RV-12iS SLSA vs ELSA (cost of ownership)

[rot]

The setup

I am currently a student private pilot (Stage 3 check is coming up in the next week; check ride hopefully around a month out ). I have been flying C172 with G1000 (~130 hours so far); I want to enjoy my PPL for a little while and keep building time, but my plan is to get my Instrument and Commercial ratings in the near future (ideally, later this year), with the long-term goal of getting all the way to ATP (we'll see).

A few weeks ago, I learned about Tango Flight and their high school build program, and after giving it some thought I decided to move forward with one of their student builds (ELSA); to be delivered by the end of May. The build from Tango Flight is basically Night VFR capable with an Autopilot, so I knew I would have to add, at the very least, a GPS to be able to use it for IFR training (in VMC). The price from Tango Flight is $129,900. My CFI thinks I should get a GTN650 instead of a GPS 175, but that's ~$6,600 difference ($11,800 vs $5,200); I would like to have it painted, so I'm adding another $12,000 for that (I'm ok with a simple white coat), plus a G5 as a backup, there goes another $1,575. Adding $5,000 for misc items such as avionics installation, ferry fees, etc, I'm looking at ~$153k or ~$160k (depending on GPS chosen).

Last week I went down to Hillsboro, OR to get transition training on the RV-12iS, and I took the opportunity to swing by Van's factory in Aurora. I was finally able to experience the "grin" during the demo flight, and also learned about their "Advanced Trainer" configuration for the RV-12iS, basically an IFR-capable version without wheel pants and fancy paint scheme (all white). This version is available for $219,500, with delivery in July 2024.


The question

Assuming I use this aircraft for my IFR and Commercial training, plus time building to get to ~1,000 hours total; what do you think is the "better" option? As much as I like the RV-12iS, I am not sure it makes sense to keep it forever. If I got the ELSA from Tango Flight, I might take the 2 Day Light Sport Repairman Inspection Course, but it's not guaranteed.

I am trying to make "the right" choice, which in my head means getting the aircraft that makes the most financial sense at the end of the ~1,000 hours that I'm planning to use it for.

Somehow, I got in my head that the SLSA version has potentially a better resale value, but, does it really?

If I focus only on the "final" number (without taxes), the difference is ~$59k ($219,500 vs $160,275), but the SLSA still has the advantage of a proper second EFIS (GDU 460) vs just a G5 as backup.

I am thinking that I could potentially do a lease back on the SLSA to a flight school, or just sell it once I hit my goal, which is the only option for the ELSA.


Bonus data

One RV-12 just went "SALE PENDING" after about a week on the market. This is a 2021 SLSA (Platinum Package; GNS 650, Autopilot, dual EFIS (GDU 460) and 3 color paint job), with 1010 TT; and until yesterday, it was available for $179,500. I found this link from December 9, 2021 that says that specific build (Platinum package) used to cost $159,500; so, looks like this owner came out ahead, even if it sold for less than asking price. For another data point, this link from December 1, 2022 shows that configuration was $183,000 by then (~15% increase YoY), and finally, this link from December 8, 2023 shows the current price of $232,500. (~27% increase YoY, and ~46% from two years prior!!).

Sales data for ELSA is not so easily available, but a 2022 VFR-only Dynon, high school build with 112TT, is currently available for $125,000 (somewhat expensive, I'd think).


Thoughts...

What would you do, and why? Am I missing something? By the way, I am still able to get my full deposit back from Tango Flight.


Thanks a lot in advance!


Pilot-to-be.

 

[FlyingDiver]

Are you planning on getting your CFI rating to build time? You can instruct in an S-LSA, but not in an E-LSA (unless you get a LODA, which is an entire conversation on it's own).

OTOH, you can fly the E-LSA in IMC, which you cannot do with the S-LSA.

 

[Amadeus]

No more need for LODA.

Also the GPS175 is sufficient for both Instrument and Commercial.

Why would you sell after 1,000 hours? The -12 is a very economical airplane that outperforms many others in this class.

 

[FlyingDiver]

No more need for LODA.

You sure about that? No LODA for getting instruction in your own plane, but to provide instruction (using the instructor's E-LSA) I think one is still needed.

