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Considering a new prop

M

Martinejim

Active Member
I’ve decided to replace the Whirl Wind 151 CS prop on my RV9. It needs to be repaired/overhauled and the only two places that can do it are no where near where I live in Charlotte NC. The prop is aging and will likely require more maintenance in the future. And when I talked to Whirl Wind they aren’t sure how long they’ll have parts available. So, rather than deal with that hassle I think I’d be better off biting the bullet and getting a new prop. I’m leaning towards Hartzell because there are several service shops near me, but not sure if MT is better.

I have an IO-320-D1A engine and definitely want a 3 blade.

Thoughts or suggestions on which way to go?

Thanks.
 
Not to second guess your decision, rather, just adding 2 cents:
I bet the majority of props serviced are shipped. If I asked around our local patch I could find a couple of 2 blade crates and at least one 3 blade crate.
If you overhaul the prop now while parts are available you can likely fly for a long time before giving it another thought. Most props stay on planes for decades…
 
I have also owned both MT and Hartzell. Composite props on Lycoming engines is the ONLY way to go...they really tame vibration and do not have restricted RPM ranges like metal props do. Get one with the latest nickel leading edges and you will never have to worry about any damage regardless of where you operate. Composite will cost more than metal, but I am also one who recognizes the added attention to quality that has a price tag like SnapOn tools and Mercedes autos.
 
I replaced our 151 with a WW-300 on the RV-3 a few years ago when Jim Rust (founder of Whirlwind, and owner before selling to Hartzell) told me that even HE didn’t have any parts anymore. The -300 is a little heavier (a couple of pounds) but performance is excellent, and we’ve had no problems with grease leaks like we had with the -15. I haven’t seen the prices on the Whirlwinds since the acquisition, but it woudl be worth getting a quote to se. When I tested the WW-300 against the Hartzell 3-blade composite with scimitar blades, the performance was as close to identical as you could get. Since both should be backed by Hartzell now, I’d think that this is a good place to look at price.

Paul
 
I'm looking at the same thing right now. My WW-151 is coming due for it's 5 year maintenance.

Last summer I spoke with a few shops that WW recommend. One said that they could source the seals, so if that was all that needed to be replaced they could do the work. Can't remember which shop said the could source the seals, and I can't find those notes at the moment. The two shops that I have the contact info are:

- Mark S at Redline Aviation 303-709-4168
- Jay W at JDW Propeller Service - 440-417-5366
 
Good thread as I am this close to pulling the trigger. IO-390 exp 119 on RV8 with Showplanes Mods. I have a Hartzell aerobatic prop now which is a good prop, I have no issues with it other than weight and it's AD. I am leaning on the Hartzell (Carbon Fiber Core) 75CS08 I can use my Hartzell 15" spinner (that I already have) the other option is MT (wood core) more expensive and I'll need a new 15" spinner, I will of course need a new governor for either one. Tell me if this is the way to go or not. Big Beautiful Bill helped with the funding.
 
Ironflight said:
I replaced our 151 with a WW-300 on the RV-3 a few years ago when Jim Rust (founder of Whirlwind, and owner before selling to Hartzell) told me that even HE didn’t have any parts anymore. The -300 is a little heavier (a couple of pounds) but performance is excellent, and we’ve had no problems with grease leaks like we had with the -15. I haven’t seen the prices on the Whirlwinds since the acquisition, but it woudl be worth getting a quote to se. When I tested the WW-300 against the Hartzell 3-blade composite with scimitar blades, the performance was as close to identical as you could get. Since both should be backed by Hartzell now, I’d think that this is a good place to look at price.

Paul
Click to expand...
+1 to the WW-300. I've been flying with it on my RV-8 for about 5 months now and LOVE IT!! Super smooth, climbs like a Banshee and I'm not noticing any speed loss in cruise compared to my Metal 2 blade Hartzell.
 
After discovering the cost to overhaul the prop that came w my -10 kit (a Hoffman) at 13k I’ll be buying a new WW300 when the need arises. That said Jay at JDW overhauled my 151H prop that I put on my -9 a couple of years ago.
 
Prof D said:
I'm looking at the same thing right now. My WW-151 is coming due for it's 5 year maintenance.

Last summer I spoke with a few shops that WW recommend. One said that they could source the seals, so if that was all that needed to be replaced they could do the work. Can't remember which shop said the could source the seals, and I can't find those notes at the moment. The two shops that I have the contact info are:

- Mark S at Redline Aviation 303-709-4168
- Jay W at JDW Propeller Service - 440-417-5366
Click to expand...

