Van's Air Force
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Priced out of the RV market
- Thread starter Jjackh10
- Start date
Desert Rat
Well Known Member
I don't think thats a valid comparison. Everybody who's vocal on here is all about Vans and would gladly fly a RV10 over a Cirrus or Bonanza, but thats not representative of the GA community as a whole.
When given the choice between a new RV10 or a 10 year old Cirrus with decent avionics and a mid time engine for a comparable price, most people would choose the Cirrus.
Other that the extremely gratifying experience of building it, one of the biggest draws to kit planes has always been that you can get the same features and performance as certified for less money. Once that cost delta goes away, so will a lot of the customer base who couldn't care less about building, they just want go fast as cost effectively as possible.
When given the choice between a new RV10 or a 10 year old Cirrus with decent avionics and a mid time engine for a comparable price, most people would choose the Cirrus.
Other that the extremely gratifying experience of building it, one of the biggest draws to kit planes has always been that you can get the same features and performance as certified for less money. Once that cost delta goes away, so will a lot of the customer base who couldn't care less about building, they just want go fast as cost effectively as possible.
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It can still be done
If you have the desire to build and are willing to do the work yourself rather than hire it out, you can still finish an RV for a reasonable price.
I'm just finishing my 9A and was able to complete it for much less than you might think. Got a fair price on a project that someone gave up on a year and a half ago. Steam gauges, fixed pitch prop, used mid/high time engine, and painted it
myself.
Don't price yourself out by demanding expensive bells and whistles. They're not necessary.
If you have the desire to build and are willing to do the work yourself rather than hire it out, you can still finish an RV for a reasonable price.
I'm just finishing my 9A and was able to complete it for much less than you might think. Got a fair price on a project that someone gave up on a year and a half ago. Steam gauges, fixed pitch prop, used mid/high time engine, and painted it
myself.
Don't price yourself out by demanding expensive bells and whistles. They're not necessary.
I think it's pretty clear that the company wasn't as profitable as they thought it was, and the mistakes over the last few years just exacerbated how close to the wire they were running.
No kidding. The guy wants the ex wife, the 100k truck, and the Ducati...but he thinks the problem is that aviation is too expensive for the normal guy.
Priced out of building?
When I started flying my RV-6, I thought all the worry was over.
One flight plans a trips, takes off, cruising toward the destination, and the weather changes. Unable to reach planned destination you divert to another airport.
Hail is forecast for overnight. A hangar is available so you park in the hangar. Overnight hangar for transient aircraft have had a large range of prices ranging from no charge with fuel purchase, to $5, $10, $15, $25 per night and one airport wanted $100 for one night.
You take off on your trip and find out the when you make your first stop that had cheap fuel that they are now out of gas and you need to go somewhere else.
It has been my experience that finding out that I cannot afford a flight before I take off is much better than finding out that I cannot afford it after I have started it.
The only constant in life is change. We do not grow old without planning for change.
Inflation and price changes have been around my entire working life. Now that I am retired, I still do not like it any more than I did when I was working but it is part of life and I deal with it.
When I started flying my RV-6, I thought all the worry was over.
One flight plans a trips, takes off, cruising toward the destination, and the weather changes. Unable to reach planned destination you divert to another airport.
Hail is forecast for overnight. A hangar is available so you park in the hangar. Overnight hangar for transient aircraft have had a large range of prices ranging from no charge with fuel purchase, to $5, $10, $15, $25 per night and one airport wanted $100 for one night.
You take off on your trip and find out the when you make your first stop that had cheap fuel that they are now out of gas and you need to go somewhere else.
It has been my experience that finding out that I cannot afford a flight before I take off is much better than finding out that I cannot afford it after I have started it.
The only constant in life is change. We do not grow old without planning for change.
Inflation and price changes have been around my entire working life. Now that I am retired, I still do not like it any more than I did when I was working but it is part of life and I deal with it.
Walt
Well Known Member
No kidding. The guy wants the ex wife, the 100k truck, and the Ducati...but he thinks the problem is that aviation is too expensive for the normal guy.
N8DAV8R, you totally took the OP's post out of context, that's not what he said at all...
Maybe that's what you wanted to hear, but that's not what he said.