 

[rot]

Are you planning on getting your CFI rating to build time? You can instruct in an S-LSA, but not in an E-LSA (unless you get a LODA, which is an entire conversation on it's own).

OTOH, you can fly the E-LSA in IMC, which you cannot do with the S-LSA.

@FlyingDiver (Joe), I'm "currently" not planning on getting my CFI rating, although I am aware that not having a CFI/CFII rating makes me potentially less desirable to the airlines, so that is potentially subject to change. Regardless, I think I would rather have the option to lease the RV-12 to a flight-school rather than instructing in it myself.

Now, regarding flying in IMC, I would like to be able to at least be able to cross some light fog and stuff like that, so, I might re-certify the SLSA temporarily as en ELSA in order to be able to do that. I learned just the other day that this is not a one-way street, and that the ELSA can be switched back to SLSA, as long as nothing really changed on the aircraft. I can try to find the link to that.

 

[rot]

No more need for LODA.

Also the GPS175 is sufficient for both Instrument and Commercial.

Why would you sell after 1,000 hours? The -12 is a very economical airplane that outperforms many others in this class.

@Amadeus (Jayson), good point on the GPS175. I'm not sure I could do my IFR check ride with just that one (I have read threads supporting this notion and others disproving them), but I'm ok renting a C172 for that, if needed, as well as getting into real IMC.

Now, the Standard Trainer from Van's (Single EFIS, no Autopilot, no Koger Sunshade, no Glare shield) is $189,500. Adding the extras MINUS the GTN650Xi itself and the GMA 245 Audio Panel, brings the total price to $200,834, so, $18,666 difference. I could potentially do the GPS175 after-the-fact and save some money there, but I'm not 100% sure it makes sense in the long-term. By doing that, I'm guessing it would become a ELSA, without a way to revert back (unless I removed the GPS?).

About selling it after 1,000 hours, I think I might outgrow the -12, in which case, a -10 would probably be next; and if I do make it to ATP, I don't think I would have much time to fly it regularly enough to make it worth keeping it.

For me, this specific aircraft is primarily a way to get to ATP at potentially a lower cost than keep renting a Cessna 172S that uses 8.5 gph. My flight school charges $189 hour, wet.

 

[FlyingDiver]

I might re-certify the SLSA temporarily as en ELSA in order to be able to do that. I learned just the other day that this is not a one-way street, and that the ELSA can be switched back to SLSA, as long as nothing really changed on the aircraft. I can try to find the link to that.

If so, that's a change. I've read of owners going S-LSA -> E-LSA, but going the other way was not allowed. I'd like to see that link.

 

[rot]

If so, that's a change. I've read of owners going S-LSA -> E-LSA, but going the other way was not allowed. I'd like to see that link.

@FlyingDiver (Joe), here you go, easiest Google search ever: elsa to slsa

ELSA to SLSA

During a conversation with Mr. Edsel Ford at the FAA office in Oklahoma City today, I learned that it is now possible to convert an experimental light sport (ELSA) aircraft back to a special light sport aircraft (SLSA). The relevant information can be found in FAA Order 8130.2J, Airworthiness Cer...

www.ctflier.com

Let me know your thoughts after you take a look.

 

[Mel]

E-LSAs have always had the option to return to S-LSA. It has been done but it is VERY rare.

The change must be approved in writing by the original S-LSA factory and they are VERY reluctant to do this once the aircraft has been out of their "system".

The manufacturer must inspect the aircraft and confirm that it still meets their specifications.

 

[rot]

E-LSAs have always had the option to return to S-LSA. It has been done but it is VERY rare.

The change must be approved in writing by the original S-LSA factory and they are VERY reluctant to do this once the aircraft has been out of their "system".

The manufacturer must inspect the aircraft and confirm that it still meets their specifications.

Thank you for the information, @Mel. If I decide to go this route, I'll let Van's know in advance to see what they say. If I purchase the S-LSA, I really don't expect to change anything, that's the whole point; but it would be nice to be able to use it legally in extremely light IMC (ie. morning fog).

