N82VM said:
I have approached the math of continuing based on writing off the entire deposit and another only half the deposit. (I don’t think anything more then. 50 cents on the dollar is even possible to recover) Add those numbers to the cost of another purchase or the modified Vans offer and assess.

Finding a “good” engine for overhaul is exactly why I decided to buy new in the first place. Lots of core engines out there that people are too proud of when it comes to price. They’re awful sure the crank is good. When it’s not then that deal becomes not much of a deal anymore.
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Or they go tits up after you pay the total balance and you lose the deposit….the second deposit and the balance….
 
swift12 said:
Or they go tits up after you pay the total balance and you lose the deposit….the second deposit and the balance….
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There is no second deposit. Only the balance. Engines are 25% which was already paid. Yes there is a window between balance and delivery.

If I had that feeling, I don’t have to pay the balance, I can still cancel. My deposit was already gone anyway.

At that point Only thing lost was the ability to claim my deposit which if they were closed up I wouldn’t get anyway.

Turd sandwich
 
Dan 57 said:
I sure have no clue about US law, but how can you sign an agreement using a deposit made on some goods, and at the same time file a claim to maybe recover some of the same deposit?
From my simplified vision one would void the other, as in either or, but again, I might be far from the truth.
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No, you pretty much have a good handle on it. That doesn't stop people from trying though. The court will review the claim in it's turn and the judge will make a decision on whether it is a valid claim or not. If there is "double dipping", the claim will be thrown out.

There is nothing stopping me from making a claim against Vans Aircraft for the 12 elephants that I think they owe me - but that doesn't mean the judge will agree and award me 12 elephants.
 
airguy said:
No, you pretty much have a good handle on it. That doesn't stop people from trying though. The court will review the claim in it's turn and the judge will make a decision on whether it is a valid claim or not. If there is "double dipping", the claim will be thrown out.

There is nothing stopping me from making a claim against Vans Aircraft for the 12 elephants that I think they owe me - but that doesn't mean the judge will agree and award me 12 elephants.
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Amazing the number of claims for backordered pieces at the "new" price. The claim is valid only for the amount customer actually has paid to Vans. Customer can't profit from filing a claim, can only ask to be made whole on actual loses. The ESOP/ERISA claims will take a bit to litigate. Will be interesting to see how many claims get pitched due to new contracts being signed i.e. the afore mentioned "double dipping". Then there are the full refund claims due to LCP even though claimants admit replacement has been offered. It will take a while to work through the pile and separate the wheat from the chaff. There clearly are valid claims, there are dubious claims, there are claims that are filed without support documentation and a fairly large number where the basic instructions were not followed. Now, when will I get MY elephants?! :>)
 
georgemohr said:
Some good news. Vans asked for the final payment on our prop. We were pretty close to getting shipped prior to the shutdown and were paid in full at that time, so we must have been rather close to the top of the list. Vans email stated 2-4 weeks to ship from now.

So, we have progress!
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That’s great news George! I assume this just happened.

If anyone gets something similar for an Engine from Lycoming please post! The silence is nerve wracking. If lycoming is the one not saying anything it may be time to start knocking on that door to ask what is going on.
 
docjjrmd said:
Amazing the number of claims for backordered pieces at the "new" price. The claim is valid only for the amount customer actually has paid to Vans. Customer can't profit from filing a claim, can only ask to be made whole on actual loses.
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How would that be profiting? We bought kits at a bundled price. Whatever the individual parts sold for at the time is indeterminable and irrelevant. To be made whole, I need to now purchase the missing parts to complete my kit. That can only be done by purchasing the parts at today's price (Actually, it would be the price at the time that they give back my money so I can re-purchase the individual part.)

I don't see anybody asking for interest on the money that Van's owes them. Really, that should be included for someone to be made whole.
 
docjjrmd said:
Amazing the number of claims for backordered pieces at the "new" price. The claim is valid only for the amount customer actually has paid to Vans. Customer can't profit from filing a claim, can only ask to be made whole on actual loses. The ESOP/ERISA claims will take a bit to litigate. Will be interesting to see how many claims get pitched due to new contracts being signed i.e. the afore mentioned "double dipping". Then there are the full refund claims due to LCP even though claimants admit replacement has been offered. It will take a while to work through the pile and separate the wheat from the chaff. There clearly are valid claims, there are dubious claims, there are claims that are filed without support documentation and a fairly large number where the basic instructions were not followed. Now, when will I get MY elephants?! :>)
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What else shall we use? Did anyone get an itemized listing of the exact amount charged for each kit item individually and at kit prices? Rule of thumb was about 1/3 less than retail but it varied widely when it came time to credit parts.

