Ease of entry vs. insurance premium

[Ed_Wischmeyer]

With a total knee replacement coming up in just under a month, it was time to look at options with easier ease of entry than the RV-9A. The obvious candidate was a Glasair Sportsman 2+2. It's roomier than the RV-9A, has a high wing for better sightseeing, is a nice handling machine, burn a little more than the O-320, but is maybe 20 knots slower than the -9A. The 2+2 kit is also expensive, and the company was recently sold overseas to, you guessed it, China.

A this point, I've got about 1,300 RV hours, CFII/ATP and all that, and three (count 'em) hours in Glastars of all types, writing pilot reports.

The insurance company also wants ten hours of checkout. I could probably see the entire envelope in three hours, but... and I don't know where I'd find a CFI. Probably cheaper to fly one in to Savannah...

Insurance quote for me for a Glastar Sportsman 2+2, with a hull value 50% more than the RV-9A, is (drum roll, please) a tad more than four times the RV-9A premium.

There's advantages to flying RVs...

 

[MacCool]

With a total knee replacement coming up in just under a month, it was time to look at options with easier ease of entry than the RV-9A. The obvious candidate was a Glasair Sportsman 2+2. It's roomier than the RV-9A, has a high wing for better sightseeing, is a nice handling machine, burn a little more than the O-320, but is maybe 20 knots slower than the -9A. The 2+2 kit is also expensive, and the company was recently sold overseas to, you guessed it, China.

A this point, I've got about 1,300 RV hours, CFII/ATP and all that, and three (count 'em) hours in Glastars of all types, writing pilot reports.

The insurance company also wants ten hours of checkout. I could probably see the entire envelope in three hours, but... and I don't know where I'd find a CFI. Probably cheaper to fly one in to Savannah...

Insurance quote for me for a Glastar Sportsman 2+2, with a hull value 50% more than the RV-9A, is (drum roll, please) a tad more than four times the RV-9A premium.

There's advantages to flying RVs...

Anecdote, not data....I've had two total knees, two revision total knees, and a right quadriceps tendon repair for a complete tear. I have/had no problem climbing up into my -9A after the recovery periods, although not as effortlessly as I might have been able to do when I was 30.

 

[texdog]

Me too, both knees and a broken foot, st getting in the 6A at 80.

 

[Dugaru]

With a total knee replacement coming up in just under a month, it was time to look at options with easier ease of entry than the RV-9A. The obvious candidate was a Glasair Sportsman 2+2. It's roomier than the RV-9A, has a high wing for better sightseeing, is a nice handling machine, burn a little more than the O-320, but is maybe 20 knots slower than the -9A. The 2+2 kit is also expensive, and the company was recently sold overseas to, you guessed it, China.

A this point, I've got about 1,300 RV hours, CFII/ATP and all that, and three (count 'em) hours in Glastars of all types, writing pilot reports.

The insurance company also wants ten hours of checkout. I could probably see the entire envelope in three hours, but... and I don't know where I'd find a CFI. Probably cheaper to fly one in to Savannah...

Insurance quote for me for a Glastar Sportsman 2+2, with a hull value 50% more than the RV-9A, is (drum roll, please) a tad more than four times the RV-9A premium.

There's advantages to flying RVs...

I used to have a share of a Sportsman. It’s a terrific airplane. A buddy of mine now owns the whole thing and flies it a lot. He’s a CFII, also, but lives up in NY so that’s probably not much help.

Key fact: the Sportsman is NOT an easy aircraft to ingress/egress. The front seat is high up, especially in taildragger configuration, and the stick REALLY gets in the way. Be sure to try one on before buying/building.

Good luck with the knee!!

 

[JP4]

Five years into a total knee and that's the most functional part of my body! Seriously, if you are otherwise in decent shape, the knee won't be the limitation. You will be turning the clock back 20-30 years once that is healed, it really is an amazing difference. Flexibility of the rest of my body is the limiting Factor climbing in and out of airplanes. Climbing into my Rans S-7 is just as challenging as getting into a top loading airplane for me, as it's a little more of a gymnastics exercises.
That Glasair does look sweet though!

