What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Dynon not suporting autopilots?

J

jeff beckley

Well Known Member
I stopped several times throughout the show to look at Dynon D-100 and the HS34. I have a garmin GNS430 installed now with a blue mountain efis with autopilot that is not working out as promised. I want to keep the 430 and replace the the BMA stuff and I am leaning strongly toward the Dynon.
I want to integrate this combo with the trutrak DigiFlight II VSGV. I will be getting the WASS upgrade for the 430.
First few conversations with the guys at Dynon said that should work as long as I connected everything through HS34.
The last time I stopped by I asked some questions regarding how the D-100 would interface with the trutrak especially how the flight markers would show up and if any flight planing info from the 430 would be displayed on the D-100.
I was then told that Dynon would not be supporting any autopilots as they are coming out with there own. "whats this?" I asked... Another AP that is integrated with the EFIS? This is one reason that I wanted a separate AP so when the EFIS goes **** up it does not take out the AP.
The leading reason for going with Dynon is the fact that they have the D-100 out now and the HS-34 is right around the corner. Other products are months away and not yet been proven. "Not going to be a beta tester again"
Now I have been told that third party AP's are not going to be supported.
Bummer!!!
 
I'm a little confused Jeff

On the one hand you seem to be wanting to seperate the AP from the EFIS for redundancy but then you want to interface the D100 with the AP?

On my IFR setup the only connection I have is between the 430 and the Trutrak Pictorial Pilot (The PP gives redundant artificial horizon if the D100 goes blank), the marker beacons are on the audio panel.

What sort of connection were you looking for what this setup does not give you?

Frank 7a
 
That's one of the nice things about the GRT Horizon - it interfaces very well with the Tru Traks while maintaining separation. Either will work without the other, yet when you drive the A/P from the GRT, you get heading command capability from the moving map. If the GRT goes belly up, you throw a switch so that the Tru Trak is hooked to the 430, and off you go.

Paul
 
Yes Frank I do want separate systems. I have had the pleasure of flying an integrated system and have it fail. Never again! I do not know what Dynon is thinking or designing in their planed AP but I sure hope it has a fall back mode.
Blue Mountain does not and if anything is wrong with the EFIS then you will lose the AP as well. "Not Good"

Paul you mentioned that the trutrak could be run directly to the 430. What would be the connections? Analog,serial, or 429? Right now my 430 is standard. I have planed to go WASS soon but that might wait until I get the AP sorted out.

I really do not see why I need to have the AP fly the ILS glide slope at least vertically as I still need to control power and if anyone that flys the 6,7 or 9 can attest a stabilized approach is a combination of BOTH power and pitch. I cant see myself turning over the plane to the AP on final.
So what would be my options now?

Here is what I really want my EFIS and AP to do.
1. Follow a plan entered into the 430 both vertically and horizontally.
2. Have the EFIS display the deviation markers and waypoints and any info
the 430 provides
3. Have the EFIS act as a fully functional HSI slaved to the 430 with OBS
resolver
4. I want GPS steering and the ability to intercept the localizer and track
inbound but I will be most always be hand flying the vertical slope.
5. The AP must be separate from the EFIS.
 
Jeff -

You can probably get all your questions answered by giving Stein a call, but I can tell you that with my simple Pictorial Pilot, it uses RS-232 interfaces to both the the GRT and 430 - one or the other, with a selector switch. I do NOT have vertical guidance - I just have a simple Altrak, which I really like. Much like you, I like to hand-fly the vertical aspect of approaches - at the very least, it keeps me more in the loop.

Since I don't have the vertical capability, I really can't address those aspects of your question, but reading reports from other GRT users that do, the ARINC interface and a more sophisticated Tru-Trak does what you want - although I don't THINK (I could very well be wrong) that you will have vertical guidance if you connect directly to the 430.

GRT/Tru Trak/430 is a proven combination with plenty of redundancy - I use it every day!

Paul
 
Not an RV, but I have a 496, a D100, and a IIVS autopilot all working together seamlessly. The GPS gives data to the D100 and the TruTrak (NMEA at 9600 baud). True heading is displayed on the Dynon, as well as an HSI with glide slope. A pic of it all working together (the IIVS is below the D100 and is flying the plane GPS NAV).

jul07lake.jpg
 
First, some history:

We have never supported any autopilot systems. We are not removing any kind of support, and we have never promised support of any autopilot system.

