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Smoke System

olyolson

olyolson

Well Known Member
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I have a Smoke System Helper 4 gallon aluminum tank in the deep well of the forward baggage area of my RV-8. It has been working well but last year after a spilt second of inattention it overfilled and caused a bit of a mess that took a while to clean up after removing the tank. It would have been helpful to have a clear tank like the Smoking Airplane kits so I can always see the smoke oil level. I already have a good pump and all the plumbing so would like to remove the aluminum tank and replace it with a transparent plastic tank and use the rest of my installed parts. I want to keep it in the deep well on the right side so I still have the large fwd baggage area available. I sent an e-mail to Smoking Airplanes so I’m sure I’ll hear from them this coming week but curious if anyone has already done this. Ideally I’d like to just swap the tank and hookup to my existing system.
 

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With the caveat that I'm not flying yet, I shamelessly stole an idea from one of the guys at FFC and got a float style mechanical gas gauge from some kind of small gas tool (a generator or lawnmower or something) and prosealed it into the top of my smoke tank. It's not direct transparency but it should give some kind of useful indication. Hopefully in the next year we'll see how well it works ...
 
rmartingt said:
With the caveat that I'm not flying yet, I shamelessly stole an idea from one of the guys at FFC and got a float style mechanical gas gauge from some kind of small gas tool (a generator or lawnmower or something) and prosealed it into the top of my smoke tank. It's not direct transparency but it should give some kind of useful indication. Hopefully in the next year we'll see how well it works ...
Click to expand...
Picture of this float installed?
 
That’s a pretty good idea since you could mark the gauge at the correct fill level the first time you fill it and not have to guess looking down into the tank. If you had a picture and a link for the gauge that would help. This forum is worth every penny!
 
What I got is something like this:
51T4F+dg6ML._AC_SL1500_.jpg


I don't have a link for the exact one though. I just cut a hole in the top of the tank, carefully cleaned all the swarf, and prosealed it in. I can try to get an installed pic next time I'm out in the shop.
 
That is one of the benefits of a fiberglass tank. I rolled my own system and added a spill well / lip and a very large filler cap. That way you can see better when filling, and any spills are contained and easily wiped up. An in-tank pump keeps the install very clean. Just two wires and one hose to a firewall distribution block. Works great. A few bolts and it lifts out if you need the space. I'm now making a second, slightly improved version that incorporates a sloped bottom to match the 8 baggage well slope. More distractions from my new 8 build!
 

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FL-Mike,
I love it! That is a perfectly designed system with everything thought out very well. So fiberglass holds up well to smoke oil? Well done
 
Here's my solution for RV8 El Zun Zun. I will build a second for my new to me RV14 . . . .
 

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fl-mike said:
That is one of the benefits of a fiberglass tank. I rolled my own system and added a spill well / lip and a very large filler cap. That way you can see better when filling, and any spills are contained and easily wiped up. An in-tank pump keeps the install very clean. Just two wires and one hose to a firewall distribution block. Works great. A few bolts and it lifts out if you need the space. I'm now making a second, slightly improved version that incorporates a sloped bottom to match the 8 baggage well slope. More distractions from my new 8 build!
Click to expand...
Fantastic!!! Thinking here: glue some foam together, shape that, layup fiberglass, remove foam mold/core through access hole! Nice.
Question: any concern for oil compatibility? Did you coat or line the inside with anything?
Love the top side flange bit! Multipurpose!
Kudos.
 
Lucmac said:
The reviews on every one of these I could find are riddled with don’t waste your $ recommendations because of some type of severe defect. Do you have a link to the one you have and how long has yours been working?
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Like I stated before up-thread... I don't have a link to the exact one because I didn't buy it (it was gifted to me), and I'm not even flying yet. It's been working great sitting there indicating "empty" though ;)
 
