[MWH265]

WOW

Someone needs to go back through math class. $13.20 to $49.00 for a cowling hinge pin is not a 32% increase.

 

[Brantel]

We found a back door!

It is via the Home page, then AIRCRAFT, then pick RV-7 from the drop-down. On the RV-7 specific page, click on the KIT ORDER FORM oval and it brings up the order form and price.

Seems their IT guy is getting a bit punchy..... The forms keep coming and going and changing. Also depends on what link you use as to what you get returned. Even mobile devices sometimes return different pages than desktops.

In my best Southern Appalachian American Accent: Bless their hearts!

 

[Desert Rat]

Did anybody else notice that on the RV7 the trike is now $4,500 more than the taildragger?

 

[plehrke]

Someone needs to go back through math class. $13.20 to $49.00 for a cowling hinge pin is not a 32% increase.

I don’t believe 32% was ever thought to be across the board on every part. That was the problem I saw when someone published a 32% number.

 

[Bastien]

Someone needs to go back through math class. $13.20 to $49.00 for a cowling hinge pin is not a 32% increase.

This is what Van's wrote:
"Following an intensive internal assessment and cost review, we are increasing most of our kit prices by approximately 32%. Our online order forms will be updated this weekend with the new kit prices. Prices of individual parts and components will also be increasing, some more than 32%, and others less"

I guess it is clear that the 32% is not applicable for individual parts...

 

[Brantel]

Someone needs to go back through math class. $13.20 to $49.00 for a cowling hinge pin is not a 32% increase.

Surely that is a mistake on their part. Nobody is going to pay that kind of price for basic components that can be purchased almost anywhere. If its not a mistake, I am sure ACS will appreciate the increase in sales.

 

[airguy]

This surely going to effect some third party vendors that sold upgrades outside of VANS.

Perhaps that was the intent. There has been some bad blood there in the past.

 

[Majorpayne317641]

I checked all the parts I ordered within the last 6 months. Things like proseal remain unchanged in price, other things doubled, some increased by a few dollars. I don’t know how they figured their increase but they are random.

 

[lr172]

Here is an example where applying an arbitrary 100% price increase on parts hasn't really worked out. It feels like Vans still doesn't really have control of its prices vs costs. I get they need cash now but long term this is not a good strategy. Customer aren't going to be happy.

Matco brakes from Vans $2,520 for set of 2.
https://store.vansaircraft.com/u-00011-grove-wheels-brakes-6-x-6-00-u-00011.html

Direct from Matco who I'm sure give Vans a discount so they don't under cut
$1220 !!!
https://matcoals.com/product/whl-brk-wi600-rv-10-config/

Yes, another good example. Literally vans overnight goes from reasonable prices to something I would almost call egregious. Clearly kit prices needed to go up to address their cost increases, but the above is pretty heavy handed and does not help their long term situation IMHO. I don't think an increase like this was reviewed and a new price set. Someone just went to the ecommerce tool and added a multiplier to the markup. I suspect most of the parts are now 100% markup. Thankfully in cases like above, we can just bypass Vans to get these parts at a fair price.

Again, not passing judgement yet, as we need to give the new leadership some time

 

[lr172]

Let's say they spend $400k a year on engineers' salaries. If they ship 650 kits a year. That's $615 per kit, a small fraction of the kit price. We have an idea what it costs to manufacture parts based on the more expensive cost of on demand manufacturing (which includes material cost, labor, plus third party profit). With cheaper in house manufacturing, I believe the SB kits could easily be much cheaper than they are and still turn a profit. But as you allude to, they have a big overhead and it seems that overhead is not directly related to kit manufacturing.

I think the big overhead problem is overstaffing and trying to be an airplane manufacturer (RV-12 + QB components) in addition to a kit manufacturer, which are really two different business models--the former having very unpredictable costs over the long production cycle. The result is that people that just want to buy sheet metal parts in a SB kit have to subsidize a huge portion of the airplane manufacturing business.

If they keep raising prices on the basic kits to keep the other parts of the business open, then they're going to have fewer and fewer customers and dwindling business, just like the other airplane manufacturers whose prices have gone up astronomically and whose customer bases have all but disappeared.