 

[pczar3]

Five years after both knees were done. I have been in RV6, RV7, P51, and other planes without trouble. I think you would miss your RV.

 

[edhunter]

Ed, there's a beautiful Sportsman just south of Charlotte for sale. Both nose wheel and taildragger gear. Rear facing rear seat, owned by CFII. I seriously considered it, but a bit out of my price range at 229K. FYI, Gallagher quoted me 12K per year for insurance! My -9A costs me $1600 per year. That sortof sealed the deal for me.

 

[BobTurner]

Keep in mind insurance companies love time in type, of which you have near zero. IIRC my 10 hr time in type insurance for the RV10 was more than twice as expensive as it is now.

 

[lawrence]

Ed: 83 yo rv pilot here with all the usual joint maladies. for me, tailwheel rv's are easier to enter/exit.
my rv-3 is much easier then my rv-6a that i flew for 23 years.
a step on a rv tailwheel may work best. just my experience,yours may differ.
some say a Glastar TW with 5" tires is very easy. just move the stick full forward when entering.
we are all different.

 

[Vansconvert]

Ed, after two knee replacements getting in and out of my 7A even with the easy exit bar was sketchy. So I bought a Glastar. It's an honest airplane but after flying a 7A I'm not exactly thrilled to fly it. Anyway as far as the insurance it was double what my 7A was and I had 10 or so hours in a combination of Glastars and Sportsman's. I asked the insurance broker why and was told that there are many more RVs than Glastars so they know what it takes to repair them and there are many more parts available as well.

 

[MacCool]

Getting in and, especially out, of an RV-6/7/9 easily is all about the quadriceps muscle, and if you're the pilot it's mostly about the right quadriceps. The quadriceps muscle is the one that will weaken the most from the recovery after a knee replacement and that weakness is what causes the most trouble getting in and out since you need it to power yourself up onto the step/wing as well as to push yourself up and back out of the seat to exit. There's absolutely no reason in the world that a typical knee replacement should impair getting in and out of an RV-6/7/9 as long as the pilot focuses on the post-op rehab. Diligent attention to quadriceps strength and knee range-of-motion is critical. I will say that an Anti-splat easy exit bar is a great thing too, even if your knees work well.

 

[Canadian_JOY]

Hmmm... this is indeed an interesting discussion, one in which my personal bias might become maybe just a little evident...

I have been fortunate to get some time in a number of RV's. Of them all, the 8A has proven the easiest for both ingress and egress. It's a matter of having both canopy rails available to make best use of all four limbs when jacking oneself up from the seated to the standing position.

With this having been said, our Sportsman is FAR easier to enter and exit than ANY RV. There's a "but" statement that has to be made here. Our Sportsman is on standard trike gear, and I have installed pop-out steps (they fit into the taildragger landing gear sockets that are an integral part of the 4130 steel tube "cage" that acts as the primary structure in the cockpit). The pop-out steps are a major ingredient in making entry easier, especially for folks like me who are not exactly long-legged.

By way of contrast, the Glastar on trike gear sits at least 2" lower than a Sportsman, thus many folks find it far easier to access a Glastar cockpit.

Now for the rest of the story... My wife LOVED sitting in the back seat of my friend's 8A, so much so that while still seated on her first test-fit she asked when I was going to order a kit! (Yeah, she's a keeper!) We ended up with the Sportsman (that story is too long to narrate here) and love the airplane. One of the things we like best about it is that my wife can still get into the airplane, even after suffering a very debilitating brain tumor which robbed her of most of the use of her left arm and leg. There is no way she would have been able to ingress, much less egress any RV, short of being hoisted in and out with a ceiling hoist.

On a funny note, the last time she flew with me she was suffering further debilitation from yet another brain tumor. She stood beside the Sportsman and realized there was no way she could get in. With necessity being the mother of invention, I quickly cobbled together a sheet of plywood atop a hydraulic motorcycle jack. We got her up onto the plywood, then I literally jacked her up to the point where she was level with the aircraft seat. Easy peasy!