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Thanks Walt, it was your post that I was trying to add context to here. N8DAV8R totally missed my point. The ex wife reference was meant as that's not an expense. I drive a 2015 truck (needed for work) many miles each year. It needs to be replaced, I just had to replace the engine in ($26k) it instead of spending $100k on a new one. The trans, ball joints and everything else are on borrowed time.
My back of the napkin estimate for a budget RV-7 ends up around $100k.
That's $20k per year for a 5 year build with no further price increases. Doable, but an average upper middle class person would have to give up everything else and hope for no unexpected bills (like my truck engine).
Karee Brinlee
Active Member
Well,
Today even with the new pricing you could do it for 100K for a basic 7. Slow build. Of course a QB is north of that.
If I were looking to build one today I would just buy a QB build someone gave up on. Might get it for a song.
KB
[reference to non-VAF site deleted per VAF rules; S.Buchanan]
Today even with the new pricing you could do it for 100K for a basic 7. Slow build. Of course a QB is north of that.
If I were looking to build one today I would just buy a QB build someone gave up on. Might get it for a song.
KB
[reference to non-VAF site deleted per VAF rules; S.Buchanan]
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Another approach
Let me propose a more constructive approach to the dilemma many builders are about to experience.
Many of us with flying RVs, whether built or bought flying, have continuously upgraded components of our airplanes. And lots of those removed components are sitting in our hangars gathering dust.
I propose that we all conduct an inventory of what is on our shelves and decide what is serviceable and might be of interest to a "budget builder". Some have chosen budget building from the start and others might now be forced into that mentality to continue their build.
If a significant number of our shelf items start showing up for sale at very reasonable prices (or even give away) we might be able to save some of these current projects from extinction.
And from the other side of the problem, current builders should reconsider if all the shiny new parts are really necessary, and perhaps start posting want ads for lower cost alternatives.
In my RV lifetime I have purchased a flying RV4 and a flying RV8. During each of these ownerships, I have spent about 50% of the original purchase price in upgrading the aircraft over many years. It has taken me 7 years to make my purchased flying RV8 the airplane of my dreams. It didn't start out that way because I couldn't afford it. But I got there. You can too. It's worth it.
Let me propose a more constructive approach to the dilemma many builders are about to experience.
Many of us with flying RVs, whether built or bought flying, have continuously upgraded components of our airplanes. And lots of those removed components are sitting in our hangars gathering dust.
I propose that we all conduct an inventory of what is on our shelves and decide what is serviceable and might be of interest to a "budget builder". Some have chosen budget building from the start and others might now be forced into that mentality to continue their build.
If a significant number of our shelf items start showing up for sale at very reasonable prices (or even give away) we might be able to save some of these current projects from extinction.
And from the other side of the problem, current builders should reconsider if all the shiny new parts are really necessary, and perhaps start posting want ads for lower cost alternatives.
In my RV lifetime I have purchased a flying RV4 and a flying RV8. During each of these ownerships, I have spent about 50% of the original purchase price in upgrading the aircraft over many years. It has taken me 7 years to make my purchased flying RV8 the airplane of my dreams. It didn't start out that way because I couldn't afford it. But I got there. You can too. It's worth it.
Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
I don't know the current status of when digital or paper plans will be available but here are links for the RV-4 and RV-6:
https://store.vansaircraft.com/rv-4-usb-flash-drive-plans-manual-fd-plans-rv-4.html
https://store.vansaircraft.com/rv-6-6a-usb-flash-drive-plans-manual-fd-plans-rv-6-6a.html
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Do you know if those plans are the complete plans to fabricate parts and build for scratch, or are they like what I got on the thumb drives for the RV-8 and RV-14, which just gives you enough info to assembly the parts supplied by Van's?
I don’t think the drawings were provided (I never received them) for the supplier made parts like weldments (rudder peddles, engine mounts, flap mechanism, control stick assembly, canopy frame, etc), fiberglass parts (cowl, wing tips, tail fairings, wheel pants), or canopy. Many of those parts already have aftermarket suppliers but not all. You maybe able to go to Vans suppliers directly but they are neck deep in making stuff for Van.