Ironflight said:
I replaced our 151 with a WW-300 on the RV-3 a few years ago when Jim Rust (founder of Whirlwind, and owner before selling to Hartzell) told me that even HE didn’t have any parts anymore. The -300 is a little heavier (a couple of pounds) but performance is excellent, and we’ve had no problems with grease leaks like we had with the -15. I haven’t seen the prices on the Whirlwinds since the acquisition, but it woudl be worth getting a quote to se. When I tested the WW-300 against the Hartzell 3-blade composite with scimitar blades, the performance was as close to identical as you could get. Since both should be backed by Hartzell now, I’d think that this is a good place to look at price.

Paul
Click to expand...
Paul - thanks for the reply and info. Were you able to confirm whether Hartzell can service the 300 series WW props? I need someone close to me for service. Ohio and California are too far away.
 
edhunter said:
After discovering the cost to overhaul the prop that came w my -10 kit (a Hoffman) at 13k I’ll be buying a new WW300 when the need arises. That said Jay at JDW overhauled my 151H prop that I put on my -9 a couple of years ago.
Click to expand...
Yeah - JDW did respond and said that if the blade seals are serviceable on the 151 he could repair it and get me back in the air. However, he’s in OH and I’m in NC. There’s no easy way for me to get the prop to him or to get it back. Shipping is expensive.
Rodo1fo said:
Without the governor. For the governor, it is necessary to add 1900.
Click to expand...
Any idea if I went with the 300 WW if my existing governor is compatible?
 
Taltruda said:
The MT prop is probably 10 knots slower.. smooth but slow.
Click to expand...
There are many models and blade styles of all props. The MT Prop model I used did not have that result. I also refer to the CAFE report on the RV-9a that resulted in speeds most of us dream for.
 
andoman said:
Not to second guess your decision, rather, just adding 2 cents:
I bet the majority of props serviced are shipped. If I asked around our local patch I could find a couple of 2 blade crates and at least one 3 blade crate.
If you overhaul the prop now while parts are available you can likely fly for a long time before giving it another thought. Most props stay on planes for decades…
Click to expand...
Worth checking around for an existing crate. Thanks for the suggestion.
 
Martinejim said:
Paul - thanks for the reply and info. Were you able to confirm whether Hartzell can service the 300 series WW props? I need someone close to me for service. Ohio and California are too far away.
Click to expand...
I honestly don’t know what the service situation is for the WW’s since Hartzell bought them. They’ve had a couple of years now, so I’d think they’d have it figured out since they are making and selling them - but you’d have to call Hartzell. On the governor question you asked - I kept the same governor on our engine when I changed from the -151 to the -300 and have had no issues.
 
We have a 14A with the Hartzell aluminum prop currently. We flew formation down to SNF last week and a friend with an 8 has the WW prop and I was following him in trail on the arrival. Can't tell you how many times I came screaming up behind him because the slowing/stopping advantage of the WW prop he has. Out of curiosity I talked with Hartzell at the show and they said the Hartzell composite prop is $24k since it's built to TSO specs...it's not TSO'd but built to those specs. The WW prop is $15k. I'm interested in possibly going composite for weight and vibration and mostly the ability to slow quicker when flying formation but don't want to lose any cruise performance. Our engine is the YIO390 - 210hp. I know the climb performance would be better because the width of that prop is going to get more bite. Does anyone have a comparison on performance between the aluminum Hartzell and the composite WW?
 
BloomerJohn said:
There are many models and blade styles of all props. The MT Prop model I used did not have that result. I also refer to the CAFE report on the RV-9a that resulted in speeds most of us dream for.
Click to expand...
What plane and speeds do you see? Where’s a link to that CAFE report? Every MT equipt RV that I’ve flown was 10+ knots slower than a similar non MT plane.. plus others that shared their similar experience.
 
Taltruda said:
What plane and speeds do you see? Where’s a link to that CAFE report? Every MT equipt RV that I’ve flown was 10+ knots slower than a similar non MT plane.. plus others that shared their similar experience.
Click to expand...
I lost about 5 knots going from BA to MTV-9, but better climb, quieter and smoother,
Another advantage is can actually slow RPM to 2100 if I want with no ill effects, just a smooth at 2100 as 2400.
 
