Opinions and Experience w/ 3.125" Backup PFD / EFIS

[gmcjetpilot]

I am looking at a back up to my primary EFIS, for light IFR. Right now I only have one EFIS, if I don't include my ADS-B AHAR and iPad EFB... that would be desperate if that was all you had.

Criteria:

• Panel mount (not portable) with / Static input
• 3.125" hole and size of bezel under Approx 3.8
• Min PFD Function (Attitude, Airspeed, Alt, Heading)
• Nav info a bonus but not required.

The ones I can think of.​

• Garmin G5
• uAvionics AV-30
• AvMap Ultra EFIS

I use a G5 in two planes I teach in. If going with panel mounted TSO Garmin GPS probably a good bet for compatibility. Price looks good but by the time you add the ala carte extras it drives cost up. Overall a nice unit for the price and can display PFD or HSI mode.

uAvionics AV-30 has matured. No NAV in early models. Not sure if they have added NAV, but that is OK. I gave some dual in a C177 with a AV30 with no magnetometer. Did not hold heading and was headed to avionics shop for installation of magnetometer. In fact a non Cert version was installed (before he bought plane) and had to upgrade the the AV-30.

Th AvMap Ultra EFIS, intrigues me as a pure backup. It has backup basic Nav data and a HSI, all self contained, ideal for an emergency IFR Nav... Any one have a review. Price is right as well.

Many good "Mini EFIS" that don't fit in a 3.125" hole but are compact....

 

[edhunter]

I have the AV30 w/ external mag. I like it. It's a backup to my Advanced panel... Completely independent.

 

[BobTurner]

GRT is re-engineering their mini-EFIS to fit in a 3 1/8” hole (square bezel is larger)

 

[FORANE]

Don't discount the D3. It works well for me. I also have a G5 in addition to my primary EFIS. D3 on the right and G5 on the left. Something about blue over brown is easier for my brain to interpret in IMC than the primary EFIS screen; this seems especially true with those screens widespread on the panel. My peripheral vision sees those 2 screens almost like looking out the canopy on a clear day.

I don't see the need for nav on a backup EFIS. A backup EFIS role for me is to keep the shiny side up. My tablet has its own backup battery and serves the nav role.

 

[rleffler]

I have a G5 as a backup. AFS supports using the G5 as a third adahrs, which makes a great tie breaker.

 

[Dugaru]

I don't see the need for nav on a backup EFIS. A backup EFIS role for me is to keep the shiny side up. My tablet has its own backup battery and serves the nav role.

Same here. I had to get home one night using only a G5 (on backup battery) and an iPad, and it was super easy to do. Could also have used my phone for navigating.

 

[Pdp7427]

I’m not certain but might a GI275 fit your criteria, and maybe provide additional functionality?

 

[jclark]

I am looking at a back up to my primary EFIS, for light IFR. Right now I only have one EFIS, if I don't include my ADS-B AHAR and iPad EFB... that would be desperate if that was all you had.

Criteria:

• Panel mount (not portable) with / Static input
• 3.125" hole and size of bezel under Approx 3.8
• Min PFD Function (Attitude, Airspeed, Alt, Heading)
• Nav info a bonus but not required.

The ones I can think of.​

• Garmin G5
• uAvionics AV-30
• AvMap Ultra EFIS

I use a G5 in two planes I teach in. If going with panel mounted TSO Garmin GPS probably a good bet for compatibility. Price looks good but by the time you add the ala carte extras it drives cost up. Overall a nice unit for the price and can display PFD or HSI mode.

uAvionics AV-30 has matured. No NAV in early models. Not sure if they have added NAV, but that is OK. I gave some dual in a C177 with a AV30 with no magnetometer. Did not hold heading and was headed to avionics shop for installation of magnetometer. In fact a non Cert version was installed (before he bought plane) and had to upgrade the the AV-30.

Th AvMap Ultra EFIS, intrigues me as a pure backup. It has backup basic Nav data and a HSI, all self contained, ideal for an emergency IFR Nav... Any one have a review. Price is right as well.

Many good "Mini EFIS" that don't fit in a 3.125" hole but are compact....

