[georgemohr]

I feel the same way. Very grateful that Mr VanGrunsven stepped in to save his company. I'm also very grateful that people like Greg are working so hard to make the best of a horrible situation. If not for their sacrifice and hard work, I'd be staring at a very expensive pile of worthless parts.

This.

 

[swift12]

This.

This is all very good for those not affected but no way will I blindly fire money at this company without iron clad guarantees…that is escrow for my money…..and deal direct with lycoming on picking up the engine. Sorry but there is zero trust here wether they are trying to save the company or not….someone will provide RV parts. They do not answer the hard questions just reiterate what is on their website. I want to see them survive too but not at me firing extra money at them to cover their mismanagement and the possibility of losing a lot more. The ONLY way I will send more money is to a guaranteed escrow account managed by the lawyers where if they go tits up I get my money back….is that not the simplest way to get a very high re order rate? We ain’t talking coffee money here…..I have dropped $11500 (9500 on the engine) in deposits….they now want $4800 more for the contract price we agreed on with lycoming who is not in chapter 11 and the balance will be $33100……if they take my money NOT into an escrow account and go chapter 7 I’ll have 42500 out there I might lose…..I cannot afford to lose that…..so without escrow and iron clad guarantees from lycoming I’m out.

 

[Cessnadog]

First, this is a shitty situation (Can I say that?) that nobody wishes we were all in. Most of all, the folks at Van’s Aircraft.
Mistakes were made, nobody will argue. Best I can tell, Van’s had somewhere around $4.5 Million in engine and prop deposits that got consumed as operating capital. Van‘s found a way to get engines to people for get engines with a maximum increase in cost of about half of what your deposit Likely was. I was hopeful the cost to me would be less, and I feared it would be more. At the end of the day I think Van’s is doing everything they can to minimize the impact on builders. That impact was never going to be zero, even without bankruptcy inflation was out ahead of them and prices had to go up. Laser cut parts and primer issues made it a bit of a perfect storm.

 

[georgemohr]

This is all very good for those not affected but no way will I blindly fire money at this company without iron clad guarantees…that is escrow for my money…..and deal direct with lycoming on picking up the engine. Sorry but there is zero trust here wether they are trying to save the company or not….someone will provide RV parts. They do not answer the hard questions just reiterate what is on their website. I want to see them survive too but not at me firing extra money at them to cover their mismanagement and the possibility of losing a lot more. The ONLY way I will send more money is to a guaranteed escrow account managed by the lawyers where if they go tits up I get my money back….is that not the simplest way to get a very high re order rate? We ain’t talking coffee money here…..I have dropped $11500 (9500 on the engine) in deposits….they now want $4800 more for the contract price we agreed on with lycoming who is not in chapter 11 and the balance will be $33100……if they take my money NOT into an escrow account and go chapter 7 I’ll have 42500 out there I might lose…..I cannot afford to lose that…..so without escrow and iron clad guarantees from lycoming I’m out.

I get you man, I'm right in your shoes. They have 12k of my paid-in-full prop, so I really am.

But, realize you aren't going to get what you want here. There will be no guarantees in a Ch11 situation. And if that makes you back out, I don't blame you at all. On the other hand, if they go under there will not be some knight on a horse that magically picks up where they left off and delivers kits parts and support and whatever for the tens of thousands of us out there somewhere between just getting started and flying for decades.

I'm willing to continue putting money into this because the alternative is a dead end.

 

[TedC]

First, this is a shitty situation (Can I say that?) that nobody wishes we were all in. Most of all, the folks at Van’s Aircraft.
Mistakes were made, nobody will argue. Best I can tell, Van’s had somewhere around $4.5 Million in engine and prop deposits that got consumed as operating capital. Van‘s found a way to get engines to people for get engines with a maximum increase in cost of about half of what your deposit Likely was. I was hopeful the cost to me would be less, and I feared it would be more. At the end of the day I think Van’s is doing everything they can to minimize the impact on builders. That impact was never going to be zero, even without bankruptcy inflation was out ahead of them and prices had to go up. Laser cut parts and primer issues made it a bit of a perfect storm.

