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fliier

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I've received a tough medical report and will no longer be able to fly the RV6A. A good friend who is also my attorney has frankly concurred with me that is doesn't make sense to sell the airplane because of the potential liability.

It's been a wonderful adventure after 8 years of building and 22 years of flying. The money spent was well worth it so I have no regrets about walking away.

The issue is that I really have no idea how to go about scrapping an airplane. Has anyone ever had to deal with this?

J Allen
 
fliier said:
I've received a tough medical report and will no longer be able to fly the RV6A. A good friend who is also my attorney has frankly concurred with me that is doesn't make sense to sell the airplane because of the potential liability.

It's been a wonderful adventure after 8 years of building and 22 years of flying. The money spent was well worth it so I have no regrets about walking away.

The issue is that I really have no idea how to go about scrapping an airplane. Has anyone ever had to deal with this?

J Allen
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Im no lawyer, but selling RVs happens daily, why the concern?
 
Destructive or to sell in parts?

You can always cut it up into pieces and cancel your AW. Why not sell like the first response asked?
 
There are thousands of RV's out there that have been re-sold, so far we've heard of none of them being sued. The EAA sales contract is pretty bullet proof. That said, I know people like you, and once you get it in your head that you cant sell it, that's pretty much it, so everyone else shouldn't waste their breath trying to convince you otherwise. A metal recycling center will take pretty much all of the components.
 
I s
fliier said:
I've received a tough medical report and will no longer be able to fly the RV6A. A good friend who is also my attorney has frankly concurred with me that is doesn't make sense to sell the airplane because of the potential liability.

It's been a wonderful adventure after 8 years of building and 22 years of flying. The money spent was well worth it so I have no regrets about walking away.

The issue is that I really have no idea how to go about scrapping an airplane. Has anyone ever had to deal with this?
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fliier said:
The issue is that I really have no idea how to go about scrapping an airplane.
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Why not find a local young pilot looking to build time for career pilot and sell it for $100 using the ironclad EAA contract with the stipulation they have two complete aircraft inspections, one by a reputable A&P and the other by an RV specialist who has built more than one RV6......then do one more contract that states the aircraft is being sold well below market value because it is "AS-IS" with no recourse.

Perhaps even require they have a DAR perform another airworthiness inspection just to confirm the airplane is safe when purchased.
 
Why is an airplane any different than you car. If you work or make repairs on your car and you sell it, do you have the same liability if someone gets hurt driving it? Your lawyer needs to read up on implied and expressed warranties and "selling as is, where is". You can get conditional inspections done by a 3rd party that will take about all the liability out of the transaction. You can also just de-register it and the next buyer would have to get it inspected and signed off again. But please don't cut it up. That is just crazy talk....
 
fliier said:
I've received a tough medical report and will no longer be able to fly the RV6A. A good friend who is also my attorney has frankly concurred with me that is doesn't make sense to sell the airplane because of the potential liability.

It's been a wonderful adventure after 8 years of building and 22 years of flying. The money spent was well worth it so I have no regrets about walking away.

The issue is that I really have no idea how to go about scrapping an airplane. Has anyone ever had to deal with this?

J Allen
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Look on the back of your aircraft's registration card. There are options for modifying or canceling the registration due to sale, export or destruction. Check the appropriate box and return the card to the FAA. You can then scrap the RV-6A however you wish. That's it.

I respect your prerogative to end your aviation journey in whatever manner you wish, it is your decision and nobody without details of your personal situation should second-guess you. We are thankful for the experiences RV-dom has gifted us...Best wishes to you!

P.S. I will consider the same path as you are describing as one option when it is time to set aside my RV-6.
 
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Aden Rich said:
Why is an airplane any different than you car. If you work or make repairs on your car and you sell it, do you have the same liability if someone gets hurt driving it? Your lawyer needs to read up on implied and expressed warranties and "selling as is, where is". You can get conditional inspections done by a 3rd party that will take about all the liability out of the transaction. You can also just de-register it and the next buyer would have to get it inspected and signed off again. But please don't cut it up. That is just crazy talk....
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Come on, now......anyone who has been around aviation for awhile knows an aircraft is very different from a car when it comes to potential liability....ask your local A&P if he thinks his liability exposure is the same as the tech in the local auto service department.
 
fliier said:
I've received a tough medical report and will no longer be able to fly the RV6A. A good friend who is also my attorney has frankly concurred with me that is doesn't make sense to sell the airplane because of the potential liability.

