He also said that they do not take deposits and that the full amount is invoiced before shipping."
Must be the way you ask!
I paid a deposit April 22 but agreed with Lyc that I didn't need it until late 23. Had been given a 1st Sept delivery but that's been and gone. Emailed Lyc direct and Chris confirmed that they were running late but still building engines and would be in touch in the near future with an update. He also said that they do not take deposits and that the full amount is invoiced before shipping. Also confirmed that "Vans is and remains one of Lycoming’s most reliable customers with no delay in payment. We continue to build for Vans customers, with engines on our build line at this moment."
A friend in this situation got the exact same words. Seems deposits never made it to Lycoming, Lycoming is aware of the turbulence and has a generic canned response ready.
Paul ThomasVan has financial errors, but they truthfulness has never been an issue.
Add me to the list of customers who paid a deposit on an engine but don't have it yet. I paid a 25% deposit on an engine/prop combo over 18 months ago. The prop was delivered almost a year ago and is still in the box. My IO-390 engine is supposed to be delivered right at the end of this year. I am nervous...
I ordered an IO-540 Thunderbolt in March 2022. I was given a 12-18 month delivery. I called April of 2023 to talk with Jeff that was in charge of Thunderbolt at the time of my order and he passed me to Chris Gayman that has taken his place. He gave me a promise that my engine would be ready Mid to end of May. That came and passed with no engine in sight. I gave it until 8-22-2023 and called Chris again. He gave me a new promise date of mid to end of September. I called back mid September to find out about when to send finial payment and Chris tells me the Thunderbolt line has been shut down for the month of September due to a backlog on engines heads that have caused some other engine parts to rust and they were dealing with that right now. He told me his boss has not given him any update on when the line would be back running again but my engine was at the top of the list for assembly. After the financial news with Vans I have been wondering the same thing as others about my engine deposit (has it been paid to Lycoming?) Is this a reason for ongoing delays? I also received my prop about 6 months after my order was placed as promised and that went without any delay or financial problems. I'm not sure if this answers anyone's questions but I'm not sure what the real truth is on engine problems or promised delivery dates. I hope I receive my engine soon and it is free of rusty parts and spider webs!!! I am going to try to reach out to Chris again this week and get an update. If I have any news I will post it on here.
I will definitely heed your advice.Take the prop out of the box..... read the storing instructions from Hartzell or give Kristy a call.
Ferdara
I have a deposit on a Thunderbolt March 22. Do I think it’s possible to lose it? Yes. However if Vans was to survive and expect to continue it would be business suicide to take 10k from who knows how many customers. NOBODY in their right mind would buy from them going forward.
I have a deposit on a Thunderbolt March 22. Do I think it’s possible to lose it? Yes. However if Vans was to survive and expect to continue it would be business suicide to take 10k from who knows how many customers. NOBODY in their right mind would buy from them going forward.
Agree. I said this before which is why I think we might be ok.
I have a deposit on a Thunderbolt March 22. Do I think it’s possible to lose it? Yes. However if Vans was to survive and expect to continue it would be business suicide to take 10k from who knows how many customers. NOBODY in their right mind would buy from them going forward.
I'm no expert, but I thought Chapter 11 (if it happened) does theoretically allow companies to walk away from previously-agreed contracts and leave people out of pocket, as long as the creditors agree to the plan.
Admittedly my understanding is that Chapter 11 is generally (ab)used to screw staff, unions and and individual major creditors rather than customers.
I think it's less likely to be a matter of legalities and more a matter of practicalities, since if they did eat people's deposits like this no-one would trust them enough to send them money again.
Frankly I would trust them more after a chapter 11 bankruptcy than right now. At least at that point a court independently reviewed their financials and believes there reorganization plan can succeed. Apple went through chapter 11 and people seem to trust them.
Also depending on how bad their financials are they might honor the deposits in a chapter 11 filing. They might just need that to renegotiate locked in prices and current liabilities from LCP which they really can’t do any other way.
Oliver
Two data points on my Thunderbolt IO-540 order:
- On August 3rd, there were 10 orders ahead of me.
- On October 30th, there were “15 or so” orders ahead of me.
No estimate of delivery - ever.
Based on this information I’d estimate they are producing very few engines each month, if any.
After over 2 1/2 years it seems I’m going backwards on the deliver list.
Carl
Manufacturing companies rarely pay employees to sit around the factory twiddling thumbs. If they weren't producing things, they would shut down the plant and you probably would have heard about it from one of the AV journalists by now. Far more likely is that there is a priority system on orders and you are not in the top category, with other high priority customers pushing you down the list (no legal obligation to maintain a first come, first served system), or they have diverted staff to make parts for the replacement market instead of new engines. Could be many things, but doubt they are not producing components. There is a pretty big bubble in the aviation market right now and it would be foolish not to get while the getting is good. I am confident that thy are "getting" from somewhere.
Yep - I’d guess the Thunderbolt line got talent and parts redirected (stolen) to fill holes in the certified engine and parts lines. An engine order that is pushing three years old (and at a price before ~six price hikes) may not represent their highest profit margin opportunity.
If my guess is right, the green eye shade guys are in charge.
But with no exit ramp to go with another engine shop option, I’m stuck.
Carl
As much as we may decry the finance folks, we don't have to look very far to see a great example of what can happen when the people in charge don't know how to count beans.
Yessir, this is america where profit is king. Whether we like it or not, we can't really fault them. Not touching the other part beyond saying it is an excellent counter point.
The lack of response from Lycoming Thunderbolt Shop customer service is disturbing to say the least. Although given that Van's has our cash and not Lycoming I can understand their reluctance to respond.
I just hope we don't become unsecured creditors.... because that status generally sucks.