 

[rcarsey]

I'm time building in the -12iS (IFR avionics) that I built (e-lsa). Your decision of whether to go with S-LSA or E-LSA depends on only a handful of factors. Do you want to teach in it? (or lease it to a flight school once you're done getting your hours). Do you want to do your own maintenance and/or yearly inspection? (The inspection privileges alone would save maybe $1000/yr) Teaching in your own E-LSA is on a case-by-case basis and usually very restrictive (e.g. RV-12 transition training in an area where no S-LSA aircraft exist)..and with the prevalence of RV-12s now, I doubt it'd get approved anymore. When you're done with it, will flight schools still be interested in adding the rv-12 to their fleet?

You can easily add a second G3X screen to one that doesn't already have it - the connector is behind the panel and ready to be plugged into another screen. What you can't do easily (not plug and play) is add a GPS175 or GTN650. The GPS175 is obviously the easiest to add since its functionality is limited. That is all that is required to do Instrument training in the plane (your "3 different types of approaches" would be an LPV with a DA thats 300' AGL or less (this counts as your precision approach even though LPV isnt a precision approach) (Page A-16 of the 2018 instrument ACS), and the other two can be an LNAV or LNAV/VNAV.. or an LPV with a DA above 300' AGL. Two that are always overlooked are ASR and PAR, which would qualify..if there are any in your area (there's just 2 in NJ here). For the partial panel approach, the ACS says a failure that's "most realistic for the equipment used" -- some DPEs will fail your entire screen and force you to use the other G3X.. or whatever else you got.. others will try to cover an instrument on the screen. One of the DPEs here admitted that covering a screen and forcing the applicant to use the other screen "is a joke" though.

E-LSA back to S-LSA is possible, but I only know of one extremely special case where the factory approved that (I can't remember the specifics).

 

[jrtens]

Maintenance costs for the SLSA can be significant as even the simple service bulletins require a LSRM or A&P to comply.

 

[rot]

I'm time building in the -12iS (IFR avionics) that I built (e-lsa). Your decision of whether to go with S-LSA or E-LSA depends on only a handful of factors. Do you want to teach in it? (or lease it to a flight school once you're done getting your hours). Do you want to do your own maintenance and/or yearly inspection? (The inspection privileges alone would save maybe $1000/yr) Teaching in your own E-LSA is on a case-by-case basis and usually very restrictive (e.g. RV-12 transition training in an area where no S-LSA aircraft exist)..and with the prevalence of RV-12s now, I doubt it'd get approved anymore. When you're done with it, will flight schools still be interested in adding the rv-12 to their fleet?

You can easily add a second G3X screen to one that doesn't already have it - the connector is behind the panel and ready to be plugged into another screen. What you can't do easily (not plug and play) is add a GPS175 or GTN650. The GPS175 is obviously the easiest to add since its functionality is limited. That is all that is required to do Instrument training in the plane (your "3 different types of approaches" would be an LPV with a DA thats 300' AGL or less (this counts as your precision approach even though LPV isnt a precision approach) (Page A-16 of the 2018 instrument ACS), and the other two can be an LNAV or LNAV/VNAV.. or an LPV with a DA above 300' AGL. Two that are always overlooked are ASR and PAR, which would qualify..if there are any in your area (there's just 2 in NJ here). For the partial panel approach, the ACS says a failure that's "most realistic for the equipment used" -- some DPEs will fail your entire screen and force you to use the other G3X.. or whatever else you got.. others will try to cover an instrument on the screen. One of the DPEs here admitted that covering a screen and forcing the applicant to use the other screen "is a joke" though.

E-LSA back to S-LSA is possible, but I only know of one extremely special case where the factory approved that (I can't remember the specifics).

Hey @rcarsey (Rob), thank you so much for your valuable insight. Even though I am a Computer Engineer, I wouldn't feel very confident messing with the avionics on the -12, at least not at first. Do you think $5,000 is enough to have the GPS 175 installed? (apart from the cost of the unit cost itself, of course). I would probably have the central console panel done somewhere (Superior Panels in Austin, TX looks like a solid option) so that it's mounted properly.