Remember, this is a chicken and egg thing. Don't just assume your autopilot is sitting there waiting for info from us, and don't assume your autopilot sends out any data that we can use for a flight director or other info. We can't display or connect to what isn't there.

One of the reasons we do not support an other autopilots is that none of the popular homebuilt autopilots accept RS-232 signals that tell them to fly a heading. If we're wrong, please let us know, but please also ask your AP manufacturer to publish their protocol like we do with ours. Even more than just sending them a heading bug, I really, really doubt they send out info that allows an external device to display a flight director.

As far as I know, to get GRT to interface to the TruTraks, you need the ARINC-429 option and a high-end TruTrak, but this just allows you to fly a heading. We hope to support this as well with our HS34. The HS34 WILL send out altitude and heading bug labels using the ARINC-429 standard labels. If TruTrak, Trio, or some other autopilot pays attention to these labels, it will work. You'll need to talk to your AP manufacturer to find out if they support the ARINC standard labels or if they only use proprietary communications.

Finally, if Dynon does do an autopilot, redundancy will be easy. Just install two EFIS units. A D10A is not much bigger than standard autopilot control heads, and then you'll have two redundant EFIS units AND two AP control heads.

Jeff, from what you describe, what you want will work fine. Install a D100, a HS34, and ANY AP. Connect the HS34 to your 430, and you can do full CDI and GS indicators on the HSI or EFIS screens of your D100. Then hook your AP up as indicated by that manufacturer. The AP and the Dynon system won't "talk" to one another, but they won't interfere either. If you set the HSI up from the GPS side of the 430 on the D100 and then tell your AP to fly the same data, that will work fine. In a sense, the 430 is the center of this system, not your EFIS.
 
Last edited:
Please read the whole post - and don't criticise / bash other products

Dear "DynonSupport"

dynonsupport said:
One of the reasons we do not support an other autopilots is that none of the popular homebuilt autopilots accept RS-323 signals that tell them to fly a heading. If we're wrong, please let us know, but please also ask your AP manufacturer to publish their protocol like we do with ours. Even more than just sending them a heading bug, I really, really doubt they send out info that allows an external device to display a flight director.

As far as I know, to get GRT to interface to the TruTraks, you need the ARINC-429 option and a high-end TruTrak, but this just allows you to fly a heading. We hope to support this as well with our HS34. The HS34 WILL send out altitude and heading bug labels using the ARINC-429 standard labels. If TruTrak, Trio, or some other autopilot pays attention to these labels, it will work. You'll need to talk to your AP manufacturer to find out if they support the ARINC standard labels or if they only use proprietary communications.
Click to expand...

<rant>
Paul has stated in THIS thread that simple RS232 comms can be used for a TT AP and explained which model he is using. Secondly even if your Dynon product doesn't (currently) do something - I'm (like others I suspect) are getting a bit tired of the simple competition bashing / blame.....
</rant>

As far as I have tested / seen / researched:

The GRT Horizon 1 (and I think sport also) can generate standard AP NMEA0183B or GARMIN AVIATION heading control and also optionally provide 429 heading/vertical feeds.

The Garmin 430 (and I assume 530 and W versions) can generate NMEA / AVIATION GPS feeds and ARINC 429 steering.

The TT AP systems support standard AVIATION and NMEA AP heading control feeds and optionally ARINC 429 feeds for GPSS and/or GPSV steering.

What I'm really confident about is 430 + TT VSVG + GRT Horizon 1 w/ ARINC provides independent GPS steering w/ control of 2 axis AP - and have been for multple months (/years)....

A simple multi-pole switch can provide selection between 430 and GRT 'control' and if all control systems are lost, the TT products can provide independent Heading and/or altitude control based on internal magnetometer and Pitot/Static sensors.

As for Jeff's original problem, a TT with 430 will provide heading control. I don't think the 430 will provide vertical steering commands for GPS - it might for ILS feeds. The new W version is a different case - I haven't researched - WAAS isn't avialable here in NZ! :p

Regards,

Carl
 
jeff beckley said:
Paul you mentioned that the trutrak could be run directly to the 430. What would be the connections? Analog,serial, or 429? Right now my 430 is standard. I have planed to go WASS soon but that might wait until I get the AP sorted out.
Click to expand...
Don't wait too long. After September 30, '07 the WAAS upgrade on the 430 goes up from $1,500 to $3,000! Garmin says they are loosing money on it at $1,500.
 