I don't think people are complaining about the price increase (although no one likes it). It's about WHEN we will get our engines, and about the SECURITY of our money from this point forward. The latter means real escrow.

I wish they would just TALK to us...

 

[JDBoston]

I don't think people are complaining about the price increase (although no one likes it). It's about WHEN we will get our engines, and about the SECURITY of our money from this point forward. The latter means real escrow.

I wish they would just TALK to us...

EXACTLY. It is the WHEN, the price increase I will eat. However, I am reluctant to send another $ to Van's without understanding the time horizon and risk of sending those funds. Are we talking in my case of another few months before the engine is shipped, or a few years considering I am now just about at the previous ship date. It isn't just a matter for me of "wanting my engine soon", it is calculating what risk there is of sending money to a company in Chapter 11 with a long time horizon for holding that money.

Just to be clear, I am grateful for what Van's and company are doing - people are working hard there, there is no negativity here. This is business, and I cannot make a business decision without complete information.

 

[georgemohr]

I fully agree about the scheduling issue. Knowing when you could expect delivery is something Vans has always been bad at (in recent years at least). This situation has certainly not improved that issue. And yet its hard to dump money into a uncertain future without some indication of delivery dates.

I'm really hoping that everyone's 'place in line' with the vendors is maintained, and that we aren't starting from zero. That would be a killer for many (myself included). Vans should clarify this and provide some estimate of delivery.

 

[Pdp7427]

Hard to be positive, we all saw the profit taking that occurred which was revealed during the Ch11. Pretty sure that would have covered all the deposits and then some

Instead of putting it back, it’s being lent at 10% and protected as the 1st creditor in line.

Hard to see how people are “thankful”. Knowing that the money that’s needed is being squeezed from the customer while the owner took profits when they shouldn’t have.

Pure lack of fiscal responsibility. To me it’s like rescuing your adult children from bad finances and praising them afterwards.

The good news is that you have choices. But you’re also choosing to believe that profits were taken maliciously. Many people don’t see that to have been the case. That’s one interpretation and you’re entitled to it. But if pure profit was the motive it would probably prove less expensive to the ownership to have liquidated company assets and move on. After all, if profits had been stripped out of the company, and other assets could have been sold off to legally satisfy debt at pennies on the dollar, that would have been done. There is major risk still to ALL monies involved- from deposits to loans. Feel free to make your claim in court, get back what you can in ~5 years time, and look to other sources to provide what you need. And feel free to make your opinions known. There’s value in, even if just as a perspective to consider for those who have different views of the situation. But your view is buy one of many and certainly one of the more cynical that I’ve read here. I’m glad to have read your thoughts and I choose to view things from a different vantage point.

Best to you, and I genuinely hope that you and everyone else involve, can salvage the best possible from the mess.

Patrick

 

[Dan 57]

It's about WHEN we will get our engines, and about the SECURITY of our money from this point forward. The latter means real escrow.

I'd say the latter is the former. since the fulfilling of delivery as in WHEN depends primarily on the SECURITY. A slide into chapter 7 would mean the loss of your WHEN, but above all all of your SECURITY...

 

[bertschb]

Hard to see how people are “thankful”.

I'm thankful that I have a hobby to keep me busy in retirement
I'm thankful that Vans is still in business and shipping kits and parts
I'm thankful that Dick VanGrunsven cares enough about his legacy and his customers to lend a failing company millions of dollars
I'm thankful that Dick's wife (and likely their children) support his decision
I'm thankful my laser cut parts were replaced
I'm thankful my engine will still be far less expensive than buying directly from somewhere else
I'm thankful Vans has very inexpensive shipping charges when I just need a few nuts and bolts
I'm thankful Vans lets me pick up my kits at the factory rather than pay freight shipping
I'm thankful Vans has knowledgable support staff that will give me free advice and support
I'm thankful Greg and many others at Vans are working overtime to help us
I'm thankful we get updates even though they are less frequent than we'd like
I'm thankful Vans has attorneys that understand bankruptcy law and can represent their (and our) interests in court
And finally, I'm thankful for Doug and VAF. My build would be far more difficult and costly without all the support here

We have much to be thankful for. I could add many more to this list but I need to get back out to fitting my HS tip fairing....