Thank you so much for adding all the details re. the 3 different approaches for the Instrument Check Ride, I'll make sure to run this by my CFI to make sure he agrees, and accepts that the GTN 650 is NOT absolutely needed. I would much rather have a second G3X Screen (GDU 460) than the fully featured and seldom used GPS/COM. Plus, I'd prefer to keep the GTR200.

Just to clarify, when you said:

Teaching in your own E-LSA is on a case-by-case basis and usually very restrictive (e.g. RV-12 transition training in an area where no S-LSA aircraft exist)

I'm assuming you meant "E-LSA", at the end, right? I actually took transition training last week in a S-LSA (N317VA).

You certainly make a good case in favor of the E-LSA, thank you.

Finally, would you mind sharing where you had N713 painted, and how much that cost? It looks pretty awesome, congrats!

 

[rot]

Maintenance costs for the SLSA can be significant as even the simple service bulletins require a LSRM or A&P to comply.

Another good point @jrtens (Jon), thank you. I'll make sure to add that to my list of things to consider.

 

[scottmillhouse]

Hey @rcarsey (Rob), thank you so much for your valuable insight. Even though I am a Computer Engineer, I wouldn't feel very confident messing with the avionics on the -12, at least not at first. Do you think $5,000 is enough to have the GPS 175 installed? (apart for the cost of the unit cost itself, of course). I would probably have the central console panel done somewhere (Superior Panels in Austin, TX looks like a solid option) so that it's mounted properly.

Thank you so much for adding all the details re. the 3 different approaches for the Instrument Check Ride, I'll make sure to run this by my CFI to make sure he agrees, and accepts that the GTN 650 is NOT absolutely needed. I would much rather have a second G3X Screen (GDU 460) than the fully featured and seldom used GPS/COM. Plus, I'd prefer to keep the GTR200.

Just to clarify, when you said:



I'm assuming you meant "E-LSA", at the end, right? I actually took transition training last week in a S-LSA (N317VA).

You certainly make a good case in favor of the E-LSA, thank you.

Finally, would you mind sharing where you had N713 painted, and how much that cost? It looks pretty awesome, congrats!

Not familiar with aa G3X installation but for Dynon a GPS 175 is fairly easy, add ARINC-429 interface module, another network cable, the GPS 175 cabling, the additional Garmin GPS antenna with cable, power fuse, TOGO switch if desired and of course cutting and/or rearranging the panel. Total cost about $6000 and about 40 hours work. Just installed on my old 7 and thinking of adding to the 12 I'm currently building once certified. Once you have the basics, then you have to decide if you want backups like a second ADAHRS module, heated pitot (on 12 must move to wing) and other redundancy.

 

[rot]

Not familiar with aa G3X installation but for Dynon a GPS 175 is fairly easy, add ARINC-429 interface module, another network cable, the GPS 175 cabling, the additional Garmin GPS antenna with cable, power fuse, TOGO switch if desired and of course cutting and/or rearranging the panel. Total cost about $6000 and about 40 hours work. Just installed on my old 7 and thinking of adding to the 12 I'm currently building once certified. Once you have the basics, then you have to decide if you want backups like a second ADAHRS module, heated pitot (on 12 must move to wing) and other redundancy.

Thank you @scottmillhouse (Scott) for that information. I'm starting to lean towards the E-LSA.... and go the GPS 175 route.

 

[scottmillhouse]

Remember once you have your LSA repair certificate you can do anything you want to the plane, as long as it meets LSA criteria, unlike the other RVs (and S-LSA) where you have to be the builder or have an A&P involved. On the 7 a good portion of the time was spent to totally remove the panel, cut and rearrange and reinstall. On the 12 the center portion is removable so a new piece can be purchased, cut for 175, finished and quickly replaced. Likewise the wiring is fully accessible once the front top fuselage cover is removed.

 

[Mel]

Remember once you have your LSA repair certificate you can do anything you want to the plane, as long as it meets LSA criteria, unlike the other RVs (and S-LSA) where you have to be the builder or have an A&P involved. On the 7 a good portion of the time was spent to totally remove the panel, cut and rearrange and reinstall. On the 12 the center portion is removable so a new piece can be purchased, cut for 175, finished and quickly replaced. Likewise the wiring is fully accessible once the front top fuselage cover is removed.