If there really is a demand for a more budget-friendly kit (like the RV's used to be), I have no doubt the market will (eventually) fill it. There already are cheaper ways to get in the sky. Maybe the real problem is that there aren't that many people with the desire to build a simple, honest, no-frills airplane. Clearly the demand has shifted to $50k paint jobs and $100k panels as the pilot population gets older (which generally means more affluent). The guys who built on a budget 50 years ago can finally afford to go big, but they aren't being replaced by new 20-somethings with an itch to build.
Just my thoughts, as somebody who built a budget 9A in my 30's, and was always the youngest person at any EAA meeting by a couple decades.
Chris
Just my thoughts, as somebody who built a budget 9A in my 30's, and was always the youngest person at any EAA meeting by a couple decades.
Chris
You think EAA chapters are predominantly old guys? You should see the classic car clubs! I'm in one (mostly for the bimonthly mag) for my classic, and the *average age* is around 75.
Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
I'm looking at my RV-6 dwg #50 and it shows all the dimensions and tubing callouts for the engine mount. Likewise the rudder pedal and flap weldment dwgs show dimensions. The canopy frame might require some build-to-fit....but hey.....I had to do that with the pre-fabbed frame that came with the kit!
But someone with the shop skills to scratch-build an RV can fill in the gaps for the fiberglass parts just as countless builders of other types of aircraft have done over the decades.
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RV-6 kit
In recent months I've seen several posts for uncompleted RV-6 kits, and one of them saying "why can't I sell this?" Which amazes me frankly, because that's a fantastic airplane (yes I'm biased). Not as easy to put together as the newer fancy-schmancy stuff with all the holes drilled (or laser-punched - eck). But I believe the trend towards more and more being done for the builder has not only contributed to the price of kits going up but also taken away from the educational aspect of aircraft building. Do that and paint it yourself, get a used engine, put in minimal avionics.
EDIT: I was just scanning some earlier posts, and saw Dan Morris' (RVDan) who said pretty much the same thing, likely more eloquently. So, I probably didn't need to post but good to know I'm not the only one thinking this.
In recent months I've seen several posts for uncompleted RV-6 kits, and one of them saying "why can't I sell this?" Which amazes me frankly, because that's a fantastic airplane (yes I'm biased). Not as easy to put together as the newer fancy-schmancy stuff with all the holes drilled (or laser-punched - eck). But I believe the trend towards more and more being done for the builder has not only contributed to the price of kits going up but also taken away from the educational aspect of aircraft building. Do that and paint it yourself, get a used engine, put in minimal avionics.
EDIT: I was just scanning some earlier posts, and saw Dan Morris' (RVDan) who said pretty much the same thing, likely more eloquently. So, I probably didn't need to post but good to know I'm not the only one thinking this.
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Tankerpilot75
Well Known Member
EAB aircraft demand will continue
I’m extremely sympathetic to those in our RV community who have had to endure the paint primer problem and the LCP issue. Let’s face it, Van’s has let a lot of folks down and it will take time for the RV community to regain the trust and confidence that Vans once enjoyed. They should be ashamed!
However, I do think people who get into EAB aviation, either by building their own aircraft or (as in my case) purchasing an EAB aircraft, do so not only because the initial barrier to entry is lower but also for the joy of flying. Let’s be honest, the cost of ownership is still definitely cheaper than the certified world. Yes, it’s becoming significantly more expensive to build an RV, and certainly it’s more expensive to fly and maintain an aircraft today than just a few years ago; but EAB’s are still less expensive to own and operate than a 50 year old Cessna, Bonanza or Piper. And an old certificated aircraft is not a good investment most of the time.
My condition inspection still averages less than $1,000, my insurance is still under $2,000/year and a typical one and a half hour flight still is under $75. I seldom hear of a certified aircraft’s annual inspection costing under $2,500; aviation insurance is at least equal in price to mine or greater; and an hour an a half in one normally consumes at least $50 more fuel. I also suspect that when it comes time to sell, my RV7A will provide a significant return on my investment.
My first home purchase in 1976 was $33,000. Today that same home just recently sold for over $230,000 and would cost over $400,000 to build new. I only have two aviation friends who are definitely 1%’ers. The rest are like me and have to make choices between new cars or airplane support. Are people getting priced out? Definitely! That’s one reason we have a world wide pilot shortage. Hopefully those people who will be making the decision to accept the higher build cost will do what’s in their own best interest. I do suspect that those who accept the higher price will be able to sell their kits if they subsequently decide they can’t continue their build and not lose their money.