 

[Dan 57]

The good news is that you have choices

Yep, right. and those choices are:

1. file a claim, probably loose close to your full deposit, and go hunt for another engine (or prop, or both) somewhere else
2. do nothing and loose your full deposit
3. or, welcome to Vegas roulette, as in paying the outstanding (+ whatever increase, max 12%) amount for that same engine (or prop, or both) praying the company to survive until said ordered and paid goods are delivered to your doorstep

 

[N82VM]

To clarify I don’t think anything was malicious, it was ignorant.

Lots of things to be thankful about but certain individuals working “overtime” to fix the mess that they created isn’t anything I’m thankful about. The responsibility lies with leadership, lots of folks at Vans got let go that were not the cause or contributors to mismanagement. Yet many remain that had a hand in it. Hard for me to praise or get behind that.

 

[Pdp7427]

Yep, right. and those choices are:

1. file a claim, probably loose close to your full deposit, and go hunt for another engine (or prop, or both) somewhere else

Almost guaranteed Expensive, and uncertain project outcome.

1. do nothing and loose your full deposit

Guaranteed expensive, extended project timeline.

1. or, welcome to Vegas roulette, as in paying the outstanding (+ whatever increase, max 12%) amount for that same engine (or prop, or both) praying the company to survive until said ordered and paid goods are delivered to your doorstep

Still expensive, but in my situation the least likely risk to my financial picture and most likely positive outcome at this point. Timeline still unknown.

 

[Capt]

I can understand the hurt by many who have been let down by Vans’s poor company ethics as a group of us were on the verge of ordering an 8 kit but held off due one party getting cold feet ( we owe than man a beer!), we dodged a bullet there! Maybe one day “if” Vans come back from this we’ll revisit the kit market.
I wish those effected can come to terms with all this mess, such a waste of the once most respected and popular kit builder out there!

 

[Dan 57]

most likely positive outcome at this point

Not sure how your assessment is done, nor is it the point.
Thing is an escrow outside Van's would provide all of us customers with security which is one of the conditions to get the ball rolling.
I'd be far more comfortable paying the open balance for my engine to Lycoming direct, or an external escrow, rather than a company floating thru the muddy waters of chapter 11...

 

[Cessnadog]

I will say that I don’t think ethics played into this, at least not in a negative way. I don’t think for a second Van’s (or anyone else) had any thing but good intentions. Nobody in business had ever navigated anything like covid before, let alone the supply chain and inflation issues we saw. I am sure that Lycoming didn’t think they would be this far behind on orders when they took them.

If you accept the new terms on an engine or prop, they are not asking you to send in more money, at least not until Lycoming is actually building your engine. If you do order something new, all of that money is being held (by Van’s) in a separate account. No, it is not escrow, but it also costs you nothing, and they don’t need (i.e. are not required) to do so. Van’s has been in business for 50 years and never had a problem With cash flow.

I will encourage anyone who has concerns to NOT accept the terms and go buy your engine somewhere else. It will cost you a boatload more and I will be closer to the front of the line… :>).

 

[lykowdk]

Yep, right. and those choices are:

1. file a claim, probably loose close to your full deposit, and go hunt for another engine (or prop, or both) somewhere else
2. do nothing and loose your full deposit
3. or, welcome to Vegas roulette, as in paying the outstanding (+ whatever increase, max 12%) amount for that same engine (or prop, or both) praying the company to survive until said ordered and paid goods are delivered to your doorstep

My understanding is that with #3, we won't have to pay any additional money until the engine is being assembled at Lycoming. At which point the time between money and product should be minimized. So we would only be risking lots of money for a short period. I think I am ok with that. My biggest thing is.. I WANT TO GIVE LYCOMING MY MONEY!!! Please tell me when my engine will be available.. I want them to have my money, either directly, or through Vans.. But I want my engine.. (And my backordered parts..) And then I will have everything I need until I screw up the next part

 

[spatsch]

This is business, and I cannot make a business decision without complete information.

I had to chuckle at this. I have been in business for a long time and I nearly never had complete information to make a business decision. It's all about taking calculated risks with incomplete information... . Just like in war (fog of war...).