The listed price is all we have. Let Vans counter.
 
N82VM said:
There is no second deposit. Only the balance. Engines are 25% which was already paid. Yes there is a window between balance and delivery.

If I had that feeling, I don’t have to pay the balance, I can still cancel. My deposit was already gone anyway.

At that point Only thing lost was the ability to claim my deposit which if they were closed up I wouldn’t get anyway.

Turd sandwich
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It’s either gone or vans survives. If they survive they will need to pay back our deposits unless the system is corrupt.
 
swift12 said:
It’s either gone or vans survives. If they survive they will need to pay back our deposits unless the system is corrupt.
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Obviously Van's is unable to pay EVERY creditor EVERY dollar owed. But you guys make is sound like Van's can't pay ANY creditor ANY money at all. That's ridiculous.
 
docjjrmd said:
Amazing the number of claims for backordered pieces at the "new" price. The claim is valid only for the amount customer actually has paid to Vans. Customer can't profit from filing a claim, can only ask to be made whole on actual loses. The ESOP/ERISA claims will take a bit to litigate. Will be interesting to see how many claims get pitched due to new contracts being signed i.e. the afore mentioned "double dipping". Then there are the full refund claims due to LCP even though claimants admit replacement has been offered. It will take a while to work through the pile and separate the wheat from the chaff. There clearly are valid claims, there are dubious claims, there are claims that are filed without support documentation and a fairly large number where the basic instructions were not followed. Now, when will I get MY elephants?! :>)
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I filed my claim and then emailed BMC group to withdraw my claim after I confirmed the new engine order. Someone emailed me back with my claim no and all the particulars and asked me to confirm my withdrawal which I did.

Seemed counterintuitive to have a claim when you have agreed to a revised order.
 
jimbom said:
Obviously Van's is unable to pay EVERY creditor EVERY dollar owed. But you guys make is sound like Van's can't pay ANY creditor ANY money at all. That's ridiculous.
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The corp BK attorney I spoke with usually deals with real estate stuff, but he was very negative on manufacturers who end up in ch 7 recovery. He said the highest he has seen was 25% payout, many times nothing. In this case, he said if Van's comes out of ch 11, sub 5 a typical cash recovery would be 50%, maybe a little more - all of those claims would have to be discharged prior to exiting ch 11 - that is how the process works. So the choices were pretty grim - bail out, file a claim and hope for 25-50% on the dollar regardless of Van's survival, or "pay" (on paper) 50% more deposit and accept the 12% increase. I still need a 540 - good luck getting even a decent rebuild for under 70k.

There is no way the trustee or the other creditors are gonna let deposit holders who bail and file a claim skate with 100% on the dollar. There is no creditors committee in this case, but I can tell you the other creditors will be lobbying Vans and the Trustee to ensure everyone takes an equal opportunity haircut.

That's how BK works. Ask any airline pilot over the age of 45.
 
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cactusman said:
The corp BK attorney I spoke with usually deals with real estate stuff, but he was very negative on manufacturers who end up in ch 7 recovery. He said the highest he has seen was 25% payout, many times nothing. In this case, he said if Van's comes out of ch 11, sub 5 a typical cash recovery would be 50%, maybe a little more - all of those claims would have to be discharged prior to exiting ch 11 - that is how the process works. So the choices were pretty grim - bail out, file a claim and hope for 25-50% on the dollar regardless of Van's survival, or "pay" (on paper) 50% more deposit and accept the 12% increase. I still need a 540 - good luck getting even a decent rebuild for under 70k.

There is no way the trustee or the other creditors are gonna let deposit holders who bail and file a claim skate with 100% on the dollar. There is no creditors committee in this case, but I can tell you the other creditors will be lobbying Vans and the Trustee to ensure everyone takes an equal opportunity haircut.