Jparrish1 said:
We have a 14A with the Hartzell aluminum prop currently. We flew formation down to SNF last week and a friend with an 8 has the WW prop and I was following him in trail on the arrival. Can't tell you how many times I came screaming up behind him because the slowing/stopping advantage of the WW prop he has. Out of curiosity I talked with Hartzell at the show and they said the Hartzell composite prop is $24k since it's built to TSO specs...it's not TSO'd but built to those specs. The WW prop is $15k. I'm interested in possibly going composite for weight and vibration and mostly the ability to slow quicker when flying formation but don't want to lose any cruise performance. Our engine is the YIO390 - 210hp. I know the climb performance would be better because the width of that prop is going to get more bite. Does anyone have a comparison on performance between the aluminum Hartzell and the composite WW?
Click to expand...
I don't have a comparison on performance, but I can tell you that the $24k for the Hartzell does NOT include the spinner. That's another $3,395. And if you need to swap the prop governor, that's another $4,980. So, if you need the prop, the spinner, and the governor, you are well over $30k. And that's not even including shipping and mounting!! After getting that quote, I'm definitely going with the WW 300 series. Oh, and Hartzell will service/repair the 300 series props.
 
Last edited:
Walt said:
I lost about 5 knots going from BA to MTV-9, but better climb, quieter and smoother,
Another advantage is can actually slow RPM to 2100 if I want with no ill effects, just a smooth at 2100 as 2400.
Click to expand...
Yes I’ve noticed a similar effect that it’s super smooth, and you can reduce RPM way back (I experimented with 2700 down to 2200rpm) with no loss in speed.. I assumed because it’s always slow, there wasn’t any speed GAINED by increasing RPM..
 
Prof D said:
I'm looking at the same thing right now. My WW-151 is coming due for it's 5 year maintenance.

Last summer I spoke with a few shops that WW recommend. One said that they could source the seals, so if that was all that needed to be replaced they could do the work. Can't remember which shop said the could source the seals, and I can't find those notes at the moment. The two shops that I have the contact info are:

- Mark S at Redline Aviation 303-709-4168
- Jay W at JDW Propeller Service - 440-417-5366
Click to expand...
I will say that I left a voicemail for JDW late last week and Jay called me back first thing this morning. Very nice gentleman and knowledgeable. However, he confirmed what I heard from Whirl Wind last week about parts availability for the 151 series. He said he'd have to tear it down to determine the damage and then from there see if he had the parts to repair. So, while I appreciated the quick response, that would facilitate pulling the prop, crating it, shipping it to OH, and then hoping he has the parts to repair it. If not, then I'd be left having to order a new one anyway. After all of that effort I could just order a new prop and likely get it back close to the same time. And that's exactly what I Just did today...ordered a 300 series CS 72" prop. Hoping to get it in 6-8 weeks...fingers crossed.
 
Taltruda said:
What plane and speeds do you see? Where’s a link to that CAFE report? Every MT equipt RV that I’ve flown was 10+ knots slower than a similar non MT plane.. plus others that shared their similar experience.
Click to expand...
Here is a copy of the CAFE report on the RV9a with MT 3B composite prop. I wish I could get these speeds with my FP :)
John
 

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Martinejim said:
I will say that I left a voicemail for JDW late last week and Jay called me back first thing this morning. Very nice gentleman and knowledgeable. However, he confirmed what I heard from Whirl Wind last week about parts availability for the 151 series. He said he'd have to tear it down to determine the damage and then from there see if he had the parts to repair. So, while I appreciated the quick response, that would facilitate pulling the prop, crating it, shipping it to OH, and then hoping he has the parts to repair it. If not, then I'd be left having to order a new one anyway. After all of that effort I could just order a new prop and likely get it back close to the same time. And that's exactly what I Just did today...ordered a 300 series CS 72" prop. Hoping to get it in 6-8 weeks...fingers crossed.
Click to expand...
Hope the 300 works great for you, and thanks for confirming Hartzell will do maintenance on it!

Would you mind reporting back how the prop compares to the 151 when you get some time on it?
 
Martinejim said:
I’ve decided to replace the Whirl Wind 151 CS prop on my RV9. It needs to be repaired/overhauled and the only two places that can do it are no where near where I live in Charlotte NC. The prop is aging and will likely require more maintenance in the future. And when I talked to Whirl Wind they aren’t sure how long they’ll have parts available. So, rather than deal with that hassle I think I’d be better off biting the bullet and getting a new prop. I’m leaning towards Hartzell because there are several service shops near me, but not sure if MT is better.