I do understand though that people are upset and want to walk. It seems you got all the answers from Van's you will get. No 3rd party escrow and no guarantees on timeline. In addition the last financial filing shows that they will have spent all their DIP funding within the next couple of months so that puts them at a substantial risk for chapter 7. Maybe they will revise that in their next filing as they will have more complete information on how their business is doing but maybe they will not... . I hope they will... .

So that's the information you got. How much of a risk you are willing to take is up to you.

Oliver

 

[JDBoston]

I had to chuckle at this. I have been in business for a long time and I nearly never had complete information to make a business decision. It's all about taking calculated risks with incomplete information... . Just like in war (fog of war...).

I do understand though that people are upset and want to walk. It seems you got all the answers from Van's you will get. No 3rd party escrow and no guarantees on timeline. In addition the last financial filing shows that they will have spent all their DIP funding within the next couple of months so that puts them at a substantial risk for chapter 7. Maybe they will revise that in their next filing as they will have more complete information on how their business is doing but maybe they will not... . I hope they will... .

So that's the information you got. How much of a risk you are willing to take is up to you.

Oliver

Not trying to get into a back and forth, I agree with you completely. I/We are hardly looking for certainty here. It is not a matter of wanting an exact date, however it is the difference between "pending orders will retain their delivery slots and we will soon communicate approximate dates " OR "Starting today deliveries will begin 36-48 months from now".

You wouldn't take on a new product line for a store for example if you had to send a significant up front deposit, and were given no information about when to expect being able to start receiving the inventory (as good an example of the top of my head that I could come up with)

Clearly I am voting with accepting the new contract, but VERY reluctantly. Especially given that I believe for the EXP119 version of the 390 there is no alternative other than Lycoming (Engine shops have told me they cannot make these).

 

[georgemohr]

...however it is the difference between "pending orders will retain their delivery slots and we will soon communicate approximate dates " OR "Starting today deliveries will begin 36-48 months from now".

Yeah this is the level of guidance we need. Totally agree, this is the one thing that I feel Vans is really lacking right now to build confidence and get everyone to click the buy button.

 

[swift12]

Yep, right. and those choices are:

1. file a claim, probably loose close to your full deposit, and go hunt for another engine (or prop, or both) somewhere else
2. do nothing and loose your full deposit
3. or, welcome to Vegas roulette, as in paying the outstanding (+ whatever increase, max 12%) amount for that same engine (or prop, or both) praying the company to survive until said ordered and paid goods are delivered to your doorstep

Or lose everything after paying the 12%. You forgot that small point

 

[docjjrmd]

I had to chuckle at this. I have been in business for a long time and I nearly never had complete information to make a business decision. It's all about taking calculated risks with incomplete information... . Just like in war (fog of war...).

I do understand though that people are upset and want to walk. It seems you got all the answers from Van's you will get. No 3rd party escrow and no guarantees on timeline. In addition the last financial filing shows that they will have spent all their DIP funding within the next couple of months so that puts them at a substantial risk for chapter 7. Maybe they will revise that in their next filing as they will have more complete information on how their business is doing but maybe they will not... . I hope they will... .

So that's the information you got. How much of a risk you are willing to take is up to you.

Oliver

Yep, 40 yrs here and I chuckle a bit. I just "spent" $10K to hold a build slot with "estimated" delivery mid 2027 for $375,000 (today dollars) in vehicles with no fixed price, no guaranteed delivery date. Build deposit is non-refundable will be put towards final price when delivered. Yes being in business is about managing risk and reward. Building an airplane is about managing risk and reward and should not be considered risk free. Much of the current risk is not in Vans hands at this point. Vans cannot guarantee the performance of Lycoming or Rotax and I suggest that delivery timelines are much more in the hands of the latter than controlled by Vans.

 

[roadrunner20]

FWIW, I don't have any money at risk, I just feel bad for all those in this mess.
Why should anyone have to pay up when their supposed engine is being built?
If the backlog is so long, if they don't pay the balance when it comes off the line, the next guy on deck gets it. Problem solved!