On the topic of insurance, the Sportsman has a significantly higher hull value than the 2-seat RV's, if for no reason other than the higher initial build cost. Hull insurance cost is often a reasonably fixed percentage of hull value, thus a more expensive aircraft is going to cost more to insure for hull damage. Our Sportsman is insured for all risks at $250K, $2M smooth liability and costs about CAD$4500/year. This cost has been relatively flat from the time of first flight with 0 hours time-in-type.

 

[Vansconvert]

Hmmm... this is indeed an interesting discussion, one in which my personal bias might become maybe just a little evident...

I have been fortunate to get some time in a number of RV's. Of them all, the 8A has proven the easiest for both ingress and egress. It's a matter of having both canopy rails available to make best use of all four limbs when jacking oneself up from the seated to the standing position.

With this having been said, our Sportsman is FAR easier to enter and exit than ANY RV. There's a "but" statement that has to be made here. Our Sportsman is on standard trike gear, and I have installed pop-out steps (they fit into the taildragger landing gear sockets that are an integral part of the 4130 steel tube "cage" that acts as the primary structure in the cockpit). The pop-out steps are a major ingredient in making entry easier, especially for folks like me who are not exactly long-legged.

By way of contrast, the Glastar on trike gear sits at least 2" lower than a Sportsman, thus many folks find it far easier to access a Glastar cockpit.

Now for the rest of the story... My wife LOVED sitting in the back seat of my friend's 8A, so much so that while still seated on her first test-fit she asked when I was going to order a kit! (Yeah, she's a keeper!) We ended up with the Sportsman (that story is too long to narrate here) and love the airplane. One of the things we like best about it is that my wife can still get into the airplane, even after suffering a very debilitating brain tumor which robbed her of most of the use of her left arm and leg. There is no way she would have been able to ingress, much less egress any RV, short of being hoisted in and out with a ceiling hoist.

On a funny note, the last time she flew with me she was suffering further debilitation from yet another brain tumor. She stood beside the Sportsman and realized there was no way she could get in. With necessity being the mother of invention, I quickly cobbled together a sheet of plywood atop a hydraulic motorcycle jack. We got her up onto the plywood, then I literally jacked her up to the point where she was level with the aircraft seat. Easy peasy!

On the topic of insurance, the Sportsman has a significantly higher hull value than the 2-seat RV's, if for no reason other than the higher initial build cost. Hull insurance cost is often a reasonably fixed percentage of hull value, thus a more expensive aircraft is going to cost more to insure for hull damage. Our Sportsman is insured for all risks at $250K, $2M smooth liability and costs about CAD$4500/year. This cost has been relatively flat from the time of first flight with 0 hours time-in-type.

Do you have any pictures of the pop out steps?

 

[Ralph Ketter]

I'm still getting in and out of my RV6 after both total hip replacements and a bi-lateral (both at once) total knee replacement.
At almost 79 its not as easy as it was then I finished my plane in 2006. After recovery the joints don't hurt like they used to. I know some people don't recover as easily but I was typically back flying within 4-6 weeks after surgery.

 

[Ed_Wischmeyer]

I've got a month to practice getting in on the right side (right knee replacement). Fortunately, I've got good glass on both sides and have flown the plane a reasonable amount from the right seat. And I'll get to fly right hand stick like a real pilot!

 

[Ed_Wischmeyer]

Here's Ron Wanttaja's "Moron Baker" ejection seat. But will I get it done before surgery...

Do-It-Yourself Ejection Seat

Adding lift to the seat allows a builder to exit his Fly Baby easily (plus it’s virtually undetectable to bystanders).

www.kitplanes.com

Turns out there are all kinds small, rechargeable air pumps on amazon (not that I like giving them my business). Now I need to find an appropriate size inflatable bag to go under the seat cushion. After all, I'll only sit on it when it is deflated.

 

[danny]

All of these stories are inspiring. I'm putting off a knee replacement because my pooch is recovering from knee surgery and summer is near and I may be a little anxious.
I'm stealing some of the positive energy and moral support, thanks.
danny

 

[MacCool]

All of these stories are inspiring. I'm putting off a knee replacement because my pooch is recovering from knee surgery and summer is near and I may be a little anxious.
I'm stealing some of the positive energy and moral support, thanks.
danny

In my experience, the most common reaction after total knee replacement is "I should have done this sooner".

