy paper from a salesman.

People don't build or buy turbines for fuel efficiency. They build them (and buy them) because you can pack a lot of power in a small lightweight package - but efficiency (comparable to a piston) is not even in the same room with those packages.

Amen!
 
People don't build or buy turbines for fuel efficiency. They build them (and buy them) because you can pack a lot of power in a small lightweight package - but efficiency (comparable to a piston) is not even in the same room with those packages.

Everything I have read it was actually more about reliability than anything else. Eventually we have gotten to the point that there is no practical turbofan which could be matched by a piston airplane. But was always reliability that made the switch for commercial airline travel. And was back ported from there into other aviation segments.

The military wanted power, which was the driver there. But turbines would never had commercial success without addressing the major weakness of high MX and reliability that piston engines have.

Tim
 
Everything I have read it was actually more about reliability than anything else. Eventually we have gotten to the point that there is no practical turbofan which could be matched by a piston airplane. But was always reliability that made the switch for commercial airline travel. And was back ported from there into other aviation segments.

The military wanted power, which was the driver there. But turbines would never had commercial success without addressing the major weakness of high MX and reliability that piston engines have.

Tim
I believe it is more than reliability. For commercial applications, jet engines are efficient up high and piston engines can't go there, at least without huge over powered engines. From what I read, passengers hated cruising around at 8-10K in a DC-3 due to the turbulence. Turbines are a good compromise; enough power for TO and climb and relatively efficient at 30K.
 
I believe it is more than reliability. For commercial applications, jet engines are efficient up high and piston engines can't go there, at least without huge over powered engines. From what I read, passengers hated cruising around at 8-10K in a DC-3 due to the turbulence. Turbines are a good compromise; enough power for TO and climb and relatively efficient at 30K.

In WW2, we had piston engine airplanes that flew that high on a regular basis. e.g. the Spitfire.
The limitation on the DC3 was not the engines, it was the lack of cabin pressure.

Tim
 
In WW2, we had piston engine airplanes that flew that high on a regular basis. e.g. the Spitfire.
The limitation on the DC3 was not the engines, it was the lack of cabin pressure.

Tim
TBO, reliability + maintenance are big factors with high performance / high alt piston engines.
 
Pistons absolutely can go up there, and go fast - but that requires some tricks with turbo and superchargers, large displacement, sometimes gearboxes. All those things come with maintenance and reliability costs. Turbines solved that for the airlines and added a few more tricks - but at the cost of fuel efficiency. It was a trade that the airlines gladly accepted. The military never even included efficiency (fuel or dollar or manpower - any of it) in any of their calculus, it just had to work.
 
It’s honestly hard to beat a turbine for weight. My RR250C20B weighs 190lbs and produces 420 hp.
They like fuel, but it used to be that Jet A , JP4 , JP-8, so… cheaper, regardless of gph.

They have plenty of drawbacks, like… you are $200k poorer if you hot start badly and don’t abort the start within parameters…

They are also more limited between torque and temp limits, being moving targets based on the outside temp and Density Altitude…

I don’t think there’s any one reason in whole for the prevalence of one or the other… just part of the progression of technology. For the light helicopter market,they’re a god send.
 
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