ksdflying said:
Fantastic!!! Thinking here: glue some foam together, shape that, layup fiberglass, remove foam mold/core through access hole! Nice.
Question: any concern for oil compatibility? Did you coat or line the inside with anything?
Love the top side flange bit! Multipurpose!
Kudos.
Click to expand...
Right. I glued some foam up, radiused the edges, covered it with some Monokote(!) I had laying around to give it a slick surface, waxed it, and layed up the glass and epoxy resin. Took a little work to pull it off the form, but this photo is actually the second pass after some minor form repairs. If you don't care about saving the form, no problem! You could also do a female form. The top is just a flat panel trimmed to fit and setting on some little glass tabs to position it. Same for the baffle. Layed those up on a piece of window glass.
No issues with the oil. Boaters have been building tanks out of glass for ages, and smoke oil is pretty mild stuff. There is a baffle in the tank to reinforce the sidewalls otherwise they will bow out. I'm a total glass hack. I'm sure Dan could make something much prettier, but mine gets the job done. If you have the Bingelis books and some thin core material, you could also panel one up like in his book chapter on building fiberglass fuel tanks.
 

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fl-mike said:
That is one of the benefits of a fiberglass tank. I rolled my own system and added a spill well / lip and a very large filler cap. That way you can see better when filling, and any spills are contained and easily wiped up. An in-tank pump keeps the install very clean. Just two wires and one hose to a firewall distribution block. Works great. A few bolts and it lifts out if you need the space. I'm now making a second, slightly improved version that incorporates a sloped bottom to match the 8 baggage well slope. More distractions from my new 8 build!
Click to expand...

Nicely done Mike. Can you share what in-tank pump you’re using. There are many for fuel systems available, but I’m not sure how well they’ll work with smoke oil. How about nozzle sizes in the exhaust pipes? Working pressure?
 
Perhaps more reliable than a mechanical gauge, and slightly more complicated than having a see-thru tank: A pair of 90º elbow fittings and a length of plastic tubing gives me a sight gauge.

(not my idea, but I'm glad it's there)

- mark



1713852360326.png
 
Anyone know what's going on with Smoke System Helper? I ordered a kit for my RV-8 back in Dec and cant seem to get a response.
 
Xmxer13 said:
Anyone know what's going on with Smoke System Helper? I ordered a kit for my RV-8 back in Dec and cant seem to get a response.
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Posted March 31, 2024
Jim Wolc said:
Greetings smoke system customers.......Jim Wolc here owner of smoke system helper.......so a quick health update to explain our position and the delays some of you are experiencing.....as some of you know i had developed a problem with my back before thanksgiving and was and am still having difficulty in filling kits as sitting upright in a chair causes great pain...1st visit is a chiropractor......he won't touch me without a MRI....he looks at the pictures and sends me to a back surgeon as he believes i have a bone growing into my spine that is causing the pain paralysis and neuropathy.....the back surgeon looks at the pics and sends me to an oncologist.....prostate cancer that has metastasized to my bones.....the pain as subsided somewhat or the hydrocodone is masking some of the pain but am back to filling and shipping kits....albeit slower.......now to address oleg b....he doesn't have any order with me and his purchased was refunded......things are improving and all orders will be filled just a little more patience....thanks for the patronage and the over whelming support both in phone calls and text messages.
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Based on everyone’s great suggestions I did some research and found a solution. I bought a Rochester mechanical 10” fuel gauge from JM Ellsworth company. Since I have a vented cap I put the gauge in the unused vent port on my RV-8 smoke tank. I had to remove the plug and drill out the hole to fit the gauge. The hole was drilled just big enough the make a snug fit then prosealed onto the tank. The 10” model still has some oil in the tank when it shows empty because the tank is a little over 11” tall. I wanted to make sure it fit and did not hit the bottom. When it’s full the gauge is dead on accurate just below the fill neck.

IMG_0704.jpeg

www.jmesales.com

Rochester Gauges 8681 Series Press Fit JR Top Mount Liquid Level Tank Spiral Gauges

Since 1974, JME has been a trusted distributor of petroleum equipment, loading systems, sanitary supplies, fire safety products, and industrial parts. Shop now to see why 1000s of customers have chosen us as their preferred provider.
www.jmesales.com www.jmesales.com
 
Anyone have a good injector design I can fabricate myself? I have some on order with SSH, but have a second full homebrew system sitting on my bench, waiting. I like the SSH injectors and wanted to support the company, but am getting tired of waiting. Our #4 needs smoke!
 