It's been a wonderful adventure after 8 years of building and 22 years of flying. The money spent was well worth it so I have no regrets about walking away.

The issue is that I really have no idea how to go about scrapping an airplane. Has anyone ever had to deal with this?

J Allen
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Sorry to hear of your medical report. I know how hard that is. However, you need to get a new attorney. It raises my blood pressure to hear a lawyer give such advise. He is absolutely clueless regarding the liability he thinks you are incurring by selling the plane. In my opinion it would be a cardinal sin to scap the plane. We do it with medical doctors, I suggest you get a second opinion.
 
Brantel said:
Sell it with an expired condition inspection for even more protection.
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Not legal advice, but this is basically what I would do. I would rescind the current condition inspection and in addition to the text of the EAA contract, indicate that the aircraft is not legal to fly and that I am making no representations about airworthiness or safe operation and that it's the buyer's obligation to get a qualified person of his choosing to give a condition inspection and make it legal to fly. I'd feel comfortable with that + all the standard "as is where is" and no reps or warranties clauses.
 
I scrapped and parted out an RV-9A for a very nice couple a few years ago. He was gravely ill and she had some pretty heavy health problems. He died long before it was done. It was a nice airplane and honestly, it was like killing a healthy puppy. One big problem you’re going to have is fending off passionate people who want to argue about your decision, as you’ve already learned. I was told by an attorney that there are threatened lawsuits over experimental airplanes (“Happens all the time” he said, then scooted before I could ask for details) and they settle before they go to court. Van has been sued, there was a suit over the John Denver crash and the Sorrells (Hyperbipe) were put out of business by a suit. Anyway, scrapping the airplane turned out to be a much bigger project than I’d imagined. Their attorney told them they could sell all the ‘normal’ built bits, like engine, instruments, landing gear, weldments… all that jazz. Even the prefabbed Vans parts ( fiberglass, weldments, landing gear) were OK to sell. They could not sell parts they made like all the sheetmetal. I got inquiries from people who needed an aileron and such, but that all had to be scrapped. Several friends and I spent a significant amount of time stripping the airplane and I stored the parts in our hangar. It’s pretty surprising how much space a disassembled airplane occupies. We advertised in Vans Air Force for targeted, free promotion. (of course!) Barnstormers connected us to some buyers, too. I even sold an antenna thru the Pennysaver but the scams, OMG! I had some very sketchy contacts. (“How much for everything?” One eBay foreigner wanted me to lie on customs forms for him, after I’d stipulated no foreign sales.) A few parts sold thru eBay. The engine and propeller were sold to an RV-4 builder with a Mazda engine who wanted to convert to an airplane engine. We drove about 2000 miles to deliver it and it was a fun trip combined with a vacation. We delivered other parts to a guy in Chicago as part of another road trip. We shipped a lot of parts all over the country and I got pretty familiar with the people at the local FedEx counter. The airframe finally went to the National Disaster Search Dog Foundation for use in training rescue dogs but melted to a puddle in a wildfire, of all things. The whole process took much longer than I expected and required a lot more effort than I expected. All told, it was about a two year job. I will not do it again.
 
I "scrapped" a beautiful Pitts Model 12 a few years ago. The liability was too high in my judgement to sell it given the high accident rate of the type and my personal situation. I ended up donating it to a museum with the stipulation that it never be flown. That seemed to satisfy all the requirements, along with donating logs and cancelling registration/AW

Good luck, and I'm sorry to hear about your health.
 
The initial purchaser can sign an ironclad hold harmless agreement. But that does not bind the family, a guest, or future purchasers, none of whom signed any agreement with the builder. You can not sign away the rights of others to recover for their damages.
As noted above, the vast majority of civil lawsuits never go to trial. They settle by negotiation.
An option for us old guys is to park it and let it be sold by our estate.
 
fliier said:
I've received a tough medical report and will no longer be able to fly the RV6A. A good friend who is also my attorney has frankly concurred with me that is doesn't make sense to sell the airplane because of the potential liability.