My opinion is that they need to split the business up and have each company focus on one product type and drop the intercompany subsidizing.

I agree. They really need to find a plan that gets them back to where they were as opposed to where it appears they are trying to go. Lycoming can get away with doubling their prices just because they can, because their two competitors just match it instead of competing with them. I do not believe that is going to work with the kit business. If things continue on the path that they have shown us so far, I just don't see the sales volume staying anywhere near what it was. Again, this is a first pass and very possible the leadership will recognize this and make adjustments.

The fly in the ointment here is that they now have a need for a lot of profit to pay for the losses of the last 2 years and not sure the courts will let them drag their feet on repaying it. Very possible this is just a mid term approach to get back on a level footing.

Also, we can't compare lycoming or burritos to vans situation. Lycomings 100% increase is NOT due to their costs and labor going up. A large portion of that is just more profit. This is simple suppy and demand. You keep raising prices untill demand falls off. Lyc has doubled it's cost and still has a 1+ year backlog of orders. You can expect more of the same untill demand finally falls off. Once we finally get a recession, demand will vaporize and prices will plummit. Simple economics. There has been a huge bulge in the EAB space over the last three years and therefore, I expect the fall off to be pretty dramatic once the economy finally turns.

Some of this is already coming. Lots of companies are already paring back a bit. Even the shipping market is now bracing. No price changes yet, but seems everyone is preparing.

 

[sc_pilot]

Yes, another good example. Literally vans overnight goes from reasonable prices to something I would almost call egregious. Clearly kit prices needed to go up to address their cost increases, but the above is pretty heavy handed and does not help their long term situation IMHO. I don't think an increase like this was reviewed and a new price set. Someone just went to the ecommerce tool and added a multiplier to the markup. I suspect most of the parts are now 100% markup. Thankfully in cases like above, we can just bypass Vans to get these parts at a fair price.

Again, not passing judgement yet, as we need to give the new leadership some time

If you look at the two links, one is matco the other is grove… not apples to apples

 

[lr172]

If you look at the two links, one is matco the other is grove… not apples to apples

that may be true, but Vans used to be a company that took great steps to keep cost low. I have my doubts that they would have switched from Matco to Grove if the prices weren't the same or lower. I suspect that the grove stuff is also around $1200.

 

[spatsch]

Surely that is a mistake on their part. Nobody is going to pay that kind of price for basic components that can be purchased almost anywhere. If its not a mistake, I am sure ACS will appreciate the increase in sales.

Maybe that’s there intend. ACS has a well oiled logistics machine they have been investing in for years. Van’s by own admission has not. So for Van’s trying to compete on price with ACS for parts both buy from likely the same manufacturer would be crazy. Van’s is better off focusing on parts they are the exclusive supplier for.

Oliver

 

[CaptPausert]

Just an FYI if you do a Google search you can get to the kit prices and lead times page which is listed as updated Dec 10. The prices there are different than the ones on the order page that is accessible from the individual aircraft pages.

 

[AirShowFan]

...Lycoming also went up about 100% since then as well. All this in 3-4 years . Whoa! It just really surprised me that it could be that drastic in 3 years.

To be fair, the past three years weren't exactly normal.

They say a rising tide lifts all ships...

Whoever says that, doesn't understand how the US economy works.

I don't think vans could afford to deal with dropping the 7 too many builders still building the kit...

Remember: When Van's stops manufacturing a kit (at least historically), they don't stop selling parts/kits to people who are in the middle of a build. It's true that you can no longer get started building a new RV-6 (i.e. order a tail kit) but if you're part-way through an RV-6 build, Van's will continue to sell you what you need to finish it (although the production runs for RV-3/4/6 parts are few and far between).

 

[LittleJon]

Just updated: Lead times and Kit Prices page shows a 55% increase for the RV-12iS WING KIT. Previously $9,085 now $14,100.

Me thinks this is an error as other kits are approx' 32%+.