What EFIS do you currently have?

Dynon and GRT also make "mini" units although the **current** GRT model does not fit in a 3.125" hole (they have one in the works per their website).

If you want a basic PFD only and want to save $$, there are some used Dynon D10A's available (I think that I have one ) or new units that will fit the bill.

If you have GRT stuff, their "mini" offers the ability to switch between PFD, MAP, and ENGine modes. This makes it very useful for every flight and not just for when you needed a backup PFD.

So .... it really depends on the level of compatibility with your current installation that you want modulo the "use case" you desire.

Plenty of options. ALL good!!

 

[blaplante]

360avionics ELM300 https://www.360avionics.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=51

 

[Walt]

I’m not certain but might a GI275 fit your criteria, and maybe provide additional functionality?

This would be my suggestion as well, a bit on the pricy side but a fantastic instrument.
Has a built-in data base and VFR GPS, of course has it's own battery as well.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Thanks everyone. That 360avionics ELM300 is interesting blaplante.

I’m not certain but might a GI275 fit your criteria, and maybe provide additional functionality?

This would be my suggestion as well, a bit on the pricy side but a fantastic instrument.
Has a built-in data base and VFR GPS, of course has it's own battery as well.

Garmin GI275 is VERY nice. Was not aware. Thanks for the panel eye candy pics Walt. NICE! Yep nice but overkill and too much dinero. Also I am not using G3X. I suspect Garmin being Garmin (proprietary) it may not be as handy and accept 3rd party inputs. I do plan on a Garmin GPS175 navigator. I'd likely go G5 before a GI275. However my main need for this instrument is keeping the plane upright, attitude instrument flying, AI, AS, ALT, Slip Skid.

What EFIS do you currently have?

Dynon and GRT also make "mini" units although the **current** GRT model does not fit in a 3.125" hole (they have one in the works per their website).

If you want a basic PFD only and want to save $$, there are some used Dynon D10A's available (I think that I have one ) or new units that will fit the bill.

If you have GRT stuff, their "mini" offers the ability to switch between PFD, MAP, and ENGine modes. This makes it very useful for every flight and not just for when you needed a backup PFD.

So .... it really depends on the level of compatibility with your current installation that you want modulo the "use case" you desire.

Plenty of options. ALL good!!

Yep, I have a GRT Horizon 10.1, Touch, Pitch/Roll Autopilot, AOA, IFR, Remote TT22, Remote digital magnetometer, Safe-Fly RAIM GPS... Planning on a Garmin GPS175 navigator.

Thank you, I am aware of the new MINI coming out. Likely the new Mini will be a good fit physically, can use existing digital magnetometer and Safe-Fly GPS, and input from EIS for engine info. Also not to be discounted, less learning curve of installation, set up and operation. It is way more than I "need" but if it makes sense this is a likely choice. However it's not out and I asked. Sometime in 2024. I can wait. I can even cut holes and put wiring in... if they have that info out. Of course I have backup battery. What I fear is the screen going blank. Not likely but IMC with no attitude is a bad thing.

That is an option, and appreciate your pointing out. I did not bring it up as I wanted to see what else is out there. The new GRT Mini will have more functionality, both ENGINE and NAV. My barebones OH NO MY EFIS went blank, is backup PFD attitude is also on table. For NAV can use Garmin GPS175 for lateral (no LPV) and iPad EFB (with ADS-B and AHAR) for reference. For engine info I have EIS display in panel. I am in a holding pattern and will be talking to GRT before making a purchase.

RELATEED NOTE... WHAT BACK UP DO YOU NEED FOR IFR. I am going to start another thread.

What Backup Do You NEED for your IFR EFIS in EAB Kit Plane.

This video link was well done. FAR's are not totally clear on back up instruments for EAB kit planes. In Certified planes the requirement is in the TSO for the certified EFIS. Large jets with 4 displays and redundancy have small backup standby instruments, but then again it is a transport...

vansairforce.net

 

[jclark]

Thanks everyone. That 360avionics ELM300 is interesting blaplante.