Just for clarification; For E-LSA and E-AB, the repairman certificate only allows you to perform the Condition Inspection. Any and all maintenance and modifications may be done by anybody. Obviously with E-LSA, a modification may not take the aircraft out of LSA parameters.

 

[N8DAV8R]

Hey @rcarsey (Rob), thank you so much for your valuable insight. Even though I am a Computer Engineer, I wouldn't feel very confident messing with the avionics on the -12, at least not at first. Do you think $5,000 is enough to have the GPS 175 installed? (apart from the cost of the unit cost itself, of course). I would probably have the central console panel done somewhere (Superior Panels in Austin, TX looks like a solid option) so that it's mounted properly.

An important nuance to this that I'm not sure I see mentioned in the various pathways in this thread, is that you aren't going to be able to add a navigator to a non IFR S-LSA. There is not a documented path for that upgrade. It is not plug-and-play like adding a second G3X. If this is what you intend to do with a S, you'll need to change it to an E.

 

[rot]

Just for clarification; For E-LSA and E-AB, the repairman certificate only allows you to perform the Condition Inspection. Any and all maintenance and modifications may be done by anybody. Obviously with E-LSA, a modification may not take the aircraft out of LSA parameters.

Thanks for pointing that out @Mel.

Maybe I should have mentioned this in the original post. I'm still in my late thirties, and I'm a relatively busy person with a full-time job, so I really don't see myself doing my own Condition Inspections, let alone any actual modifications, so for me, the real true advantage of the E-LSA is to be able to bring it through some morning fog, legally. My ideal scenario would be that I could get the IFR version from Tango Flight and have it already painted, but since that is not an option...

I think for me it really boils down to how much I can recoup from my original "investment" in the next few years (24-36 months). I will probably end up switching to a -10 or similar down the line, or going to ATP, at which point I don't think I'll flying the -12iS much.

Do you think an IFR-capable E-LSA with a GPS 175 and a second EFIS ($157k) has better potential to hold its value compared to the S-LSA with a GTN 650Xi and second EFIS ($220k)? It's ~$63k difference (before taxes). S-LSA are more scarce since Van's can only produce so many (~3/month), but some E-LSA owners seem to be asking a lot for theirs too, which is understandable based on the recent increases to the kits prices as well.

(sigh)

 

[N8DAV8R]

Thanks for pointing that out @Mel.

Maybe I should have mentioned this in the original post. I'm still in my late thirties, and I'm a relatively busy person with a full-time job, so I really don't see myself doing my own Condition Inspections, let alone any actual modifications, so for me, the real true advantage of the E-LSA is to be able to bring it through some morning fog, legally. My ideal scenario would be that I could get the IFR version from Tango Flight and have it already painted, but since that is not an option...

I think for me it really boils down to how much I can recoup from my original "investment" in the next few years (24-36 months). I will probably end up switching to a -10 or similar down the line, or going to ATP, at which point I don't think I'll flying the -12iS much.

Do you think an IFR-capable E-LSA with a GPS 175 and a second EFIS ($157k) has better potential to hold its value compared to the S-LSA with a GTN 650Xi and second EFIS ($220k)? It's ~$63k difference (before taxes). S-LSA are more scarce since Van's can only produce so many (~3/month), but some E-LSA owners seem to be asking a lot for theirs too, which is understandable based on the recent increases to the kits prices as well.

(sigh)

My opinion, is that it will be hard for anyone to really answer this for you. There are too many fact-based compromises one way or the other. Resale is a tough thing to nail down and it may be that the best advice for you is to de-prioritize the resale point and accept that no matter what you're dealing with false precision. Maybe more important to focus on finding a good airplane. Even a factory plane can have flaws, or be poorly maintained, or even modified into an illegal configuration without anyone realizing it (it has happened). A kit built plane could be done be more experienced builders than the factory. There are wildcards. Look for an airplane that has been well maintain, with good records, maybe in a color you like or still un-painted.