It's been a wonderful adventure after 8 years of building and 22 years of flying. The money spent was well worth it so I have no regrets about walking away.

The issue is that I really have no idea how to go about scrapping an airplane. Has anyone ever had to deal with this?

J Allen
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The lawyer ”friend” gave you this advice? Proof positive that a higher education has nothing to do with intelligence.
 
I don’t blame the OP nor his attorney one bit. We live in a crazy country, where lawyers try hard to prove that ‘it was someone else’s fault.’ I recall years ago an aviation attorney wrote an article in one of the aviation magazines where he had been involved in two separate but very similar plane crash lawsuits. He was proud that he had won both cases. But in one he represented the plaintiff, in the other the defendant!! I also have a pilot-friend, who told me that he thought he’d enjoy instructing. But his personal attorney advised him in no uncertain terms that this was a bad idea (this individual was well-off). What you never hear are the out of court settlements, or the legal fees you incur even in a successful defense. Years ago, after the Russians shot down a Korean 747, Boeing claimed to have spent $1 M on legal costs before they finally were dismissed from the lawsuits. You have to ask yourself what it’s worth to sleep at night.
 
I'm sorry to hear of your medical issue. I hope all goes as well as can be expected.

Here is how one RV-8 owner handled the situation. But it is sad to see this end to a perfectly good airplane.

"Now the builder must become the destroyer ..."

 
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Involved in EAB Aircraft for 63 years. My Pitts crashed fatally 10 years and several owners after I sold it. Never heard a word from any one except one call to tell me about the accident. I have never heard of a lawsuit against the builder of an EAB aircraft.
Years ago three lawsuits against John Thorp for the T18 design. John won all of them. To repeat that was against the designer, not a builder.
 
I'd challenge your attorney friend to provide one case where anyone has won a case against the builder of an Amateur Built aircraft.
 
Eric Minnis said:
I'd challenge your attorney friend to provide one case where anyone has won a case against the builder of an Amateur Built aircraft.
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That's missing the point. Defense of a lawsuit that you "win" can cost way more than the value of the aircraft. Is it worth it to "win" a lawsuit if you spent more than the plane is worth?? See post #22 above.

The value of our RVs doesn't even wiggle the needle for a high net-worth individual. The more assets an owner has on a financial statement the bigger a target he is for an attorney(s) willing to roll the dice for a high-value payout. Scrapping a "toy airplane" to avoid legal peril can be a no-brainer for someone who could be at risk for an ambulance chaser hit job.

For an elderly couple who sees their lifelong homeplace bulldozed to make room for somebody's McMansion they are witnessing a "cardinal sin". But for the new home builder it is just a business decision. I don't second-guess a fellow pilot's financial decisions.
 
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Sam Buchanan said:
Come on, now......anyone who has been around aviation for awhile knows an aircraft is very different from a car when it comes to potential liability....ask your local A&P if he thinks his liability exposure is the same as the tech in the local auto service department.
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Registration of a motorized vehicle......I bet the liability is higher for vehicles driven on the road versus an airplane.
 
I occasionally work with attorneys as part of my job, and their entire purpose is to tell you "yes, there is risk in doing X," no matter what X is. I'd suggest at least parting out the avionics if OP is dead set on scrapping a flying airplane. At least the avionics don't have your name on a registration document.
 
fliier said:
I've received a tough medical report and will no longer be able to fly the RV6A. A good friend who is also my attorney has frankly concurred with me that is doesn't make sense to sell the airplane because of the potential liability.

It's been a wonderful adventure after 8 years of building and 22 years of flying. The money spent was well worth it so I have no regrets about walking away.

The issue is that I really have no idea how to go about scrapping an airplane. Has anyone ever had to deal with this?

J Allen
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Is there a school near you that teaches mechanics that would be willing to accept the aircraft as a donation, in exchange for an agreement to never fly the airplane? I think scrapping an airplane is a lot more effort, and takes a lot more time than some might think, and some sort of "all at once" deal would be far preferable. And who can't use a tax write off for a donation??
 