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fl-mike said:
Anyone have a good injector design I can fabricate myself? I have some on order with SSH, but have a second full homebrew system sitting on my bench, waiting. I like the SSH injectors and wanted to support the company, but am getting tired of waiting. Our #4 needs smoke!
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I am working on this right now actually. As soon as I figure this out and how to make them repeatedly I'll touch back.
 
Worst thing about smoke systems is spillage inside the airplane. Do like the big boys...plumb an external quick connect and an overflow vent.

There are lots of different hose quick connects available. Instead of a wobble pump, install a reversing gear pump intended for oil change duty in a marine application. Being DC , it needs only a DPDT switch wired for polarity reversal. Always install a solenoid valve at the firewall, both for safety, and so the line to the injectors will only feed when the pump is running, resulting in a nice crisp on-off supply to the hot exhaust.

The system is made self-filling by adding a tee fitting at the pump outlet, connecting the extra leg to the belly quick-connect, and wiring the solenoid valve so it does not open when the pump switch is in the reverse direction. Couple the quick-connect, hang a can under the vent, flip the switch, and it pumps its own oil straight from the drum. When it squirts out the vent, it's full.

IMG_1087.jpgExtra Smoke Oil Fill Small.jpg
 
fl-mike said:
That is one of the benefits of a fiberglass tank. I rolled my own system and added a spill well / lip and a very large filler cap. That way you can see better when filling, and any spills are contained and easily wiped up. An in-tank pump keeps the install very clean. Just two wires and one hose to a firewall distribution block. Works great. A few bolts and it lifts out if you need the space. I'm now making a second, slightly improved version that incorporates a sloped bottom to match the 8 baggage well slope. More distractions from my new 8 build!
Click to expand...
I will GLADLY pay you to make a turnkey system for my 8!!!
 
Do NOT use smoke system helper....

I ordered from them..... CC was charged.... then no shipment, unreachable by phone, email, text. Had to file a Pay Pal dispute and eventually was credited for the order. They have a great looking website and a history of good products, but something has happened and they are having problems now. DO NOT RECOMMEND!

Ss
 
sstine99 said:
Do NOT use smoke system helper....

I ordered from them..... CC was charged.... then no shipment, unreachable by phone, email, text. Had to file a Pay Pal dispute and eventually was credited for the order. They have a great looking website and a history of good products, but something has happened and they are having problems now. DO NOT RECOMMEND!

Ss
Click to expand...
Company was sold a year or so ago and new owner got sick. The archives have more info.
 
I dont know Jim Wolc-but we have made hoses for many of his customers. That said, I certainly can understand a small company with 1 or 2 employee workers and some has a serious medical situation. Happened to me in 2015. Fortunately for me Steve and I had set up the outline for Aircraft Specialty Flightlines. While I wasnt able to done much for a couple of months, Steve picked up my slack, and virtually we didnt miss a beat. Jim probably isnt in the same situation. I would hope that he can get some help with his business to keep it going. WE need small, niche companies in this industry.
 
olyolson said:
Based on everyone’s great suggestions I did some research and found a solution. I bought a Rochester mechanical 10” fuel gauge from JM Ellsworth company. Since I have a vented cap I put the gauge in the unused vent port on my RV-8 smoke tank. I had to remove the plug and drill out the hole to fit the gauge. The hole was drilled just big enough the make a snug fit then prosealed onto the tank. The 10” model still has some oil in the tank when it shows empty because the tank is a little over 11” tall. I wanted to make sure it fit and did not hit the bottom. When it’s full the gauge is dead on accurate just below the fill neck.

