Hi Greg, It has been over a week since you said the Rotax order form would be available. Any update? Thanks!It will be available by Monday afternoon.
Hi Greg, It has been over a week since you said the Rotax order form would be available. Any update? Thanks!It will be available by Monday afternoon.
We were in the process of uploading them when you posted. The RV-12iS order forms are now available on the "Order a Kit" page.Hi Greg, It has been over a week since you said the Rotax order form would be available. Any update? Thanks!
What about the Sensenich form?We were in the process of uploading them when you posted. The RV-12iS order forms are now available on the "Order a Kit" page.
Sensenich prop order form (for the RV-12iS) is on the RV-12iS power plant order form.What about the Sensenich form?
I was asking for the other models.Sensenich prop order form (for the RV-12iS) is on the RV-12iS power plant order form.
True transparency might just yield a big question mark. I think there’s a real possibility that Vans just doesn’t know very much about how much time it will take for Lycoming to build and deliver engines. And there’s a definite chance that Lycoming doesn’t know much about that, either.I truly think it is about time engine buyers get more transparency on what is going on between Vans and Lycoming.
Absolutely there is a good faith effort from Vans, but they cannot tell you what is not yet known.
I think what most people miss or don't understand is that "Vans" as we know it, is not in charge. There is an entirely new management team whose only job is to get the company through Ch11. Then add in the attorneys and court and you're not dealing with the old Vans we are used to where you could call up and they could make accommodations and changes on the fly. This is a transaction for the restructuring team, not a long term relationship - for better or worse.
I don’t think this is the cases. CH 11 allows vans to modify contracts with its creditors - including Lycoming. Lycoming (like us) may agree or not. I am concluding that this is still being negotiated, and no agreement has been made yet.From Lycoming point of view, they have binding orders from Vans. black and white.
This a confirmation of your offer to purchase from Vans. Vans will not accept it until they can deliver at that price (or a new price TBD). And that all depends on their negotiations with Lycoming.I assume there are many builders like me who already got the "new order confirmation".
Ch 11 allows Van's to modify or cancel previously agreed upon contracts. It does not let them modify new contracts going forward. Van's had a number of execs at Lycoming a couple weeks ago to hammer out pricing details. I don't believe that the court would allow Van's to proceed with modified engine orders if they didn't have a solid deal with Lycoming at this point. I may be naive, but I accepted my new order details based on the details provided to me and I fully expect Van's and Lycoming to ship me an engine when it's ready for the agreed upon price. Now when that is...?I don’t think this is the cases. CH 11 allows vans to modify contracts with its creditors - including Lycoming. Lycoming (like us) may agree or not. I am concluding that this is still being negotiated, and no agreement has been made yet.
This a confirmation of your offer to purchase from Vans. Vans will not accept it until they can deliver at that price (or a new price TBD). And that all depends on their negotiations with Lycoming.
Bottom line to me - the Vans / Lycoming card game is not over yet. And no one will guarantee cost or timeline until it is.
I accepted my new order details based on the details provided to me and I fully expect Van's and Lycoming to ship me an engine when it's ready for the agreed upon price.
Okay, but look from this angle: Through Vans or not, do you really think Lycoming had any risk of not selling those engines? If Vans disappears tomorrow, there will be another distributor to review the contracts and fulfill orders of former Vans clientele, for sure.I don’t think this is the cases. CH 11 allows vans to modify contracts with its creditors - including Lycoming. Lycoming (like us) may agree or not. I am concluding that this is still being negotiated, and no agreement has been made yet.
This a confirmation of your offer to purchase from Vans. Vans will not accept it until they can deliver at that price (or a new price TBD). And that all depends on their negotiations with Lycoming.
Bottom line to me - the Vans / Lycoming card game is not over yet. And no one will guarantee cost or timeline until it is.
THIS MATTER having come before the Court on Debtor's Motion to Hold CustomerJust because the judge ordered them to use a separate account does not necessarily mean it is not their asset to do with as they please. You may be right, but that is a question for an attorney. Once they are out of chap 11, there is no court involvement. The law and judges instructions are full of twists and turns with all sorts of case law and precedence.. The reality is that the bank account holding the money is registered to vans and therefore a Vans asset, so not sure how anyone could make an argument that the $ belongs to anyone but vans. With an escrow, the $ is held in an account registered to someone other than either of the parties involved in the transaction with legal documents spelling out condition for asset transfer.