That's how BK works. Ask any airline pilot over the age of 45.
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I, too, wouldn't expect depositors to get different treatment than any other creditor, except for the $3350 priority portion of their claim.

A question for your attorney contact: If Van's successfully turns things around and looks to be profitable, who/when/why decides to exit chapter 11 and cut off claims still owed?

edit: Another question is, if they're unsuccessful and this goes to chapter 7 bankruptcy, is there another round of claims submittal for the modified contracts accepted in chapter 11?
 
There was a pretty good hokey stick of claims filed in the last few days before the bar date... I wonder if there was a similar hockey stick for reorders before the offer expired?
 
BigBadBob said:
There was a pretty good hokey stick of claims filed in the last few days before the bar date... I wonder if there was a similar hockey stick for reorders before the offer expired?
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I was one these who filed a claim for backordered parts. I didn't want to file, but I haven't heard anything from Van's about how the B/O'd parts are being handled and when to expect shipment. I would much rather have my parts than the original payment back, so I'm hoping to get the parts (or at least an update on what is happening with backorders) and then withdraw my claim.
 
Super excited! Just got a very short email from Hartzell with a FedEx tracking number for my prop.

I was one of the ones that got "erroneously contacted" about making final payment for my prop in October.
 
stigaro said:
I was one these who filed a claim for backordered parts. I didn't want to file, but I haven't heard anything from Van's about how the B/O'd parts are being handled and when to expect shipment. I would much rather have my parts than the original payment back, so I'm hoping to get the parts (or at least an update on what is happening with backorders) and then withdraw my claim.
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Bakordered kit parts that were paid for pre-filing as part of the kit final payment are being shipped when available at no additional charge. We've explained this a few times, hasn't changed.

Parts orders where the account is not charged until the parts ship (different than kit orders), the prices are adjusted.But there is no deposit taken in that case. Just a pending order.
 
greghughespdx said:
Bakordered kit parts that were paid for pre-filing as part of the kit final payment are being shipped when available at no additional charge. We've explained this a few times, hasn't changed.

Parts orders where the account is not charged until the parts ship (different than kit orders), the prices are adjusted.But there is no deposit taken in that case. Just a pending order.
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Thanks for the update, Greg. Claim has been withdrawn upon this news.
 
greghughespdx said:
Bakordered kit parts that were paid for pre-filing as part of the kit final payment are being shipped when available at no additional charge. We've explained this a few times, hasn't changed.

Parts orders where the account is not charged until the parts ship (different than kit orders), the prices are adjusted.But there is no deposit taken in that case. Just a pending order.
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Thank-you Greg for pitching in even though I am aware this has been addressed before.
 
@greghughespdx your checking in on these forums is appreciated. Wanted to inquire if there is any estimate with how the Lycoming engine timing discussion is going? I know you cant put out any definitive date info, but is there any info that can be released as to the current status in discussions with Lycoming now that the claim date has passed? Appreciate if you are unable to state one way or the other also.
 
jimbom said:
Obviously Van's is unable to pay EVERY creditor EVERY dollar owed. But you guys make is sound like Van's can't pay ANY creditor ANY money at all. That's ridiculous.
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why? if they survive why should people take a haircut. The debt should still be owning while they trade out of it. Its 50/50 paying the extra money in my case ($4600 finishing kit and $2500 engine but thats TODAY and can and probably will change again before my stuff would be ready to ship in 2075) and they owe me 12k in deposits but I wont be agreeing to 50 cents on the dollar. yes yes blah blah i might get nothing then....yeah yeah i get it.
 
didja said:
@greghughespdx your checking in on these forums is appreciated. Wanted to inquire if there is any estimate with how the Lycoming engine timing discussion is going? I know you cant put out any definitive date info, but is there any info that can be released as to the current status in discussions with Lycoming now that the claim date has passed? Appreciate if you are unable to state one way or the other also.
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are you reading the thread?.....why is this question be asked over and over but there are no answers forth coming. only what you can read on the vans website....I dont believe they have answers and probably wont answer anything while the company managing the chapter 11 is in charge.
 