Still no prices for Avionic and Engines.

effective: December 10, 2023, 3:00 pm, Pacific Time
https://www.vansaircraft.com/order-a-kit/kit-prices-and-lead-times/

 

[bertschb]

Just updated: Lead times and Kit Prices page shows a 55% increase for the RV-12iS WING KIT. Previously $9,085 now $14,100.

Me thinks this is an error as other kits are approx' 32%+.

The RV-14A fuselage kit went up 61%. It was $13,100. It's now $21,150. Yikes!!!

The big problem for me? I made my "final" payment on the fuselage kit in August. It will be extremely painful when they contact me and ask for an additional $8,000 "final, final" payment.

 

[bertschb]

Lycoming Thunderbolt lead times increased from 30-36 months to 36-48 months. FOUR year lead time????

When I ordered mine in March, it was an 18-24 month lead time.

 

[calvid]

The RV-14A fuselage kit went up 61%. It was $13,100. It's now $21,150. Yikes!!!

The big problem for me? I made my "final" payment on the fuselage in August. It will be extremely painful when they contact me and ask for an additional $8,000 "final, final" payment.

I'm not sure how reliable the prices are right now. The finishing kit for the RV-14 only went up like 10% (according to a screenshot of prices I took in October). I'm guessing they're still working on the price list and don't expect us to be looking at it yet.

At least I hope. A 61% increase on the fuse kit would really hurt. Unless the finishing kit really stays at 18k to balance it out.

 

[bertschb]

Unless the finishing kit really stays at 18k to balance it out.

It appears the combined increase for the -14A fuselage and finishing kits is around 32%. They may have moved some expensive items (e.g wheels/brakes, etc) from the finishing kit to the fuselage kit - or made a mistake.

 

[LittleJon]

I'm not sure how reliable the prices are right now.

I agree, access to the on-line Order Forms for the 10 and 14 that was available last night, has now been removed.

 

[stigaro]

The RV-14A fuselage kit went up 61%. It was $13,100. It's now $21,150. Yikes!!!

The big problem for me? I made my "final" payment on the fuselage kit in August. It will be extremely painful when they contact me and ask for an additional $8,000 "final, final" payment.

I suspect some parts got moved from the Finishing kit to the Fuselage kit since the Finishing kit went up less than 20%. Perhaps gear or brakes?

 

[APicard]

When the links to the order forms work there are some major items that have now been added as standard items rather then optional upgrades.

 

[CheetahLegs]

Just updated: Lead times and Kit Prices page shows a 55% increase for the RV-12iS WING KIT. Previously $9,085 now $14,100.

Me thinks this is an error as other kits are approx' 32%+.

Still no prices for Avionic and Engines.

effective: December 10, 2023, 3:00 pm, Pacific Time
https://www.vansaircraft.com/order-a-kit/kit-prices-and-lead-times/

How much did the RV-8 slow build kits go up? I can't remember what they were before but they seem to have not changed (too much) from what I remember.

 

[inktomi]

How much did the RV-8 slow build kits go up? I can't remember what they were before but they seem to have not changed (too much) from what I remember.

I placed my RV-8 order a few weeks ago, empennage was 2,800. Wings were 10,590. Fuselage was 11,800. All slow build pricing.

After some math, that’s 53% up on the tail, 27% on the wings, and 45% on the fuselage. I think they all include the optional trim now though etc and so the math might be a few percent one way or the other.

 

[CheetahLegs]

I placed my RV-8 order a few weeks ago, empennage was 2,800. Wings were 10,590. Fuselage was 11,800. All slow build pricing.

After some math, that’s 53% up on the tail, 27% on the wings, and 45% on the fuselage. I think they all include the optional trim now though etc and so the math might be a few percent one way or the other.

Thanks for that, I'm in Canada, so I must have been remembering the pricing in CAD because the numbers looked the same.

 

[lyosha]

Fuse kit for RV10 went up by 58%. Ouch.

 

[APicard]

Thanks for that, I'm in Canada, so I must have been remembering the pricing in CAD because the numbers looked the same.

I feel your pain.... some of the price changes dont look bad till we convert it to CAD then it hurts more.

I'm so used to adding 40% to the cost of the kits that it took me a minute to notice the price change. still doable for my build but will add some time to the next purchase.