At my hospital here, total knee replacement (unilateral anyway) is 23-hour stay, sometimes same day. Modern joint surgery comes with a wide array of anesthetic blocks that prevent it for the first 36-48 hours. With my bilateral replacement, I can't say that I had any real pain at all until the blocks wore off, then joint stiffness is the biggest issue, not pain. I spent half an hour on a stationary bike 2-4 times per day. Used a walker for about a week, cane for additional two weeks, then back to work, back to flying at 30 days.

 

[lr172]

as long as the pilot focuses on the post-op rehab. Diligent attention to quadriceps strength and knee range-of-motion is critical.

Amen and OP please follow this advice. Just hit 6 weeks post-op on a rotator cuff repair (full tear Supra, partial tear infra). Hear all sorts of stories from folks that never got their range of motion back. That had me concerned until I started re-hab. Damn but some of that REALLY hurts. I now assume the poor ROM is from folks not sucking it up and accepting the pain necessary to get it back and doing the muscle rebuild work. I was shocked at how fast my muscles turned to jello from the immobilization.

Larry

 

[MacCool]

Amen and OP please follow this advice. Just hit 6 weeks post-op on a rotator cuff repair (full tear Supra, partial tear infra). Hear all sorts of stories from folks that never got their range of motion back. That had me concerned until I started re-hab. Damn but some of that REALLY hurts. I now assume the poor ROM is from folks not sucking it up and accepting the pain necessary to get it back and doing the muscle rebuild work. I was shocked at how fast my muscles turned to jello from the immobilization.

Larry

Post up rehab is an especially big deal after rotator cuff repair, made more complicated by the rather onerous 4-6 week (or more) brace that is usually prescribed and trickier because the shoulder joint has to move in multiple planes unlike the knee which only moves in one plane. With the rotator cuff repair post-op, there's a fine balance between the need for maintaining range of motion versus preventing motion that might disrupt the muscle/tendon repair. The rehab after total knee isn't nearly so difficult or painful as after rotator cuff surgery, and certainly no bracing is required. There's typically no muscular or tendon repair with total knee, so that knee is as strong and as immune to damage as it's going to be the moment the cement cures (minutes). Immobility isn't necessary nor desired. What pain there is is mostly due to post-op swelling and inflammation. I would parenthetically note that a total shoulder (reverse) is far less painful than repairing the rotator cuff.

Rehab after total knee is pretty straightforward and not particularly painful in my experience (depending largely on how hard you push it). The more the patient focuses on quadriceps strength and range of motion, the quicker the recovery will be. If no rehab is done afterward, everything will generally still heal just fine, it will just take longer.

 

[Ed_Wischmeyer]

There's another consideration -- many of my passengers are in my age bracket, namely, 70s. Few of them can get in the plane gracefully, or at all. Looks like I'll need a small plastic boarding step to help them reach the built-in steel step...

 

[alcladrv]

There's another consideration -- many of my passengers are in my age bracket, namely, 70s. Few of them can get in the plane gracefully, or at all. Looks like I'll need a small plastic boarding step to help them reach the built-in steel step...

Here is a boarding step I use for my -7A. The top is about even with the built-in step. While the lower "rungs" are not steps per se, they have easily supported my 220 lbs., for the short period of time I step on them, without deformation. I got it at Camping World some years back. It weighs 2.3 lbs.

 

[MacCool]

Here is a boarding step I use for my -7A. The top is about even with the built-in step. While the lower "rungs" are not steps per se, they have easily supported my 220 lbs., for the short period of time I step on them, without deformation. I got it at Camping World some years back. It weighs 2.3 lbs.

I used this when I had a right quadriceps repair and couldn't power myself up onto the wing from the step. It allowed me to get up onto the wing and I could pull the stool back up into the plane with some para cord tied to the handle. It didn't help me actually sit in the airplane, and did nothing to help me get out.

A stool, however, won't get one into the cockpit any sooner after a total knee. That's all about range of motion and about quadriceps strength, and getting out of the airplane is a bigger challenge than getting in. $10 from Amazon.

 

[Dugaru]

I used this when I had a right quadriceps repair and couldn't power myself up onto the wing from the step.

Those little folding stools are awesome. Super light and very strong.