I’m extremely sympathetic to those in our RV community who have had to endure the paint primer problem and the LCP issue. Let’s face it, Van’s has let a lot of folks down and it will take time for the RV community to regain the trust and confidence that Vans once enjoyed. They should be ashamed!
However, I do think people who get into EAB aviation, either by building their own aircraft or (as in my case) purchasing an EAB aircraft, do so not only because the initial barrier to entry is lower but also for the joy of flying. Let’s be honest, the cost of ownership is still definitely cheaper than the certified world. Yes, it’s becoming significantly more expensive to build an RV, and certainly it’s more expensive to fly and maintain an aircraft today than just a few years ago; but EAB’s are still less expensive to own and operate than a 50 year old Cessna, Bonanza or Piper. And an old certificated aircraft is not a good investment most of the time.
My condition inspection still averages less than $1,000, my insurance is still under $2,000/year and a typical one and a half hour flight still is under $75. I seldom hear of a certified aircraft’s annual inspection costing under $2,500; aviation insurance is at least equal in price to mine or greater; and an hour an a half in one normally consumes at least $50 more fuel. I also suspect that when it comes time to sell, my RV7A will provide a significant return on my investment.
My first home purchase in 1976 was $33,000. Today that same home just recently sold for over $230,000 and would cost over $400,000 to build new. I only have two aviation friends who are definitely 1%’ers. The rest are like me and have to make choices between new cars or airplane support. Are people getting priced out? Definitely! That’s one reason we have a world wide pilot shortage. Hopefully those people who will be making the decision to accept the higher build cost will do what’s in their own best interest. I do suspect that those who accept the higher price will be able to sell their kits if they subsequently decide they can’t continue their build and not lose their money.
It was definitely not out of context. You may have meant it figuratively, but the 100k truck and the Ducati are the opportunity costs that you decided to include when you raised the subject. That's how financial decision making works, most of us have to make some choice. You are not priced out, you're just doubting whether it's worth passing up the 100k truck and the Ducati, along with putting in all the time. I had similar choices. I'm driving the 2015 truck and flying my airplane. No Ducati. I'm happy with that, and encourage you to stick with the same plan.
Stop talking yourself out of it and start the build. Don't let the "poor me" (again, your words) take over, because as you describe things you don't need to do that.
The price change is a dark cloud, but it's a marginal increase that you can probably manage. You mentioned in your earlier post that you don't think many will convert to new orders, but it was stated (under oath) this morning that they already have 60% conversion on the first 500 letters sent out. Nothing certain, but it's a strong indicator that they'll make the 70%. I don't mention this to be argumentive, rather it's to encourage you to consider that a lot of people are seeing the silver lining. Hopefully you can too.
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Observation from the sidelines ...
There is a lot of wisdom interspersed in this thread (all of VAF) and it may become a dangerous trend. Old guys (folks) who have accomplished the goal and now enjoy the fruits of their sacrifices and hard work throwing out 'free' advice to the new entrants to 'I want to fly, and think I can build an airplane, younger generation'.
*Yes, I soloed in '72, and quit because it was an opportunity cost. Get married, or learn to fly on a an Airman's wage, $144/month. Doubled to $288 by '73, plus another stripe on the sleeve." Oh, yes, still married to the same good woman after 51 years. Yes, 'opportunity costs' are a real thing, one can't be here and there at the same time, so to speak. We choose our battles when we can, and try to envision the path of our lives, seen from the other end of time.
I was blessed with a re-do 32 yrs later, finished my PPL, and then, and only then, realized that renting a spam-can Cherokee was NOT what flying was about. Decided to 'build my own airplane' ... how hard can THAT be? Only took another decade. 2nd-hand RV-6A 'Quick Build' orphan ... Fuselage, Wings, AND empennage, stored by the first owner for NINE yrs, after he built a rudder, a seat-back, and floor pans. THEN HE QUIT, it was TOO HARD?
By then it cost $4K 'premium' for a QB option on a Fuselage, and another $4K for a Wing kit, and there were no more QB empennage options. I paid $12K for all THREE kits, and broke every piggy bank in the house to do it. After all, how hard can it be to build an airplane? (Seller didn't stay informed on Vans price increases over the 9 yrs). He just wanted to 'recover his cost' (from 1997) that he spent on the kits.