Draker said:
I occasionally work with attorneys as part of my job, and their entire purpose is to tell you "yes, there is risk in doing X," no matter what X is. I'd suggest at least parting out the avionics if OP is dead set on scrapping a flying airplane. At least the avionics don't have your name on a registration document.
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fliier said:
I've received a tough medical report and will no longer be able to fly the RV6A. A good friend who is also my attorney has frankly concurred with me that is doesn't make sense to sell the airplane because of the potential liability.

It's been a wonderful adventure after 8 years of building and 22 years of flying. The money spent was well worth it so I have no regrets about walking away.

The issue is that I really have no idea how to go about scrapping an airplane. Has anyone ever had to deal with this?

J Allen
Click to expand...

fliier said:
I've received a tough medical report and will no longer be able to fly the RV6A. A good friend who is also my attorney has frankly concurred with me that is doesn't make sense to sell the airplane because of the potential liability.

It's been a wonderful adventure after 8 years of building and 22 years of flying. The money spent was well worth it so I have no regrets about walking away.

The issue is that I really have no idea how to go about scrapping an airplane. Has anyone ever had to deal with this?

J Allen
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John,
I don't have a legal background, but, I would think that your plane falls into the provisions of the General Aviation Revitalization Act of 1994. You're the manufacturer and it's been flying for over 18 years. Worth reading.

Good luck,
Chuck
 
Mr. OP, I support your decision. Seems like a lot of people here are trying to talk you out of it, mostly for financial reasons. They (and I) do not know your situation. Perhaps you are very well off, and don't want to be a big target for litigation IF something goes wrong with the next owner...or perhaps you don't want to take a chance of a long, stressful court case (even though you would probably win) while you are fighting some serious illness.

I think some of the folks that commented here should re-read the OP's original post. He asked HOW he should go about scrapping the airplane...NOT whether he SHOULD scrap it.

It's YOUR airplane. Proceed as you see fit, and good luck.
 
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So I have to ask, if Vans Aircraft can have us sign a document releasing them of any liability before they will sell to us, why is it not an option for someone who wishes to relieve themselves of any liability for an aircraft they built as they sell or pass it on ?
 
Decisions like this always hurt but pail in comparison when dealing with more important life events.

Instead of scrapping, donate it to an aviation school to be used for learning by future A&P students. Schools need engines to disassemble and reassemble, and sheet metal to work on, etc…
 
bonefishdave said:
So I have to ask, if Vans Aircraft can have us sign a document releasing them of any liability before they will sell to us, why is it not an option for someone who wishes to relieve themselves of any liability for an aircraft they built as they sell or pass it on ?
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Such documents are nearly worthless. Note they didn’t keep the estate of an RV pilot who botched an emergency landing after he (the builder) managed to get junks of RTV into the fuel system from suing.
 
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BobTurner said:
I don’t blame the OP nor his attorney one bit. We live in a crazy country, where lawyers try hard to prove that ‘it was someone else’s fault.’ I recall years ago an aviation attorney wrote an article in one of the aviation magazines where he had been involved in two separate but very similar plane crash lawsuits. He was proud that he had won both cases. But in one he represented the plaintiff, in the other the defendant!! I also have a pilot-friend, who told me that he thought he’d enjoy instructing. But his personal attorney advised him in no uncertain terms that this was a bad idea (this individual was well-off). What you never hear are the out of court settlements, or the legal fees you incur even in a successful defense. Years ago, after the Russians shot down a Korean 747, Boeing claimed to have spent $1 M on legal costs before they finally were dismissed from the lawsuits. You have to ask yourself what it’s worth to sleep at night.
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He’s selling some aluminum. I’m not sure what that has to do with Russians shooting down a 747. It’s just a lazy thing for a lawyer to say. It requires no effort and there are no consequences to saying “don’t do that it’s too risky”. A lawyer should explain the risks, in this case there are none.
 
I have to say as a Brit looking inwards on this that it seems utterly ludicrous to be considering scrapping a perfectly good aircraft when thousands of Experimental Home-built aircraft get sold on by their owners. If your that concerned sell it to a buyer "sold as seen" with no implied airworthiness whatsoever and use a contract for sale that expressly removes you from any future liability for anything that happens to that aircraft. From reading this thread it appears that there are standard contracts that do this very thing already in existence.