 

[swift12]

Tot

FWIW, I don't have any money at risk, I just feel bad for all those in this mess.
Why should anyone have to pay up when their supposed engine is being built?
If the backlog is so long, if they don't pay the balance when it comes off the line, the next guy on deck gets it. Problem solved!

Totally agree. Vans do not need to look after our money at all! pay our damn deposits across to lycoming….they make our engine…..then we pay direct to lycoming. There is no good reason for vans to hang onto our money and slide it into an operating account when the engine is ready for production other than using our money for daily running costs…..I’m not willing to do that….its simple….ill pay the new price and confirm my order WITH GUARANTEES and nothing else. Escrow, deal with lycoming. So vans can solve this re order quandary by simply changing the process to give those of us iron clad guarantees….thats all people want…..honesty, integrity, assurance. Not talk though….actual action….

 

[RV7A Flyer]

On the other hand, if they go under there will not be some knight on a horse that magically picks up where they left off and delivers kits parts and support and whatever for the tens of thousands of us out there somewhere between just getting started and flying for decades.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. In the absence of sh*tty QA and even sh*ttier accounting practices, Van's aircraft are solid, well-designed products. I wouldn't assume there isn't some VC out there to buy up the tooling, IP, contracts with vendors, etc., and throw in the existing inventory, for a reasonable discount and start churning out parts and subkits again. Might charge more for them, but with 11,000+ completed kits so far, there's clearly a market, and where there's a market, there's a good chance someone will step in and fill it.

All the failures were self-induced, and NOT due to poor design, so the backbone of a viable company is there. Just takes someone with enough capital to buy 'em up and restart production.

 

[swift12]

I wouldn't be too sure about that. In the absence of sh*tty QA and even sh*ttier accounting practices, Van's aircraft are solid, well-designed products. I wouldn't assume there isn't some VC out there to buy up the tooling, IP, contracts with vendors, etc., and throw in the existing inventory, for a reasonable discount and start churning out parts and subkits again. Might charge more for them, but with 11,000+ completed kits so far, there's clearly a market, and where there's a market, there's a good chance someone will step in and fill it.

All the failures were self-induced, and NOT due to poor design, so the backbone of a viable company is there. Just takes someone with enough capital to buy 'em up and restart production.

Exactly….

 

[airguy]

Reading through the threads recently and listening to the rhetoric back and forth - I'm reminded that Vans told the court they expected 70% of the customers to accept the new agreement, and about 30% to walk. The actual numbers came in very close to that, I believe it was 65% acceptance at the last released information, and that was before the engine/prop/avionics information was sent out. More will certainly sign up now and push that number toward the expected 70%.

Meanwhile, here on the forums, I'm noticing a LOT of biting cynical rhetoric from a FEW key players. It's obvious who the 30% are, and it's obvious they don't intend to go away quietly. It's their right to mouth off about it, I suppose. Some folks will not be happy until Vans burns completely to the ground, and then they will be unhappy that it took so long.

 

[spatsch]

Tot

Totally agree. Vans do not need to look after our money at all! pay our damn deposits across to lycoming….they make our engine…..then we pay direct to lycoming. There is no good reason for vans to hang onto our money and slide it into an operating account when the engine is ready for production other than using our money for daily running costs…..I’m not willing to do that….its simple….ill pay the new price and confirm my order WITH GUARANTEES and nothing else. Escrow, deal with lycoming. So vans can solve this re order quandary by simply changing the process to give those of us iron clad guarantees….thats all people want…..honesty, integrity, assurance. Not talk though….actual action….

Considering that Van's spend the deposit the best financial outcome for them would be that you don't reorder the engine and become a creditor. We don't have the detailed break down but based on their financial statements they expect to loose not make money on existing engine contracts. So that implies that there margin was less than the difference between the 25% deposit and 12% price increase for Lycoming engines. I also suspect that the reason other 3rd parties increased less is that their margin was higher for those products in the first place so less of the 25% deposit belonged to the 3rd party and needs to be offset by a price increase.

So consider that why would they give you additional guarantees to reorder? I think they are perfectly fine you becoming a creditor.