View attachment 63288

www.jmesales.com

Rochester Gauges 8681 Series Press Fit JR Top Mount Liquid Level Tank Spiral Gauges

Since 1974, JME has been a trusted distributor of petroleum equipment, loading systems, sanitary supplies, fire safety products, and industrial parts. Shop now to see why 1000s of customers have chosen us as their preferred provider.
www.jmesales.com www.jmesales.com
Click to expand...
olyolson said:
Based on everyone’s great suggestions I did some research and found a solution. I bought a Rochester mechanical 10” fuel gauge from JM Ellsworth company. Since I have a vented cap I put the gauge in the unused vent port on my RV-8 smoke tank. I had to remove the plug and drill out the hole to fit the gauge. The hole was drilled just big enough the make a snug fit then prosealed onto the tank. The 10” model still has some oil in the tank when it shows empty because the tank is a little over 11” tall. I wanted to make sure it fit and did not hit the bottom. When it’s full the gauge is dead on accurate just below the fill neck.

View attachment 63288

www.jmesales.com

Rochester Gauges 8681 Series Press Fit JR Top Mount Liquid Level Tank Spiral Gauges

Since 1974, JME has been a trusted distributor of petroleum equipment, loading systems, sanitary supplies, fire safety products, and industrial parts. Shop now to see why 1000s of customers have chosen us as their preferred provider.
www.jmesales.com www.jmesales.com
Click to expand...
He meant to say Dead-On Balls Accurate...
1721039693462.png
 
ksdflying said:
Same here. Its been now 6 months. It is not hard to delegate to someone nearby to communicate for you. This is maddening. Especially when money was exchanged up front, and alot of it too.
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We had to dispute the charges with our credit card. Ridiculous what this guy is doing no matter how sick. We talked briefly on the phone so he’s not so sick he can’t make his website stop taking people’s money for things that are obviously never going to ship.
 
pjc said:
Nicely done Mike. Can you share what in-tank pump you’re using. There are many for fuel systems available, but I’m not sure how well they’ll work with smoke oil. How about nozzle sizes in the exhaust pipes? Working pressure?
Click to expand...
Was this in-tank pump reference ever published?
 
fl-mike said:
No, I did not want to step on SSH business, but I've finally given up on my parts order and disputed the charges.
Here is the pump I used for my in-tank system:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08HD6HGTK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

After the sock filter and pump prime, it works just fine.

I have the rest of the parts on a spreadsheet if desired. I will be designing my own injector soon.
Click to expand...
Well, from out here in the cheap seats, it looks like you’ve played this patiently and fairly. Thanks for the link. I’ve been waiting for some action from them as well to place an order.
 
Here is a simple, cheap, effective solution to the problem of over filling smoke oil tanks. Make a dipstick for the tank just like your engine oil dipstick, use it and you will see exactly how much smoke oil you need to put in. Remember that most tanks have a FLAT TOP, that means that they SUDDENLY get full so be a little bit conservative on how much to add.
 
fl-mike said:
No, I did not want to step on SSH business, but I've finally given up on my parts order and disputed the charges.
Here is the pump I used for my in-tank system:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08HD6HGTK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

After the sock filter and pump prime, it works just fine.

I have the rest of the parts on a spreadsheet if desired. I will be designing my own injector soon.
Click to expand...

So that I don't have to reinvent the wheel, what is the best way to route the wires for the in tank pump through the tank wall that would form a seal?
 
newt said:
Perhaps more reliable than a mechanical gauge, and slightly more complicated than having a see-thru tank: A pair of 90º elbow fittings and a length of plastic tubing gives me a sight gauge.

(not my idea, but I'm glad it's there)

- mark



View attachment 61279
Click to expand...
Is that tank made of stainless steel or does it include the pump weight and something else? Almost 14 pounds EMPTY seems heavy.
 
upperdeck said:
So that I don't have to reinvent the wheel, what is the best way to route the wires for the in tank pump through the tank wall that would form a seal?
Click to expand...
I just brought them out the top plate and ProSeal'd them.
I made some injectors and have a few sets available. They won't be any cheaper than SSH because of the small quantity I had made. PM me if you have an interest. And, I made them longer than I should have. Should work fine, but after I received them I'm like: "hey dummy, they really can just be a nub!" They do fan very nicely. Also, the stainless AN fitting modification quality will depend on how many bourbons I've had. I'm very good at breaking things on the old SB lathe...
 