Yes, it STILL took 10+ yrs to scratch together a used R22 J2A 0-360 with only 750 SMOH, for $7K, and 'life' still got in the way. (Two house remodels, one move.) ... no flying either. I was 'building my own airplane'. All the wiring was custom, for a Vertical Power Electronic CB, and eventually scratched together the early Dynon Classic 10" ... and piece by piece, an all-Dynon panel.
10 yrs of blood, sweat and tears. Opportunity costs ... gave up cars with warranties, did my own maintenance. Worked 80-90 hrs many weeks, for many months, and "ate what I brought, not what I bought" lunches. Opportunity costs must be paid.
Kits today that clecoe together in a few hrs or days? Wonderful advantage, perfectly matched pre-punched components that need only to be dimpled, or countersunk? Tinker Toys, and Lincoln Logs, (sorry ... toys of the 1950's), ... today's kits are MARVELS of technology and manufacturing. Wiring HARNESSES? What joys ... Santa Claus in every box!!
Marvels of the future, in our hands today? ADS-B, in-flight almost real-time Weather? AutoPilots that guide us through 100's of joyous flying hrs, and flight plans on cell phones and tablets?
I'm grateful, truly and deeply grateful for the opportunity to be a part of this flying community. VAF and the shared wisdom and technological advances that are shared, enjoyed, sold and re-sold. Gifted and shared.
YES!! It's a Wonderful world, and I'm thrilled to be One Small Part of It (paraphrased from Statler Bros song). And, a salute to Jimmy Stewart and our favorite Christmas movie, "It's a Wonderful Life" ... It's a Wonderful 'airplane' Life. Thanks for the Memories, may your 'opportunity costs' be joyous and bright!
There is a lot of wisdom interspersed in this thread (all of VAF) and it may become a dangerous trend. Old guys (folks) who have accomplished the goal and now enjoy the fruits of their sacrifices and hard work throwing out 'free' advice to the new entrants to 'I want to fly, and think I can build an airplane, younger generation'.
*Yes, I soloed in '72, and quit because it was an opportunity cost. Get married, or learn to fly on a an Airman's wage, $144/month. Doubled to $288 by '73, plus another stripe on the sleeve." Oh, yes, still married to the same good woman after 51 years. Yes, 'opportunity costs' are a real thing, one can't be here and there at the same time, so to speak. We choose our battles when we can, and try to envision the path of our lives, seen from the other end of time.
I was blessed with a re-do 32 yrs later, finished my PPL, and then, and only then, realized that renting a spam-can Cherokee was NOT what flying was about. Decided to 'build my own airplane' ... how hard can THAT be? Only took another decade. 2nd-hand RV-6A 'Quick Build' orphan ... Fuselage, Wings, AND empennage, stored by the first owner for NINE yrs, after he built a rudder, a seat-back, and floor pans. THEN HE QUIT, it was TOO HARD?
By then it cost $4K 'premium' for a QB option on a Fuselage, and another $4K for a Wing kit, and there were no more QB empennage options. I paid $12K for all THREE kits, and broke every piggy bank in the house to do it. After all, how hard can it be to build an airplane? (Seller didn't stay informed on Vans price increases over the 9 yrs). He just wanted to 'recover his cost' (from 1997) that he spent on the kits.
Yes, it STILL took 10+ yrs to scratch together a used R22 J2A 0-360 with only 750 SMOH, for $7K, and 'life' still got in the way. (Two house remodels, one move.) ... no flying either. I was 'building my own airplane'. All the wiring was custom, for a Vertical Power Electronic CB, and eventually scratched together the early Dynon Classic 10" ... and piece by piece, an all-Dynon panel.
10 yrs of blood, sweat and tears. Opportunity costs ... gave up cars with warranties, did my own maintenance. Worked 80-90 hrs many weeks, for many months, and "ate what I brought, not what I bought" lunches. Opportunity costs must be paid.
Kits today that clecoe together in a few hrs or days? Wonderful advantage, perfectly matched pre-punched components that need only to be dimpled, or countersunk? Tinker Toys, and Lincoln Logs, (sorry ... toys of the 1950's), ... today's kits are MARVELS of technology and manufacturing. Wiring HARNESSES? What joys ... Santa Claus in every box!!