Garmin GI275 is VERY nice. Was not aware. Thanks for the panel eye candy pics Walt. NICE! Yep nice but overkill and too much dinero. Also I am not using G3X. I suspect Garmin being Garmin (proprietary) it may not be as handy and accept 3rd party inputs. I do plan on a Garmin GPS175 navigator. I'd likely go G5 before a GI275. However my main need for this instrument is keeping the plane upright, attitude instrument flying, AI, AS, ALT, Slip Skid.



Yep, I have a GRT Horizon 10.1, Touch, Pitch/Roll Autopilot, AOA, IFR, Remote TT22, Remote digital magnetometer, Safe-Fly RAIM GPS... Planning on a Garmin GPS175 navigator.

Thank you, I am aware of the new MINI coming out. Likely the new Mini will be a good fit physically, can use existing digital magnetometer and Safe-Fly GPS, and input from EIS for engine info. Also not to be discounted, less learning curve of installation, set up and operation. It is way more than I "need" but if it makes sense this is a likely choice. However it's not out and I asked. Sometime in 2024. I can wait. I can even cut holes and put wiring in... if they have that info out. Of course I have backup battery. What I fear is the screen going blank. Not likely but IMC with no attitude is a bad thing.

That is an option, and appreciate your pointing out. I did not bring it up as I wanted to see what else is out there. The new GRT Mini will have more functionality, both ENGINE and NAV. My barebones OH NO MY EFIS went blank, is backup PFD attitude is also on table. For NAV can use Garmin GPS175 for lateral (no LPV) and iPad EFB (with ADS-B and AHAR) for reference. For engine info I have EIS display in panel. I am in a holding pattern and will be talking to GRT before making a purchase.

RELATEED NOTE... WHAT BACK UP DO YOU NEED FOR IFR. I am going to start another thread.

Given your configuration which is similar to mine (GRT 10.1, GARMIN Navigator, TRIG TT22, etc.) I can say for sure that the ease of installation and buttonolgy will be a plus with the GRT Mini.

The part that is a "hidden value" though is how it integrates with the 10.1 *and* can drive the AP servos if needed (depending on the model) plus what I list next.

During the life of the plane, I have NOT had to use the Mini as a "backup" (so far), but I *have* used it to do some combination of pull up Waypoint Details, Set Altimeter, monitor engine or map when the big screen was set for PFD only on EVERY flight.

 

[Ed_Wischmeyer]

When you say back up, what system failure(s) are you contemplating? On my Garmin G3X Touch system, there are several possibilities:
* Display failure, covered by a right side big screen and a G5, all on the CANbus
* CANbus failure, but a serial line backup connects the ADHRS to the PFD. I would lose NAV from the IFR GPS, but would still have the touchscreen's intermal GPS. I would lose engine displays
* ADHRS failure. The G5 takes care of that, but I would lose OAT, wind, stall warning, and AOA. Then again, one bug in the right place on the Pitot tube and I'd lose IAS and AOA both. And I find that IAS does everything I need, and only use AOA for flight test. Yes, I know...
* Static source failure. I don't have an alternate static source, but I always display GPS altitude. If I ever need to use it, tell ATC and fly 500' higher.
* Total electrical failure. On an IPC, I once flew an approach using the G5 (with extra battery backup for four hours power) and a handheld aera 660 GPS with geo-referenced approach plates. Not that big a deal except that the highest workload came from the lack of engine instruments for setting power. Lack of trim was a nuisance, and lack of flaps was a so what since I occasionally practice no flap landing. (Paul Dye at one point commented that landing without electric trim should be part of Phase 1 flight test. By extension, the failure modes I've listed should also be part of Phase 1. And if you bought your RV already flying, as I did, there's a lot that's probably undocumented. Doing that documentation and flight test sure beats a two hour checkout.)

So when you're contemplating backup, what failure mode(s) are you backing up? Just plopping in an extra attitude indicator might or might not cover your bases. I've spent a fair amount of time thinking about this, and I've not seen (that I can recall) any factory documentation or discussion of same. And those backup modes ought to be in your onboard documentation. (I have all the backup serial lines listed in the back of the checklist.)