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fl-mike said:
I made some injectors and have a few sets available. They won't be any cheaper than SSH because of the small quantity I had made. PM me if you have an interest. And, I made them longer than I should have. Should work fine, but after I received them I'm like: "hey dummy, they really can just be a nub!" They do fan very nicely. Also, the stainless AN fitting modification quality will depend on how many bourbons I've had. I'm very good at breaking things on the old SB lathe...
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So you've been using them for over a year now.
Did you end up cutting them shorter? What hole size did you use, did it work correctly or did you need to modify the hole size for a good smoke trail?
 
Pilot135pd said:
So you've been using them for over a year now.
Did you end up cutting them shorter? What hole size did you use, did it work correctly or did you need to modify the hole size for a good smoke trail?
Click to expand...
both work fine. No issues so far with coking or anything and the integrated check valve on the gen2 works great too. Smoke snaps off cleanly. About half of my formation group are using them.
 
Anybody heard anything from SSH? I was about to place an order and have called a few times with no answer.

In addition, has anyone mounted the tank and pump forward of the firewall. I know there isn’t much room, but I am contemplating a custom tank that could be accessed by the oil door. Main reason is to get every pound forward on my 7.
 
mack55 said:
In addition, has anyone mounted the tank and pump forward of the firewall. I know there isn’t much room, but I am contemplating a custom tank that could be accessed by the oil door. Main reason is to get every pound forward on my 7.
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Given a crash or inflight fire, smoke oil is just about a dangerous as gasoline. Would you put a header tank forward of the firewall?
 
DanH said:
Given a crash or inflight fire, smoke oil is just about a dangerous as gasoline. Would you put a header tank forward of the firewall?
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That's where 98% of the warbirds like T-34 and T-6 have them. If it's safe for those planes, why not for the RVs?

Smoke oil is produced using Gas-to-Liquid (GTL) technology, resulting in a highly saturated, clear, and biodegradable fluid formulated with a specific low viscosity (~9.8 cSt at 40°C) to vaporize instantly and completely when injected into hot exhaust. Real smoke oils (not ATF fluids and other homemade stuff that makes smoke) have a controlled flash point (min 180°C) and excellent low-temperature flow to prevent clogs or fire hazards in aviation smoke systems.
 
mack55 said:
Anybody heard anything from SSH? I was about to place an order and have called a few times with no answer.

In addition, has anyone mounted the tank and pump forward of the firewall. I know there isn’t much room, but I am contemplating a custom tank that could be accessed by the oil door. Main reason is to get every pound forward on my 7.
Click to expand...
My advice is DO NOT send any money to SSH. if something changes and they start fulfilling orders, they will need to get the word out. For now it looks like no one is at the helm and the website is a black hole.
 
mack55 said:
Anybody heard anything from SSH? I was about to place an order and have called a few times with no answer.

In addition, has anyone mounted the tank and pump forward of the firewall. I know there isn’t much room, but I am contemplating a custom tank that could be accessed by the oil door. Main reason is to get every pound forward on my 7.
Click to expand...
DanH said:
Given a crash or inflight fire, smoke oil is just about a dangerous as gasoline. Would you put a header tank forward of the firewall?
Click to expand...

Not sure what SSH status is, I can help if you need similar systems.

On the 7 99.99% of people mount tank behind the seat, which is almost on CG so CG doesn't change much. Some yes but not very drastic. The RV8's we do a forward tank but they have storage up front.

Smoke Oil has a flash point of 375deg or above up to almost 500 depending on who makes it. Not sure I would want it mounted with engine as mentioned, but its fire hazard is probably very minor. Obviously not zero.
 
Avoid Ssh at all costs

I have ordered from smoking airplanes, smoke on and ace. All are good. I do like ace injectors the best so far.
 
mack55 said:
Anybody heard anything from SSH? I was about to place an order and have called a few times with no answer.

In addition, has anyone mounted the tank and pump forward of the firewall. I know there isn’t much room, but I am contemplating a custom tank that could be accessed by the oil door. Main reason is to get every pound forward on my 7.
Click to expand...
Smoke system helper is out of business but the website is still up. The owner fell ill. Nobody seems to know the details but AVOID. Smoke on makes a great kit. The tank behind the seat is the way to go.
 
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