Ironflight said:
Since I don't have the vertical capability, I really can't address those aspects of your question, but reading reports from other GRT users that do, the ARINC interface and a more sophisticated Tru-Trak does what you want - although I don't THINK (I could very well be wrong) that you will have vertical guidance if you connect directly to the 430.

GRT/Tru Trak/430 is a proven combination with plenty of redundancy - I use it every day!

Paul
Click to expand...
If you have one of the TruTrak VSGV (Vertical Speed, GPSS lateral and GPSS Vertical) and the ARINC option, you will be able to couple it directly to the 430W (ARINC) for ILS and RNAV (LNAV+V, LPV) approaches. The regular 430 (non-W) will only offer this for ILS approaches. Like Paul, I also prefer to hand fly the vertical portion of the approach so while I may install this, I may not use it much.
 
zkvii said:
Please read the whole post - and don't criticise / bash other products

Dear "DynonSupport"
<rant>
Paul has stated in THIS thread that simple RS232 comms can be used for a TT AP and explained which model he is using. Secondly even if your Dynon product doesn't (currently) do something - I'm (like others I suspect) are getting a bit tired of the simple competition bashing / blame.....
</rant>

Carl
Click to expand...
Carl,

I did not see anything in Dynonsupport response that would constitute "criticism or bashing", he just said
dynonsupport said:
"One of the reasons we do not support an other autopilots is that none of the popular homebuilt autopilots accept RS-323 signals that tell them to fly a heading. If we're wrong, please let us know,"...
Click to expand...
He did leave it open that he may not have all the information. Trust me, I'm extremely sensitive when vendors bash other products instead of talking about the features of their products. I don't think dynonsupport is guilty of this, in this case however.
 
This has been a great thread. Getting close to deciding.
Dynonsupport... Thanks for chiming in. I now understand your position regarding your support of AP's. The D100 along with the HS34 is still on the top of the list. I read that you said "If we were to have a AP..." No official announcement yet I see..
I have been all over your web site looking for a wiring diagram for the HS34. I know I saw it once and even one of guys at the Dynon booth said it was there but for the life of me I can't find it. Looking at how I will install your product is important to me. BTW... when will the HS34 be shipping?

I just don't have the money to install the GRT and with the HS34 as an option the D100 is very appealing to me.
I am still having trouble deciding on a trutrak model. The IIVSG does not provide vertical GPS steering. Do I need that If I am always going to hand fly the ILS?
Or is there something else I will miss I stay with the IIVSG over the IIVSGV.
Getting closer...
 
Jeff,

Our Sport EFIS product will do exactly what you want and it is only $2800. The new high resolution screen is $3200. We do give heading commands to any Trutrak model or even the Trio through the RS232 feed.

We can give the autopilot approach modes for the lateral on the Sport. You select the inbound heading and arm the approach. We will intercept the LOC or HITS and use GPSS steering to turn onto final even if your autopilot does not have GPSS option.

Our Series I EFIS is capable of vertical guidance with the optional ARINC-429 module. It gives more than just vertical guidance for the ILS. We have climb on airspeed, climb on vertical speed.

We will also have a flight director in our next release of software.

We also have a very good upgrade policy, you can upgrade to the Series I to get vertical guidance by trading in your Sport for the Series I for the price difference.

Todd Stehouwer
Grand Rapids Technologies
 
I looked over Jeff's requirements again. I was focused on the autopilot and forgot about the Garmin 430 integration. The Sport does not have ARINC-429 and is not able to interface to the 430. The new high resolution Sport HX will have as an option an interface to the Garmin 430.

The Sport HX is more money at $4400 plus the 430 option. The price has not been set for the option, but it will be less than $400. The Sport HX does not start shipping until later this year.

Sorry for the oversight.

Todd Stehouwer
Grand Rapids Technologies
 
Jeff,
Since the HS34 is not yet shipping, the wiring info is currently in our support forum, not on our main site. You can see it here, and ask any questions you may have:

http://dynonavionics.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1183734073/9#9

We expect the HS34 to begin shipping in September.

Todd,
Thanks for stepping in and explaining the GRT products. Clearly the TruTrak can accept RS-232 signals since you guys can do it. I just wish TruTrak published this data protocol. I looked all over their site and couldn't find it. It sounds like the GRT stuff has some nice integration with autopilots.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top