Scrapping a perfectly good aircraft just feels so very very wrong to me.

Its your aircraft and your money at the end of the day so good luck whatever you ultimately decide to do.

Nige
 
A businessman I know, who is a pilot, obtained a Glasair the owner didn't not want flying again. They somehow disabled the main spar, and he hung it upside down above a central area in his company as a cool display item.
 
Webb said:
Instead of scrapping, donate it to an aviation school to be used for learning by future A&P students. Schools need engines to disassemble and reassemble, and sheet metal to work on, etc…
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A friend of mine donate his well built, flying Zenith to a local aircraft A&P school due to liability issues. Slightly different then the OP situation as they were not his liability issues but a company’s with deep pockets. He had taken some financial support during his build from a drug company that wanted to advertise that their drug, he was taking, was approved for use by pilots. Drug company did not want the liability once my friend stopped flying.

Like a few others have stated, scrapping my airplane will be an option when I stop flying. Avionics will be dated, engine near overhaul, and will show 20+ years of wear so little value to anyone else anyway.
 
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I would sell "parts" and then see if a local fire department or airport ARFF crew would like the rest for mock disaster training. A hull of a small plane would be a great training tool and at least maybe help others down the line if this aircraft seriously needs to meet the end of the road. Good luck.
 
I'm not getting into the whole should or shouldn't debate.

However, it seems to me that if that's the direction you take, a pretty reasonable option would be to sell the engine and prop, drill the data plate off of it, deregister it, cancel the airworthiness certificate, then donate it to an A&P school or local museum to take the tax credit for a charitable donation. Done.
 
fliier said:
I've received a tough medical report and will no longer be able to fly the RV6A. A good friend who is also my attorney has frankly concurred with me that is doesn't make sense to sell the airplane because of the potential liability.

It's been a wonderful adventure after 8 years of building and 22 years of flying. The money spent was well worth it so I have no regrets about walking away.

The issue is that I really have no idea how to go about scrapping an airplane. Has anyone ever had to deal with this?

J Allen
Click to expand...
Don't scrap it--donate it to a technical college that has an aviation tech program and take the deduction. That's what I did. Created an agreement that the college agreed never to sell it or fly it. Wrote the FAA and revoked the airworthiness certificate. Now it is helping train aviation techs and I can sleep at night.
 
I would make arrangement to hang it from the ceiling of my favorite aviation themed bar or restaurant.
Being both a theatrical rigger and having served the first half of my life in the sign business, it could also be mounted as a partial section to the outside of a building near an airport as if it flew through the wall.
 
This has been a very emotional thread for me. Last month my Dr. noticed something and ordered immediate major surgery. As I lay in bed reading these forums, I wait for tests that will determine if I will be able to fly again. Flying is my life. I manage and fly a private jet, I own a legend cub that is pure joy to fly, and gives kids their first flight through the young eagles program. I also built and own an RV7 that I spared no expense. It’s loaded with the top of the line everything, and sports an awesome EV0KE paint job that I waited nearly 3 years in the queue. Several months back it was even noticed by a Sun N Fun judge who advised me it would be in line this year for grand champion.
Unfortunately I didn’t get the chance to take it to sun n fun.
The planes are a part of me. They are my family. I am very emotionally attached to them.
The thought of scrapping the RV because some lawyer told me there is an Infinitesimal chance that I might be liable down the road for some mishap doesn’t even register on my radar screen. This plane has a life, and by golly it deserves to live on and do exactly what it was made for. I hope and pray that in a few months the testes come back the right way and I’ll be back to flying. But if The worst comes to pass, this plane will live on and some soul I hope will become its caretaker and fly it as it is meant to be
 
You sure have my sympathy for all this.

Someone a while ago scrapped an RV-8, so if you can find that thread, it'll help.

Among the easier ways to scrap it are to sell the firewall forward to another builder, ideally with them doing the removal. If you can remove the panel you might have things there that you can sell. The wheels, tires and brakes make a decent package to sell, too, removing the nosewheel prior to the FWF sale.

Then remove the wings and send the hulk to a car scrap yard or donate it to some suitable education facility. If you want to be absolutely certain it won't fly again, cut the wings and tail off with a chainsaw or other device. I saw an F-104 in a scrap yard years ago that had the wings cut off with a torch, and the cockpit and tail chopped off, too. It's a permanent but sad way to make it no longer an airplane.