 

[CheetahLegs]

I feel your pain.... some of the price changes dont look bad till we convert it to CAD then it hurts more.

I'm so used to adding 40% to the cost of the kits that it took me a minute to notice the price change. still doable for my build but will add some time to the next purchase.

Yeah...it caught me off guard for sure and thought maybe the RV-8 had escaped a big price increase. Maybe the Canadian dollar will get better over the next few years (probably not but I can hope). You have PST in Ontario too, which makes it even worse.

 

[TASEsq]

I’m glad I already have my fuselage kit!! (RV14)

RV14
Empennage 32%
Wing 38%
Fuselage 58% !!!!
Finish 15%

Average 35%

 

[cbennet1]

RV14
Empennage 32%
Wing 38%
Fuselage 58% !!!!
Finish 15%

Average 35%

Glad I only need the finishing kit.

Looks like no more new orders for RV3, 4, 6, 6A, and “legacy” 12. Makes sense given the costs of all the inventory required.

 

[Bruce]

Off website

 

[dwollen89]

Why would the 7 fuse kit be 2k less than the 7A fuse kit? The other A model fuse kits aren’t a lot more expensive.

 

[rkensrud]

Off website

While that page is “hosted” on Vans site, the official “Order A Kit” button still points to the info that it is being revised. So I would treat this info as a draft right now.

 

[airguy]

Glad I only need the finishing kit.

Looks like no more new orders for RV3, 4, 6, 6A, and “legacy” 12. Makes sense given the costs of all the inventory required.

Sure about that? This is pretty early in the process - wanna place a wager?

 

[APicard]

Why would the 7 fuse kit be 2k less than the 7A fuse kit? The other A model fuse kits aren’t a lot more expensive.

I would assume it has to do with included items that used to be optional. (Left and Right steps usually aren't part of the non A kits)

 

[Desert Rat]

yesterday morning before it all went away again the 7A fuselage was $4500 more than the 7. They didn't add $4,500 worth of steps...

 

[GrahamF]

It doesn't bode well.

Whatever new management is running the show doesn't even have the nous to call folks into a room and say:

"Don't put any of these prices on the website until we've confirmed everything as final."

 

[deMan]

yesterday morning before it all went away again the 7A fuselage was $4500 more than the 7. They didn't add $4,500 worth of steps...

The 9 fuselage used to be a few k cheaper than the 9A. Now it’s more expensive. Wonder how that came to be.

 

[APicard]

It doesn't bode well.

Whatever new management is running the show doesn't even have the nous to call folks into a room and say:

"Don't put any of these prices on the website until we've confirmed everything as final."

For all we know they may think the stuff is still hidden. All depends on there IT guys ability to test websites in sandbox mode vs live mode. He's probably been told to post the pricing and links but keep them locked and hidden till X date.

Sometimes a simple click or coding change can update and make live stuff that is hidden via the main selection options. (Kit pricing link not available but a backdoor Google search still gets you to the page)

 

[GrahamF]

For all we know they may think the stuff is still hidden. All depends on there IT guys ability to test websites in sandbox mode vs live mode. He's probably been told to post the pricing and links but keep them locked and hidden till X date.

Sometimes a simple click or coding change can update and make live stuff that is hidden via the main selection options. (Kit pricing link not available but a backdoor Google search still gets you to the page)

Sure, but either way it's incompetence somewhere.

 

[plehrke]

I wonder if prices are going to be based on good old supply and demand. High prices for things with low supply and/or higher demand. Also wonder how often prices will be updated instead of the once a year as previous. All online places I buy from adjust prices continuously.

I have not seen, but may have missed in the hundreds of post on this thread, that the store is actually fully updated. So I am going to wait until I see an official announcement from Vans that web store is up and running and ready to go.

 

[MIKE JG]

I placed my RV-8 order a few weeks ago, empennage was 2,800. Wings were 10,590. Fuselage was 11,800. All slow build pricing.

After some math, that’s 53% up on the tail, 27% on the wings, and 45% on the fuselage. I think they all include the optional trim now though etc and so the math might be a few percent one way or the other.