I have an IO-320-D1A engine and definitely want a 3 blade.

Thoughts or suggestions on which way to go?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
Hi Matin
Not sure where in NC you are, I'm at 14a.
Have you spoken to H&H in Burlington? (KBUY) I have used them for my needs, and my little props are usually the least interesting ones they are working on. Very good guys in my experience and great work, and they are local.

John
 
johntwilcox said:
Hi Matin
Not sure where in NC you are, I'm at 14a.
Have you spoken to H&H in Burlington? (KBUY) I have used them for my needs, and my little props are usually the least interesting ones they are working on. Very good guys in my experience and great work, and they are local.

John
Click to expand...
Yes sir...one of the first shops I called. They don't have the equipment to service the 151 series prop. They said they can service "some" of the 200 series and all of the 300, but the 15X is too old.
 
Prof D said:
Hope the 300 works great for you, and thanks for confirming Hartzell will do maintenance on it!

Would you mind reporting back how the prop compares to the 151 when you get some time on it?
Click to expand...
Absolutely! I'll make myself a note to circle back to this thread after it's been mounted and I've had some time flying behind it.
 
Martinejim said:
I don't have a comparison on performance, but I can tell you that the $24k for the Hartzell does NOT include the spinner. That's another $3,395. And if you need to swap the prop governor, that's another $4,980. So, if you need the prop, the spinner, and the governor, you are well over $30k. And that's not even including shipping and mounting!! After getting that quote, I'm definitely going with the WW 300 series. Oh, and Hartzell will service/repair the 300 series props.
Click to expand...
Yikes! Yeh that's getting on up there. I do like Hartzell but that cost difference would be hard to stomach.
 
Ironflight said:
I replaced our 151 with a WW-300 on the RV-3 a few years ago when Jim Rust (founder of Whirlwind, and owner before selling to Hartzell) told me that even HE didn’t have any parts anymore. The -300 is a little heavier (a couple of pounds) but performance is excellent, and we’ve had no problems with grease leaks like we had with the -15. I haven’t seen the prices on the Whirlwinds since the acquisition, but it woudl be worth getting a quote to se. When I tested the WW-300 against the Hartzell 3-blade composite with scimitar blades, the performance was as close to identical as you could get. Since both should be backed by Hartzell now, I’d think that this is a good place to look at price.

Paul
Click to expand...
Paul - just curious. Did you have to do anything special or modifications to the 300 series when you swapped it out for the 151 or was it pretty much a direct bolt on replacement?
 
Martinejim said:
Paul - just curious. Did you have to do anything special or modifications to the 300 series when you swapped it out for the 151 or was it pretty much a direct bolt on replacement?
Click to expand...
Piece of cake - I flew down to Gillespie Field (where WW was located), rolled the airplane into the hangar, we took off the -151 (didn’t even take the spinner off), bolted on the -300 (the spinner was already installed), and flew off two hours after coming in. Couldn’t get more “bolt on”….😁
 
What engine is on the OP’s RV-10?
I didn’t think the 300 series is rated for the 540. Else I would bolt one on my Rocket. Am i missing something? Should I quit waiting for my Hartzell composite 2 blade and bolt on a WW-300 3 blade? Save $15K and a few lbs to boot?
 
andoman said:
What engine is on the OP’s RV-10?
I didn’t think the 300 series is rated for the 540. Else I would bolt one on my Rocket. Am i missing something? Should I quit waiting for my Hartzell composite 2 blade and bolt on a WW-300 3 blade? Save $15K and a few lbs to boot?
Click to expand...
I’m the OP. This prop is going on a RV9 with an O-320. But they do make a 300 series for the IO-540. You will need a larger diameter prop so I will likely cost a bit more but I’d bet it will be way less than the Hartzell.
 
Martinejim said:
I’m the OP. This prop is going on a RV9 with an O-320. But they do make a 300 series for the IO-540. You will need a larger diameter prop so I will likely cost a bit more but I’d bet it will be way less than the Hartzell.
Click to expand...
I got confused. Should have directed my comment at rodo1fo above.
 
Turbo, the Duc has some compelling arguments for (weight and cost). How much experience does the RV community have with them? Anyone know the maintenance network for their props?
 
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