Marvels of the future, in our hands today? ADS-B, in-flight almost real-time Weather? AutoPilots that guide us through 100's of joyous flying hrs, and flight plans on cell phones and tablets?
I'm grateful, truly and deeply grateful for the opportunity to be a part of this flying community. VAF and the shared wisdom and technological advances that are shared, enjoyed, sold and re-sold. Gifted and shared.
YES!! It's a Wonderful world, and I'm thrilled to be One Small Part of It (paraphrased from Statler Bros song). And, a salute to Jimmy Stewart and our favorite Christmas movie, "It's a Wonderful Life" ... It's a Wonderful 'airplane' Life. Thanks for the Memories, may your 'opportunity costs' be joyous and bright!
bk1bennett
Well Known Member
I am building a -14A, and I'll agree that the kit is vastly, vastly easier than building from scratch (how do you build an airplane without jigs? Van's knows), but I think it's hyperbolic to liken it to a giant lego set. You still have to do a lot of the same work that every kit builder has to do, and to me, it is difficult stuff -- the plexiglass, the engine mounting and fuel plumbing, the fiberglass, the antennas and sensors -- that requires new and unique skills that go way beyond the highly repetitive aluminum work. Yes, the sheet metal parts go together faster and easier with a -14 than with a -6, but there is still a lot of time and expense for the systems parts to get installed. It is still a daunting undertaking!
I think the big ways to save money are changing a little. For example, a lot of people told me that using steam gages would save money, but I am not finding that to be true. (And the glass panels are vastly more reliable). Of course, re-using steam gages is a different story. That said, you can save money by not putting in a fancy interior, not doing an elaborate paint job, and not upgrading all the systems to a higher level. But let's face the hard fact that regardless of what you do in today's market, it's going to be expensive.
Totally agreed. Further to what you said, it's not necessarily true that it takes a lot more effort for Van's to build the pieces. As far as I know, they are using CNC machines and other automated technology. This isn't like the old days. They're not sitting there manually drilling out each hole and using hand tools to shape and cut the parts. Modern manufacturing processes can produce most of these parts quickly and with a lot less costly labor than before.
It's just the same garbage that's been put out there for years...you're not a REAL builder if you didn't [do what I did].
From the way some of these guys talk, you'd think they mined their own bauxite and smelted their own aluminum.
Other examples: you're not a REAL pilot if you don't fly a taildragger; you're not a REAL doctor if you didn't put in 48 hour shifts as an intern; you're not a REAL southerner if you use instant grits...
CaptPausert
Active Member
Another thing everyone needs to consider. The biggest issue with aviation in general is the incredibly small market. Some statistics I saw recently said that Ford alone makes over 1.7 million cars and trucks per year that is over 4500 per day for just Ford. I don't think that Lycoming makes that many engines in a year.
Everything is about efficiencies of scale. If you only order a few hundred or even few thousand of something per year the prices are going to be really high as it takes a lot of cost and effort to tool up to make a small run.
We had a plastic part on an Airforce jet that was breaking after many years of service and when we went out to buy them we asked for a quote to make 200 of them. the vendor came back asking you mean 200,000 right? nope 200. So the price per part ended up being something like $50k each for 200.
The point of all of this is we need to do everything we can to encourage more people to be involved in our hobby not less as the fewer people building aircraft the more expensive everything is going to get and it is possible that the market could get so small as to collapse completely.
Improved kit designs that are easier to build is one of the things that really helps to improve the size of the potential market. There are just not a lot of people ready to start a 10-15 year project to build an airplane.
Not sure what it would take but I would really like to see EAA put together a team of engineers and finance guys to look at what could be done to reduce the cost and effort required to get into homebuilt aircraft. We need to make some effort in this regard otherwise even those who currently don't have a problem with paying the prices we see now may find themselves priced out of the market in the not too distant future.
Everything is about efficiencies of scale. If you only order a few hundred or even few thousand of something per year the prices are going to be really high as it takes a lot of cost and effort to tool up to make a small run.
We had a plastic part on an Airforce jet that was breaking after many years of service and when we went out to buy them we asked for a quote to make 200 of them. the vendor came back asking you mean 200,000 right? nope 200. So the price per part ended up being something like $50k each for 200.
