Aerobatic testing in the first 40 hours

[DylanRush]

A friend of mine claimed that you must perform aerobatic maneuvers during the flight testing phase, otherwise the airframe is not certified for aerobatic maneuvers. His words:

“ Yes must be on the records that demonstrated that each of these maneuvers were accomplished safely and are entered in the logbook within the 40 hour flight test phase. To add aerobatic maneuvers you would have to go back into flight test phase again to add those maneuvers to the experimental, air certificate, limitations. ”

I’ve never heard of this, is this true?

If so, if one found that the logbooks did not mention rolls, for example, one would have to go to a FSDO and start the flight test phase again to demonstrate a roll?

 

[pazmanyflyer]

A friend of mine claimed that you must perform aerobatic maneuvers during the flight testing phase, otherwise the airframe is not certified for aerobatic maneuvers. His words:

“ Yes must be on the records that demonstrated that each of these maneuvers were accomplished safely and are entered in the logbook within the 40 hour flight test phase. To add aerobatic maneuvers you would have to go back into flight test phase again to add those maneuvers to the experimental, air certificate, limitations. ”

I’ve never heard of this, is this true?

If so, if one found that the logbooks did not mention rolls, for example, one would have to go to a FSDO and start the flight test phase again to demonstrate a roll?

You can complete the 25/40/task based hours and record that in the aircraft records without ever doing the aerobatics. The aircraft just won't be approved for aerobatics and you'll have to placard the aircraft as aerobatics prohibited or something similar. Providing there is no operating limitation restriction, you can always go back and re-enter into phase I to complete the aerobatic tasks/test/maneuvers and then record that those have been completed into the aircraft records and then go back into phase II. Look in the operating limitations for specific process and/or wording.

 

[airguy]

Correct as noted above. There is no magic number of hours beyond which Phase I is over, you can operate in Phase II for years and then put the aircraft back into Phase I to complete the aerobatic maneuvers flight testing, and then back into Phase II.

Phase I is not a "once and done", you can go back there anytime you want - and in fact are REQUIRED to go back there for any major change that affects the way the airplane flies/performs.

 

[rmarshall234]

Correct as noted above. And correct as noted above that.

I’m not sure you *need to placard as prohibited from aerobatic flight but not a bad idea. I once did a CI on a Starduster that was being used for aerobatic instruction and informed the owner that the operating limitations prohibited aerobatic flight until it had been demonstrated and logged. Boy did that get some peeps squirming in their seats. Followed, by a bunch of scrambling around and a log entry and everyone was happy once again.

 

[spatsch]

Never saw a requirement to placard no aerobatic.

Just call your local FSDO and ask them that you have to go back to phase 1 for aerobatic testing. I had to do that after changing the prop.

One of the complexities might be that your original flight test area is not viable anymore (you moved) or it has no place where you legally can perform aerobatic testing (happened to me after my prop change). Then you will have to negotiate an amended flight test area or some other deal (e.g. acro box in your flight test area) with the FSDO.

Took me 2-3 weeks to get that squared away.

Oliver

 

[kenpilot]

A friend of mine claimed that you must perform aerobatic maneuvers during the flight testing phase, otherwise the airframe is not certified for aerobatic maneuvers. His words:

“ Yes must be on the records that demonstrated that each of these maneuvers were accomplished safely and are entered in the logbook within the 40 hour flight test phase. To add aerobatic maneuvers you would have to go back into flight test phase again to add those maneuvers to the experimental, air certificate, limitations. ”

I’ve never heard of this, is this true?

If so, if one found that the logbooks did not mention rolls, for example, one would have to go to a FSDO and start the flight test phase again to demonstrate a roll?

I would question the "40 hour" part of that. But the rest is almost exactly what the FSDO told me on the phone. Furthermore, they added that they would never allow an aircraft to return to Phase 1 for the purpose of performing those aerobatic tests. They told me that the only way that my particular airplane could ever do aerobatics legally (and yes, my operating limitations do state the aerobatics are prohibited without the documented flight tests) is it the original builder was to give me a signed document stating that he did them during the original phase one. Unless someone out there knows a builder named "Robert S Foster", it seems like my airplane is a non-aerobatic airplane for eternity.

 

[BobTurner]

….what the FSDO told me on the phone. Furthermore, they added that they would never allow an aircraft to return to Phase 1 for the purpose of performing those aerobatic tests. .

It would not be the first time a local fsdo did not understand the eab rules. (Happened to me, something completely different.) You may need to call the eaa and get (political) help.

 

[kenpilot]

Are you implying that the FSDO is wrong here? I took what he told me at face value. They are the FAA. They make the rules. I would love to hear that I and the OP are misinformed here. Is there any documentation you could point to to help educate me? It's a serious question. I honestly had closed the subject, giving up hope of ever doing aerobatics in this airplane.

 

[Draker]

I’d love to know if a physical placard is required if you did not perform aerobatic tests during phase 1. I didn’t think there was any regulatory requirement for one. It does sound like a good idea in any case.

 

[Ironflight]

Are you implying that the FSDO is wrong here? I took what he told me at face value. They are the FAA. They make the rules. I would love to hear that I and the OP are misinformed here. Is there any documentation you could point to to help educate me? It's a serious question. I honestly had closed the subject, giving up hope of ever doing aerobatics in this airplane.

Yes, the FSDO you talked to was wrong - there is no question that you can put the airplane back into Phase 1 to do the aerobatics testing. The FSDO inspectors do not make the rules, that is done by FAA HQ.

 

[Mel]

8130.2j, Appendix D, Limitation 45, states: "If aerobatic maneuvers.......... The owner may place the aircraft back into phase I for the sole purpose of adding additional aerobatic maneuvers to the aircraft authorized maneuvers."

Now, if you have older Op Lims that prohibit aerobatics, then you need to have them amended to the latest version to take advantage of this.

 

[kenpilot]

I hope I'm asking relevant questions here, and not unnecessarily sidetracking the thread.

[
Now, if you have older Op Lims that prohibit aerobatics, then you need to have them amended to the latest version to take advantage of this.

Here's what mine says. Is this the "older" style you refer to?

Is it possible that's what the FSDO meant... that they would never allow me to amend them?

 

[Mel]

I hope I'm asking relevant questions here, and not unnecessarily sidetracking the thread.
Here's what mine says. Is this the "older" style you refer to?View attachment 52127
Is it possible that's what the FSDO meant... that they would never allow me to amend them?

Looks like you are good-to-go. Your Op Lims have an exception allowing aerobatic maneuvers that have been tested.

Several iterations ago we had a choice of aerobatic or non-aerobatic aircraft Op Lims.

Non aerobatic-aircraft were prohibited from aerobatic maneuvers.

 

[kenpilot]

Well this is exciting news!! All I ever wanted to do was a loop and a roll. I'm so glad to hear there's a path to maybe someday doing that legally.

Hopefully all this discussion also answers Dylan's original questions.

 

[Mcmark]

Ken,
Who at Dulles did you speak with? There is one individual there that is a bit like the Soup Nazi character on Seinfeld. If necessary ask to speak to someone else.
I ended up working with Baltimore to put my biplane back in Phase 1 for major changes and they couldn’t have been more helpful.
Best of luck.
Mark