I agree with you on this. Assuming that they had capacity, it would make sense to produce them, as they will be sold. Of course they also want the best price for them. And the outcome of this negotiation will define a large part of their business expectations and margins going forward. So they want to get their best deal. In seeking their best deal it is against their interest to promise a timeline….. they have to hold out the possibility that a deal won’t happen. If they promise a timeline it is essentially saying to Vans that they have already concluded that the negotiations will succeed, regardless of the terms. That is not in Lycoming’s interest. So I agree with you that they may be sitting on completed engines, possibly. But they won’t promise a delivery until terms are agreed upon with Vans. May it be soon.Okay, but look from this angle: Through Vans or not, do you really think Lycoming had any risk of not selling those engines? If Vans disappears tomorrow, there will be another distributor to review the contracts and fulfill orders of former Vans clientele, for sure.
Why would Lycoming stop producing the engines?
Disregard. I received my answer today from Ryan at AeroLeds via mass email.Hi Greg,
Before I say anything else, I want to thank you for chiming in this evening with what I think may be the best & most sincere set of comms produced on Van’s behalf (that I’ve seen/read) since May 2023.
With regard to backordered items, and I do apologize if I’ve missed this elsewhere, do the lists of backordered items include Aerosun VXi wingtips ordered (and paid in full) with wing kits?
Agreed. Lycoming knows that planes are still flying, still being built, still need engines. The distributor/retailer my change, but the demand did not.I don’t think Lycoming sat on their hands waiting for Vans during the last months.
They most likely built whatever orders that were NOT Vans orders. Those folks got sped up. They are also out of the way.
Vans isn’t the only Lycoming customer.
If Van's were to fold and all current kit construction came to a halt, Lycoming well knows that engine demand would plummet. Keep in mind that Van's is their number one customer.Agreed. Lycoming knows that planes are still flying, still being built, still need engines. The distributor/retailer my change, but the demand did not.
Greg,
Some folks are sitting on theirhands because they think Vans is going the end up CH7.
I suspect with 60 percent plus acceptance it is going ok.
If CH11 is going fine then perhaps Vans can put out a business update before the ordering window closes?
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When the next court date? Is this after all contracts must be signed ?
If I had a stake in this, that operating report would be the primary driver on weather I sent vans more money or not. January's report will likely paint the picture of vans survival. I would assume vans is getting little to no new orders. And I'd think by the end of January most will have accepted and paid or bailed and claimed on existing kit orders.I would like to believe that too but the December operating report has been put out by Vans a couple of days ago and shows a loss 440k larger than they had expected. I have not seen a single projection filed with the court which would make them cash flow positive before running out of DIP funding nor has anybody in court made a statement that they wouldn’t. That doesn’t instill a lot of confidence.
The good news is that the same report shows some post filing payments to Lycoming. So Lycoming is selling and Vans is buying engine. Volume was much lower then pre filling. Not sure if that is due to Lycoming or to Vans not having enough money to buy more engines. So I am not sure blaming Lycoming is fair without any other info.
Oliver
where is the december results report yall are talking about - i cant find it.
THANKS!
You can put it in the cart, and then you will be presented a document to sign. You are able to review it before signing.Reports here say that the engine re-order contract is different from the kit re-order contract, and it doesn't appear to be available on the re-order portal unless you have already committed to re-order. Seem like "we have to pass the bill to find out what's in it."
VAN's or anyone else: know where the engine re-order contract can be found so I can do some due-diligence before deciding on re-order?
if the ? is for me, nothing to do with tax since I'm located on the old continent...Were you able to get them to remove the tax on the original order price?
Did they remove the $1,000 discount for ordering the prop at the same time?...the original Gross Amount for my naked TB engine magically increased by 1K!
Thanks for the hint, but nope, order for the engine only.Did they remove the $1,000 discount for ordering the prop at the same time?
Has to be a mistake, I ordered in March 22 and the old price was stated correctly on in the reorder form and I live in the same country on the old continent…Thanks for the hint, but nope, order for the engine only.
Decision time is now approaching fast... wondering what the majority has decided?
I have approached the math of continuing based on writing off the entire deposit and another only half the deposit. (I don’t think anything more then. 50 cents on the dollar is even possible to recover) Add those numbers to the cost of another purchase or the modified Vans offer and assess.Ok, Van's have again reacted swiftly (they really seem to be working 24/7) and amended my Third-Party Component Purchase and Deposit Modification Agreement with the correct figures, thanks.
Decision time is now approaching fast... wondering what the majority has decided?
I predict engine re-orders will be 94%. Not really any good options.Decision time is now approaching fast... wondering what the majority has decided?
Lot of truth here. In todays market I wonder if a core would be better to be fully disassembled, sent out for yellow-tags, and sold as pieces. Parts prices are moving past stupid up into ludicrous.Finding a “good” engine for overhaul is exactly why I decided to buy new in the first place. Lots of core engines out there that people are too proud of when it comes to price. They’re awful sure the crank is good. When it’s not then that deal becomes not much of a deal anymore.
I sure have no clue about US law, but how can you sign an agreement using a deposit made on some goods, and at the same time file a claim to maybe recover some of the same deposit?Does anybody know of a reason that would be a bad idea?