swift12 said:
why? if they survive why should people take a haircut. The debt should still be owning while they trade out of it. Its 50/50 paying the extra money in my case ($4600 finishing kit and $2500 engine but thats TODAY and can and probably will change again before my stuff would be ready to ship in 2075) and they owe me 12k in deposits but I wont be agreeing to 50 cents on the dollar. yes yes blah blah i might get nothing then....yeah yeah i get it.
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Why what?
 
jimbom said:
Why what?
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WHY should those making claims take a haircut on deposits if vans survives....trade your way out and pay back creditors. you choose to pay more or get out. ok I see why you are confused. another response was it might be 50% refund but that was not from you...sorry for that.
 
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didja said:
iated. Wanted to inquire if there is any estimate with how the Lycoming engine timing discussion is going?
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AFAIK there is no discussions on this subject between Van's and Lycoming.
My understanding (yes, I might be wrong) is that Lycoming has, and will be producing engines as ordered, and once entering the production order line for a specific engine will inform Van's who will in return contact the buyer.
Lycoming is in possession of the order list and will hopefully follow it.
 
swift12 said:
why? if they survive why should people take a haircut. The debt should still be owning while they trade out of it. Its 50/50 paying the extra money in my case ($4600 finishing kit and $2500 engine but thats TODAY and can and probably will change again before my stuff would be ready to ship in 2075) and they owe me 12k in deposits but I wont be agreeing to 50 cents on the dollar. yes yes blah blah i might get nothing then....yeah yeah i get it.
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The whole purpose of ch 11 is the reorg of debt. We engine depositors are all debt holders/creditors. In the end its up to the trustee and the lawyers to formulate an exit plan that reorganizes all the debts that the judge will approve. There is no creditors committee that can approve or accept a proposal under Sub 5.
 
Dan 57 said:
Lycoming is in possession of the order list and will hopefully follow it.
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If that is the case, why can't that information be shared with the folks in the queue? Van's has been reasonably responsive regarding my questions about my other orders, but I have not been able to get any information from Van's or Lycoming regarding the engine order. A simple "You are currently number 321 on the list. This information can change rapidly and we will periodically let you know your status." would go a long way.

This is, after all, a $65,000 item. The last time I bought a car for a fraction of that, the dealer was constantly updating me on status. It isn't that hard to set up a mail-merge to keep customers in the loop.

I don't get the need for secrecy.
 
BigBadBob said:
I don't get the need for secrecy.
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I'm not sure if either of them are being intentionally secretive. Some companies just simply don't understand how critical good communication is for customer service. Lycoming management may think that because they have years worth of orders on the books they have no need to communicate anything. While that may be true, it's just lousy customer service. Companies get away with it because they can.

The good news is any other company that actually responds to emails or proactively announces something makes them look like rock stars. It takes very little effort today to stand out because customer service in general is sooooooo terrible.
 
bertschb said:
Some companies just simply don't understand how critical good communication is for customer service. Lycoming management may think that because they have years worth of orders on the books they have no need to communicate anything.
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My theory (and it’s just that) is that Lycoming itself is in significant disarray, and has no idea how quickly it can deliver engines.
 
bertschb said:
I'm not sure if either of them are being intentionally secretive. Some companies just simply don't understand how critical good communication is for customer service. Lycoming management may think that because they have years worth of orders on the books they have no need to communicate anything. While that may be true, it's just lousy customer service. Companies get away with it because they can.

The good news is any other company that actually responds to emails or proactively announces something makes them look like rock stars. It takes very little effort today to stand out because customer service in general is sooooooo terrible.
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Lycoming can go take a leap. I’m investigating ULpower. They have a full set up for RV 7’s now. No longer need an over inflated lycosaurus. The ULpower is 6 cylinder smoother and lighter….about the same money or a bit less now lycoming (or vans) won’t honour contracts and wanting more money.
 
swift12 said:
Lycoming can go take a leap. I’m investigating ULpower. They have a full set up for RV 7’s now. No longer need an over inflated lycosaurus. The ULpower is 6 cylinder smoother and lighter….about the same money or a bit less now lycoming (or vans) won’t honour contracts and wanting more money.
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I have a UL350is being delivered on Monday for my RV12….it was refreshing…I ordered it and it will arrive 6 weeks later with the FWF kit…no unanswered questions…place on the list…number of complete kits available…no more waiting 14 months and still no answers…I have everything I need to finish now…until I find out I’m missing something…but I’ll get there…surprised more aren’t looking into UL Power…but this is just the beginning.
 