I'm sure we'll get some answers eventually but I'm curious like others how they arrived at these numbers.

 

[bimmer1980]

Manufacturing Efficiencies

Just a couple of comments on the pricing increases and part costs.
I'm working on a Fuse kit for a RV-10. I have dealt with some custom sheet aluminum manufacturing for a work project -- here are a few insights and comments:

The wing kits seems to have many parts that are the same -- ribs, etc.

The Fuse kit has many unique parts. If there are similar parts, there are only a handful, and some are mirror parts.

Manufacturing thrives on doing the same operation over and over. Minimizing machine setup also helps. Hence, larger runs of the same parts helps drive down costs. The batching method is key to doing a run of all the same parts to supply multiple kits.

Therefore, I'm not surprised at the higher cost associated with the Fuse kits. The sheer number of unique parts drives that cost.

When I simply look at the kit costs online, I'm floored at the costs, especially compared to what I could buy instead -- i.e. a new 4Runner, etc.
But after having the kit in hand and doing the inventory of the parts and looking at the various punched parts and formed, as well as the steel welded kits, I can see where the costs add up quickly.

The main reason the automotive industry is so lean is that they are building thousands of the same model, the machines are dedicated to parts, and the efficiencies they've gained through careful workflow.

just my two cents....

 

[Chrayo]

Just a couple of comments on the pricing increases and part costs.
I'm working on a Fuse kit for a RV-10. I have dealt with some custom sheet aluminum manufacturing for a work project -- here are a few insights and comments:

The wing kits seems to have many parts that are the same -- ribs, etc.

The Fuse kit has many unique parts. If there are similar parts, there are only a handful, and some are mirror parts.

Manufacturing thrives on doing the same operation over and over. Minimizing machine setup also helps. Hence, larger runs of the same parts helps drive down costs. The batching method is key to doing a run of all the same parts to supply multiple kits.

Therefore, I'm not surprised at the higher cost associated with the Fuse kits. The sheer number of unique parts drives that cost.

When I simply look at the kit costs online, I'm floored at the costs, especially compared to what I could buy instead -- i.e. a new 4Runner, etc.
But after having the kit in hand and doing the inventory of the parts and looking at the various punched parts and formed, as well as the steel welded kits, I can see where the costs add up quickly.

The main reason the automotive industry is so lean is that they are building thousands of the same model, the machines are dedicated to parts, and the efficiencies they've gained through careful workflow.

just my two cents....

I’ve owned 4Runners, that thing is way too underpowered to ever fly like an RV.

 

[iwannarv]

I’ve owned 4Runners, that thing is way too underpowered to ever fly like an RV.

The rolling value of my 4Runner more than doubles when I place the newly priced RV10 seats in the cargo area. The economics of daily drivers to airplane parts is something I have to explain to my wife, constantly.

 

[David Paule]

I expect that prices will change over the next few months, as the bankruptcy works through. Van's will have time to formulate answers to some of the questions folks have asked about their orders, and their supply chain will evolve.

Dave

 

[gasman]

90's kit vs a 2023 kit

Van's should publish the price of an RV6A kit shipped in 1997, based on todays prices, so everyone could see the cost of pre-punched self jigging no layout no plans reading snap together and one stop shopping. Plus a big discount on motors and props.

All of those labor saving improvements to the builder had to be paid by someone..... and now we know who was paying for them as inflation snuck in.

 

[Dean Pichon]

The RV-4 cost increases over the years are good data points as the kit has remained largely unchanged over the past 30+ years. I purchased the tail kit for my -4 in 1991. The kit price was $715. Today, the same kit is about $2950. The only change of which I am aware is the option for 0.020 skins in lieu of the 0.016.

[/url][/IMG]

 

[RV6_flyer]

Van's should publish the price of an RV6A kit shipped in 1997, based on todays prices, so everyone could see the cost of pre-punched self jigging no layout no plans reading snap together and one stop shopping. Plus a big discount on motors and props.

All of those labor saving improvements to the builder had to be paid by someone..... and now we know who was paying for them as inflation snuck in.

I think this may have been 1989.