 

[gmcjetpilot]

When you say back up, what system failure(s) are you contemplating? On my Garmin G3X Touch system, there are several possibilities:
* Display failure, covered by a right side big screen and a G5, all on the CANbus
* CANbus failure, but a serial line backup connects the ADHRS to the PFD. I would lose NAV from the IFR GPS, but would still have the touchscreen's intermal GPS. I would lose engine displays
* ADHRS failure. The G5 takes care of that, but I would lose OAT, wind, stall warning, and AOA. Then again, one bug in the right place on the Pitot tube and I'd lose IAS and AOA both. And I find that IAS does everything I need, and only use AOA for flight test. Yes, I know...
* Static source failure. I don't have an alternate static source, but I always display GPS altitude. If I ever need to use it, tell ATC and fly 500' higher.
* Total electrical failure. On an IPC, I once flew an approach using the G5 (with extra battery backup for four hours power) and a handheld aera 660 GPS with geo-referenced approach plates. Not that big a deal except that the highest workload came from the lack of engine instruments for setting power. Lack of trim was a nuisance, and lack of flaps was a so what since I occasionally practice no flap landing. (Paul Dye at one point commented that landing without electric trim should be part of Phase 1 flight test. By extension, the failure modes I've listed should also be part of Phase 1. And if you bought your RV already flying, as I did, there's a lot that's probably undocumented. Doing that documentation and flight test sure beats a two hour checkout.)

So when you're contemplating backup, what failure mode(s) are you backing up? Just plopping in an extra attitude indicator might or might not cover your bases. I've spent a fair amount of time thinking about this, and I've not seen (that I can recall) any factory documentation or discussion of same. And those backup modes ought to be in your onboard documentation. (I have all the backup serial lines listed in the back of the checklist.)

All of the above. YES, you are right, depends. If I'm IMC I want at least 2 independent systems for most critical items to get on ground safely. All your great questions are out of scope of thread, backup instrument. See thread below and comment there. I have a link to a good video on topic.

Legally in experimental you do not need redundant flight instruments, Nav, Com. Not good idea but legal in EAB aircraft. See this thread:

What Backup Do You NEED for your IFR EFIS in EAB Kit Plane.

This video link was well done. FAR's are not totally clear on back up instruments for EAB kit planes. In Certified planes the requirement is in the TSO for the certified EFIS. Large jets with 4 displays and redundancy have small backup standby instruments, but then again it is a transport...

vansairforce.net

 

[Flying Canuck]

I have experience with both the AvMap Ultra EFIS and the G5, in the context of getting my plane equipped for IFR (Canada). I replaced my AvMap with the G5 primarily based on the following statement from the Transport Canada inspector who was handling my removal of VFR only condition.

Also, the Disclaimer and warnings section of the AvMap Ultra EFIS User and Installation Manual mentions a few things: “The information displayed by the ultra is not certified for use for VFR or IFR flights.” And “ All critical information is presented for reference only and must be verified by the user. The Ultra is not a substitute for on-board instruments.” - may be a factor in demonstrating how this can be used and is safe.

I liked the AvMap, but it was too simple to qualify as a backup instrument in my case. Again, this is Canada, I can't speak to the US rules. The G5 is a fantastic device once you get the configuration figured out, it's also not a bad value.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

I have experience with both the AvMap Ultra EFIS and the G5, in the context of getting my plane equipped for IFR (Canada). I replaced my AvMap with the G5 primarily based on the following statement from the Transport Canada inspector who was handling my removal of VFR only condition.



I liked the AvMap, but it was too simple to qualify as a backup instrument in my case. Again, this is Canada, I can't speak to the US rules. The G5 is a fantastic device once you get the configuration figured out, it's also not a bad value.