Generally a better idea to shop for the airplane that you want to own and fly than it is to shop for the airplane that you think makes for a good investment.

 

[FabricGATOR]

My opinion, is that it will be hard for anyone to really answer this for you.

Generally a better idea to shop for the airplane that you want to own and fly than it is to shop for the airplane that you think makes for a good investment.

Did someone say 'airplane' and 'investment' in the same post?

Towards the beginning I think it was OP 'rot' that made mention of buying for $xxx K and reselling for $xxx K+$ well let us not confuse what exactly 'profit' is...
Profit: is how much you sell something for MORE than what it is going to take to replace it with a 'like object'...

Susan came to me in the housing boom and said "Wow, look how much my house is worth, I think I am going to sell it and 'take the profit'..."
"Sue, honey, then where are we going to live and how much are we going to have to pay for the neighbors house across the street?"

What has already begun to crush the SLSA is Rotax
I love the machine, I am a big fan of the 912i$... but I don't appreciate the irony of them painting them John Deere green.

 

[Dugaru]

My CFI thinks I should get a GTN650 instead of a GPS 175, but that's ~$6,600 difference ($11,800 vs $5,200)

Your CFI is nuts. Why line up for that depreciation hit when the 175 does the job perfectly well? Heck, I’d be looking for a used 400W.

 

[Amadeus]

Your CFI is nuts. Why line up for that depreciation hit when the 175 does the job perfectly well?

It is much more than just $6,600 difference (My CFI thinks I should get a GTN650 instead of a GPS 175, but that's ~$6,600 difference ($11,800 vs $5,200)) as the GPS175 can use the already installed GPS antenna whereas the GTN650 will use the existing GPS antenna BUT it will also need to have the additional antenna routed and installed and also requires an audio panel to be purchased and installed.

If you are having this work done for you then count on around $4,500 - $5,000 labor for the GPS175 and $14,000 - $15,000 for the GTN650.

 

[AviatorMav]

$125K for a single screen Dynon, VFR -12iS isnt bad considering the cost increases recently from Vans. The kits alone are ~$135k.

 

[NORDO Industries LLC]

How is the audio routed on the aircraft as it's currently being built? At least with my Dynon setup, the GTR200 handles intercom duties, so if you're adding a GTN650, you'd need an audio panel as well.

 

[BobTurner]

Hey @rcarsey (Rob), thank you so much for your valuable insight. Even though I am a Computer Engineer, I wouldn't feel very confident messing with the avionics on the -12, at least not at first. Do you think $5,000 is enough to have the GPS 175 installed? (apart from the cost of the unit cost itself, of course). I would probably have the central console panel done somewhere (Superior Panels in Austin, TX looks like a solid option) so that it's mounted properly.

Thank you so much for adding all the details re. the 3 different approaches for the Instrument Check Ride, I'll make sure to run this by my CFI to make sure he agrees, and accepts that the GTN 650 is NOT absolutely needed. I would much rather have a second G3X Screen (GDU 460) than the fully featured and seldom used GPS/COM. Plus, I'd prefer to keep the GTR200.

Just to clarify, when you said:



I'm assuming you meant "E-LSA", at the end, right? I actually took transition training last week in a S-LSA (N317VA).

No, he meant S-LSA. The E-LSA must operate under experimental rules, which in general forbid using your airplane for compensation, e.g., you may not use your E-LSA to give instruction to others for hire. You (a cfi) may give instruction for hire to someone in their airplane (this was the subject of the rule squabble/LODA ‘fix’ a few years ago). There is a waiver (LODA) available for you (a cfi) to give instruction for hire in your airplane, but it is limited to ‘type specific transition training’ and only when no other options exist (e.g. there are no S-LSA rv12’s available), which is why the poster said it’s of very limited usefulness. BTW, most insurance companies want an extra premium if you do use your plane for training others.

 

[BobTurner]

BTW, the faa changed their interpretation of the rules several years ago, so now it is supposed to be possible to get an instrument rating with just the G175 - no vor or ILS needed. But not all designated examiners have gotten the message, and the current ACS is not crystal clear either. The issue revolves around how you interpret ‘two different approaches’.