Good luck to you!

Dave
 
Sell it to someone in another country. It has to go through the airworthiness process all over again, releasing you from any liability.
 
bonefishdave said:
This has been a very emotional thread for me. Last month my Dr. noticed something and ordered immediate major surgery. As I lay in bed reading these forums, I wait for tests that will determine if I will be able to fly again. Flying is my life. I manage and fly a private jet, I own a legend cub that is pure joy to fly, and gives kids their first flight through the young eagles program. I also built and own an RV7 that I spared no expense. It’s loaded with the top of the line everything, and sports an awesome EV0KE paint job that I waited nearly 3 years in the queue. Several months back it was even noticed by a Sun N Fun judge who advised me it would be in line this year for grand champion.
Unfortunately I didn’t get the chance to take it to sun n fun.
The planes are a part of me. They are my family. I am very emotionally attached to them.
The thought of scrapping the RV because some lawyer told me there is an Infinitesimal chance that I might be liable down the road for some mishap doesn’t even register on my radar screen. This plane has a life, and by golly it deserves to live on and do exactly what it was made for. I hope and pray that in a few months the testes come back the right way and I’ll be back to flying. But if The worst comes to pass, this plane will live on and some soul I hope will become its caretaker and fly it as it is meant to be
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I wish you the best of outcome. At the field, there is at least one older gentleman who owns a beautiful Waco biplane but can no longer pilot the airplane by himself. He has his friend take him flying in the Waco almost every weekend.
 
Aden Rich said:
Why is an airplane any different than you car. If you work or make repairs on your car and you sell it, do you have the same liability if someone gets hurt driving it? Your lawyer needs to read up on implied and expressed warranties and "selling as is, where is". You can get conditional inspections done by a 3rd party that will take about all the liability out of the transaction. You can also just de-register it and the next buyer would have to get it inspected and signed off again. But please don't cut it up. That is just crazy talk....
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I dont think you understand. If I do something stupid, like run out of gas and slam into something and kill myself, in my F-150, I cannot successfully sue Ford. They would laugh my estate out of court. However, If I do something stupid, like run out of gas and slam into something and kill myself, in my 172, my estate would likely clear millions in the settlement or judgement with Cessna. I don't claim to fully understand why this is, I just know that it is.

FYI, selling something as is or where is, does not relieve a seller from his duty of care obligations, nor permit his negligence. Both of these principals are cornerstones in most lawsuits.

Larry
 
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David Paule said:
You sure have my sympathy for all this.

Someone a while ago scrapped an RV-8, so if you can find that thread, it'll help.

Among the easier ways to scrap it are to sell the firewall forward to another builder, ideally with them doing the removal. If you can remove the panel you might have things there that you can sell. The wheels, tires and brakes make a decent package to sell, too, removing the nosewheel prior to the FWF sale.

Then remove the wings and send the hulk to a car scrap yard or donate it to some suitable education facility. If you want to be absolutely certain it won't fly again, cut the wings and tail off with a chainsaw or other device. I saw an F-104 in a scrap yard years ago that had the wings cut off with a torch, and the cockpit and tail chopped off, too. It's a permanent but sad way to make it no longer an airplane.

Good luck to you!

Dave
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This what I would do and I, like you, would never sell my 6 whole due to liability concerns. Sell various different piece parts to different people and the liability all but disappears. If you sell your 6, you will forever be the manufacturer of that 6 and carry that liability as long as that plane exists. If you sell your engine, Lycoming is and always will be the manufacturer and carry the liability accordingly. Shedding liability is mostly about eliminating the negligence. Negligence is easy to prove with manufacturers and very hard to prove with 3rd party transactors.

When a guy runs out of gas and slams his 172 into a mountain, his family sues cessna and most always wins. Sadly, the court doesn't allow you to say that the idiot ran out of gas. Doesn't matter that 150 mechanics have touched it and 25 people have bought and sold it and Cessna hasn't seen it for 70 years, it is Cessna that looses. You want to be in a position to look like the buyer, seller or mechanic and less like Cessna.

Larry
 
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