The point of all of this is we need to do everything we can to encourage more people to be involved in our hobby not less as the fewer people building aircraft the more expensive everything is going to get and it is possible that the market could get so small as to collapse completely.
Improved kit designs that are easier to build is one of the things that really helps to improve the size of the potential market. There are just not a lot of people ready to start a 10-15 year project to build an airplane.
Not sure what it would take but I would really like to see EAA put together a team of engineers and finance guys to look at what could be done to reduce the cost and effort required to get into homebuilt aircraft. We need to make some effort in this regard otherwise even those who currently don't have a problem with paying the prices we see now may find themselves priced out of the market in the not too distant future.
Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
That effort began over twenty years ago when the Sport aircraft initiative began. It is obvious what that gave us..............
Priced out
Just a data point.
Two years ago I finished my RV-4 for less than $20K after working on it for 3 or 4 years.
Old, old RV-4 project I hauled home in 2007. Missing spar splice steel plates. Areas in the fuselage had to be redone. Missing nuts and bolts etc., etc. Wings, flaps and ailerons unstarted. Spent a week or two getting the protective plastic off of the canopy.
Neighbor sold me a brand new Mazda RX-8 crate engine for $1,000 from his abandoned RV-8 project.
Got a 2.85:1 gear reduction drive for about $3,000 (could have gotten one cheaper if I had waited for a better deal to show up). Engine controller and monitor for less than $500. Had to design and weld up my own engine mount (using part of the RV-4 stock engine mount).
Got an old (over propped) Performance Propeller that had never been sent back for finishing for $700.
Dynon D-100 EFIS in panel. (Too expensive at $1,500, should have waited for the $750 deal on VAF for a D-10A.)
Still not painted -- just alodined, plan to vinyl-wrap; any year now.
My point is, if you want to build and fly an RV and have the time and patience, being "priced out" is hardly an excuse.
Sure, if you want a brand new aircraft engine, a new matched hole aircraft kit, expensive paint job and the latest-and-greatest glass panel, yep then you may be "priced out". But then you're priced out from what you had planned or wanted to build and not from building and flying an RV.
Finn
Just a data point.
Two years ago I finished my RV-4 for less than $20K after working on it for 3 or 4 years.
Old, old RV-4 project I hauled home in 2007. Missing spar splice steel plates. Areas in the fuselage had to be redone. Missing nuts and bolts etc., etc. Wings, flaps and ailerons unstarted. Spent a week or two getting the protective plastic off of the canopy.
Neighbor sold me a brand new Mazda RX-8 crate engine for $1,000 from his abandoned RV-8 project.
Got a 2.85:1 gear reduction drive for about $3,000 (could have gotten one cheaper if I had waited for a better deal to show up). Engine controller and monitor for less than $500. Had to design and weld up my own engine mount (using part of the RV-4 stock engine mount).
Got an old (over propped) Performance Propeller that had never been sent back for finishing for $700.
Dynon D-100 EFIS in panel. (Too expensive at $1,500, should have waited for the $750 deal on VAF for a D-10A.)
Still not painted -- just alodined, plan to vinyl-wrap; any year now.
My point is, if you want to build and fly an RV and have the time and patience, being "priced out" is hardly an excuse.
Sure, if you want a brand new aircraft engine, a new matched hole aircraft kit, expensive paint job and the latest-and-greatest glass panel, yep then you may be "priced out". But then you're priced out from what you had planned or wanted to build and not from building and flying an RV.
Finn
wirejock
Well Known Member
Southerner
Hold on there pardner!
Kidding of course. Use whatever grits you want as long as I get some. Love me some grits. Definately Southern. No instant, but it won't stop me from eating them! Born in the most Southern city in TX, but consider myself more of a Cajun.
I actually agree with all of it 100%. My little wheel is in front, and it's all mine.
Hold on there pardner!
Kidding of course. Use whatever grits you want as long as I get some. Love me some grits. Definately Southern. No instant, but it won't stop me from eating them! Born in the most Southern city in TX, but consider myself more of a Cajun.