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Glad to see some real options coming into play these days. We all suffer when one supplier is bound by regulatory frameworks to be the lone source for our whole industry.
 
I'm using the UL520i in my RV-9A. Ordered in mid-October, arrived about 8 weeks later between Christmas and New Years. (Nice Christmas gift to myself!) It's a beautiful piece of machinery!
 

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Seems like DHawk missed out on an opportunity to swoop in on this 300 engine back order. Come closer on price and let the performance/efficiency speak for the rest
 
cactusman said:
93% engine re-order rate is awesome. I think Vans and Lycoming might be able to pull this off!
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There weren’t really many good choices when 25% of 40-70k was basically gone unless you applied it to the new 12% increased price which resulted in only losing half your deposit.

I’d estimate all engine buyer’s combined just took a 2.5 million dollar hit to the wallet.
 
Was there some new news about a 93% engine reorder rate? Is there anyone that has received an engine or been asked for the rest of the funds for an engine since chap 11 started? The silence is incredible, I’m actually upset as much with Lycoming as with Vans. I reordered, so let’s communicate what the pipeline for dates looks like OR let us know if Lycoming is having issues too.
 
N82VM said:
There weren’t really many good choices when 25% of 40-70k was basically gone unless you applied it to the new 12% increased price which resulted in only losing half your deposit.

I’d estimate all engine buyer’s combined just took a 2.5 million dollar hit to the wallet.
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We are still a debt to vans. They cannot just take out deposits if they remain in business. So I don’t believe 25% is gone unless they go chapter 7. If that is unlikely the rest of us should get our deposits back given the fact they owe us product or our money back.
 
My guess has always been that they could handle the LCP issue, but what they couldn’t manage was the inflation that the LCP exposed them to in their contract prices. At the beginning they acted like it would be a straightforward and “fairly quick” chapter 11. Looks like we are headed in this direction and hopefully to a stronger more capable company.
 
N82VM said:
There weren’t really many good choices when 25% of 40-70k was basically gone unless you applied it to the new 12% increased price which resulted in only losing half your deposit.

I’d estimate all engine buyer’s combined just took a 2.5 million dollar hit to the wallet.
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Is this a surprise to you? As soon as we knew Van's shortfall it was obvious that customers (you know, the people who supply Van's with money) would bear the burden.

Or were you expecting some magical fairy to swoop in and financially save the company?
 
N82VM said:
Just surprised that unlike most of small businesses that the same decision makers are still making decisions. Normally they are shown the door and replaced.
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If I were to guess ... Van's didn't want to "upset the apple cart," and bring in new people without having the continuity/knowledge that the previous management had. So maybe at some point, they will be replaced. But in the first 90 days of Chapter 11 may not be the ideal time to do so. As it is, I am not sure how many decisions the previous management is truly making right now. Many of the day to day business decisions, I believe, are heavily influenced by the management that has been brought in since the Chapter 11 announcement.

Also, keep in mind, Van himself is the majority shareholder of Van's Aircraft. You're fooling yourself if you don't think he was involved in the previous bad decisions. So, were the Chapter 11 executives supposed to show Van the door? In his defense, when I see Van on video, I see a lot of remorse and humility. And in the video posted yesterday, I can see that Van has learned some lessons.


N82VM said:
Seems like the least they could do is show some humility and eat it since we’re paying for it
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That's basically all I've seen from their videos; humility.
 
There is new management. They were brought in before filing Ch. 11. Van even speaks of them in yesterday's video.

[quote from deleted post removed; S.Buchanan]
 
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jimbom said:
There is new management. They were brought in before filing Ch. 11. Van even speaks of them in yesterday's video.
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A subtle observation is they did not mention titles when they introduced themselves. There is also a more upbeat mood in the last video. Heck, Van even smiled a time or two!

They have definitely been getting some coaching….
 
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