Great comment and insight. I see Canada Inspector did too much reading. Ha ha. Well again to the "consensus" of the thread and my opinion, no back up is needed in EAB in USA as it is for certified planes. Others point out just follow the rules for certified planes to be safe. That is fine, but most EFIS going into EFB's are not STC'ed, so why would the back-up need to be. . So even if the manual says REF ONLY (yes back up reference), that applies to my GRT EFIS and likely the Garmin G3X and Dynon Skyview. These EFIS do not have bona fide FAA STC TSO credential like a G1000 for example. I don't think the G3X can go in certified planes. So to me this comment in the AvMap manual is moot. However you can't argue with "The Man". Another inspector may have been fine with it, may be? However the "inspector" may just need to be educated? Could be ignorant of the topic. It happens. Push back and they might concede AvMap is OK? I have heard all kind of demands over the years regarding thinks like ELT antenna location by inspectors. They may be right? This may be unique for Canada, but some times DAR or FAA (US or Canada), who are individuals, put opinion over regulations.

I suspect the G5 is a "better" instrument. By better it's by the leader in GA avionics, good support, and the G5 comes in a certified version. You assume you benefit from the rigor or that process to get STC approval. The AvMap I believe has some European LSA approval I recall. No doubt the AvMap ULTRA can get you on the ground in IMC. I don't think USA it is a problem calling the AvMap ULTRA a back-up, but individual inspectors are well.... individuals. Again back up is not needed (but a really good idea) in EAB aircraft as they are for Certified Part 23 planes. It stems from the TSO for EFIS approved for GA certified planes. It specifies back up instruments. That is why you see the Pitot Static, TC or T&B instruments being retained, i.e., 4 of the 6 pack, also known as partial panel.

I believe (correct me if I am wrong gang) a builder can change the operating limitation to IFR without re-inspection or Phase 1, as long the aircraft meets the FAR for IFR flight.
"“After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with § 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only.”"
Ref: https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-bu...ions/equipping-a-homebuilt-for-ifr-operations

builder post Phase 1 can fly night and IFR if so equip (and proper pitot/static test). The limitation only means Phase 1 must be flown day VFR, even if plane is equip and legal for Night/IFR during phase 1. There is no need to go back to the FAA and ask for new limitations in the USA, unless they had LIMITS written differently. It happens.

Your positive comment on AVMAP Ultra is appreciated. I am interested in it. (Is yours for sale?) I looked at the manual and the wiring and description was not great. I just sent an email to AvMap yesterday, in Italy. I will see how long it takes to get a quality response. It really checks all my boxes for a basic backup PFD to keep the sunny side up, with some NAV capability, low cost and totally independent. Also on the list and waiting, the new GRT Mini. Although it fits in 3.125" hole, the bezel is 4" wide. I can do it, but it is a full blown EFIS and the cost will be higher, but being compatible with the GRT Horz 10.1 I have it may be the way to go. I can split the magnetometer and GPS data from the existing GRT Horz 10.1. I may look for the older MINI since I am cutting the panel and not restricted with 3.125" hole.

The G5, AvMap and GRT Mini are on the short list. Thanks again.

 

[mburch]

I don't think the G3X can go in certified planes.

G3X Touch™ for Certificated Aircraft

 

[gmcjetpilot]

G3X Touch™ for Certificated Aircraft

G3X is certified? Oh. Cool, AML-STC approved like the G5.... It can go into many GA planes under 6000 lbs...

EDIT: Circa 2019... 5 yrs behind the times...

Garmin G3X Touch: Wide-Reaching STC - Aviation Consumer

Proof is the newly approved G3X Touch installed in a Grumman Tiger that I flew for this report. In case you missed the announcement, the flagship G3X Touch integrated glass panel came from the company's experimental line, but in the course of a year Garmin earned an STC via an approved model...

www.aviationconsumer.com

 

[Flying Canuck]

Your positive comment on AVMAP Ultra is appreciated. I am interested in it. (Is yours for sale?) I looked at the manual and the wiring and description was not great.

No doubt the G5 is the better unit, but I did like the AVMAP Ultra EFIS. I actually miss one feature, you could use an airport or other named navigation like a virtual VOR and display distance and bearing for it. I used that for flying 25NM circles around my home base. Not that it couldn't be done with other devices, the Ultra makes it easy.

Yes, I'd consider selling my Ultra. I'll send you a message once I figure out what I want for it.