I actually agree with all of it 100%. My little wheel is in front, and it's all mine.
pjc
Well Known Member
Your car would cost $200k too if it was constructed one-at-a-time by amateurs at home using hand tools from a kit of components produced by a cottage industry. If you want costs to go down we need manufacturing at scale (like Ford say, or even Cessna at one time). That’s a big dollar capital requirement. If only Elon Musk were inspired by airplanes instead of rockets …
PaulvS
Well Known Member
Tried some grits one time when I was in Houston, hmmm, it's one of those things you probably need to grow up with... (it tasted kinda bland)
Back on track with RV building cost. Yes, it has become more expensive, even to complete an older unpunched (RV-6A) kit. The Lycoming engine and avionics are significant components. My mid-time engine was less than AUD$10k (20 years ago) and it is going to cost about that much now just to overhaul the carb and mags and fuel pump.
There are less expensive kits than RVs, e.g. Sonex and Zenith, they don't use Lycoming. So there are still ways to build and fly and have fun. Maybe not IFR with a full G3X panel, but better than feeling stuck on the ground.
Back on track with RV building cost. Yes, it has become more expensive, even to complete an older unpunched (RV-6A) kit. The Lycoming engine and avionics are significant components. My mid-time engine was less than AUD$10k (20 years ago) and it is going to cost about that much now just to overhaul the carb and mags and fuel pump.
There are less expensive kits than RVs, e.g. Sonex and Zenith, they don't use Lycoming. So there are still ways to build and fly and have fun. Maybe not IFR with a full G3X panel, but better than feeling stuck on the ground.
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Piper J3
Well Known Member
The EAA was started the year I was born - 1953. I imagine the FAA saw very little liability in letting folks build tube and fabric airplanes in their garage at home. Mechanix Illustrated - “Build this plane for under $800 including engine!”
Fast forward to today with composite and pre-punched aluminum airframes, and I bet if the FAA had to make the same decision today, the outcome might be different.
Best to count our blessings and learn to adapt….
Fast forward to today with composite and pre-punched aluminum airframes, and I bet if the FAA had to make the same decision today, the outcome might be different.
Best to count our blessings and learn to adapt….
wirejock
Well Known Member
Mechanics Illustrated
I don't remember reading the articles, but I do remember my dad dreamed about it. He wanted to build so bad, but he was a single wage earner and supporting a family. We weren't poor, but that wasn't in the budget. He never spoke if it, but I knew. He passed when I was 24.
Fast forward, the apple didn't fall far. I always dreamed of building my own airplane. I wish he could see.
I'm reminded of my favorite Jim Croce song, I Got A Name.
And I carry it with me like my daddy did
But I'm livin' the dream that he kept hid
I don't remember reading the articles, but I do remember my dad dreamed about it. He wanted to build so bad, but he was a single wage earner and supporting a family. We weren't poor, but that wasn't in the budget. He never spoke if it, but I knew. He passed when I was 24.
Fast forward, the apple didn't fall far. I always dreamed of building my own airplane. I wish he could see.
I'm reminded of my favorite Jim Croce song, I Got A Name.
And I carry it with me like my daddy did
But I'm livin' the dream that he kept hid
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BLittleton
Active Member
Whenever I take on a new student for flight training, I make only 2 guarantees.
1. It will NEVER again be as cheap to fly as it is TODAY. (So start NOW!!)
2. Flight training (like building an airplane) will take longer, and cost more that you could ever imagine.
I haven't been wrong yet.
1. It will NEVER again be as cheap to fly as it is TODAY. (So start NOW!!)
2. Flight training (like building an airplane) will take longer, and cost more that you could ever imagine.
I haven't been wrong yet.
Piper J3
Well Known Member
How beautiful.... My father flew B-17H in WWII. He taught me to fly when I was in high school in '70. I have his "Flight Wings" that my mother pinned on him displayed on the instrument panel in my RV-12. He would have loved the plane....
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Roadjunkie1
Well Known Member
Heratige.....
My Dad instructed in Ryans and Stearmans during WWII. I have the wings that were on his uniform lapel on my Piper hat! The wings on his hat and on his left breast are on my shelf with the pipes, including the one in this picture! He would love that I fly a J-3 Cub (he learned in an Interstate) and fly an RV-4. What goes around......
My Dad instructed in Ryans and Stearmans during WWII. I have the wings that were on his uniform lapel on my Piper hat! The wings on his hat and on his left breast are on my shelf with the pipes, including the one in this picture! He would love that I fly a J-3 Cub (he learned in an Interstate) and fly an RV-4. What goes around......
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