Oliver

 

[squeakersc063]

My offer arrived on my 2022 Thunderbolt order and based on the price gap and timeline I'm thinking of just ordering a non TB engine and rolling the dice on ever getting my deposit back with a rejection of the new offer. That course would put me at about the same price point assuming I lose the deposit and maybe a faster engine delivery.

 

[N82VM]

Here is what the options look like. It appears there is a separate “trust”account but it does not specify it as escrow or exactly what protections it provides other than it won’t go into the general slush fund.

Need more explanation as to EXACTLY what protections this other account has.

Sounds good and all except NOTHING that details the “trust”. Without that on paper might as well be magic beans.

 

[NavyS3BNFO]

Anyone else’s original order amount in the reorder different than your original invoice? Mine was off by the $1,000 prop/engine discount. So now I’m being charged an extra $1,000 on top of the 12% increase. SMH. When I see things like that, I start to lose what little confidence I had left.

 

[jimbom]

My offer arrived on my 2022 Thunderbolt order and based on the price gap and timeline I'm thinking of just ordering a non TB engine and rolling the dice on ever getting my deposit back with a rejection of the new offer. That course would put me at about the same price point assuming I lose the deposit and maybe a faster engine delivery.

Are you the first to report contact?
Was the price gap more than 12% and what kind of timeline did they give you?

 

[DanFrazer]

Anyone else’s original order amount in the reorder different than your original invoice? Mine was off by the $1,000 prop/engine discount. So now I’m being charged an extra $1,000 on top of the 12% increase. SMH. When I see things like that, I start to lose what little confidence I had left.

Mine was more than I expected because when I ordered in April 2023, they weren't charging me sales tax. Since then, they started charging sales tax on all my web orders. They made my original order look like it had sales tax in it, and then put my 6% (rotax) increase on top of that. So, it was basically a double whammy to my out of pocket, bringing my total increase from when I originally ordered close to 14% more.

 

[Carl Froehlich]

Anyone else’s original order amount in the reorder different than your original invoice? Mine was off by the $1,000 prop/engine discount. So now I’m being charged an extra $1,000 on top of the 12% increase. SMH. When I see things like that, I start to lose what little confidence I had left.

My offer reflected the $1000 prop/engine discount.
Carl

 

[2theskyy]

I will say that I don’t think ethics played into this, at least not in a negative way. I don’t think for a second Van’s (or anyone else) had any thing but good intentions. Nobody in business had ever navigated anything like covid before, let alone the supply chain and inflation issues we saw. I am sure that Lycoming didn’t think they would be this far behind on orders when they took them.

If you accept the new terms on an engine or prop, they are not asking you to send in more money, at least not until Lycoming is actually building your engine. If you do order something new, all of that money is being held (by Van’s) in a separate account. No, it is not escrow, but it also costs you nothing, and they don’t need (i.e. are not required) to do so. Van’s has been in business for 50 years and never had a problem With cash flow.

I will encourage anyone who has concerns to NOT accept the terms and go buy your engine somewhere else. It will cost you a boatload more and I will be closer to the front of the line… :>).

I only have to address your last comment. I chose not to purchase my engine & prop through Vans. I have a certified with full logs, engine,O smoh(new crank,cylinders, etc. that came in below vans discounted price. They are both in my basement awaiting my engine mount from vans that might come January of next year.
And I got all those well within a years timeframe. I can sell the engine in the certified or experimental world if my -8 ends up going to the scrap bin. So my point is, there are other options. Vans is a great kit supplier. As for other items, they are definitely not the alpha and omega. For some the one stop shop is of great help. For those that have been in aviation for awhile, there are options.

 

[PH102]

Are you the first to report contact?
Was the price gap more than 12% and what kind of timeline did they give you?

I just signed my YIO-360-M1B new contract. My engine was supposed to be ready in November and I have a serial number in my name. I'm glad to report my price increase did not reach 12%. I am in Oregon and usually pick up my kits. Van's has been shipping me backordered parts, no additional charge or postage. I belong to EAA Chapter 105 with Dick VanGrunsven. Van's is in business, just as they spelled out in the court documents. I still get answers to all my tech questions. A message from Lycoming in December stated:

Q: I ordered a Lycoming Engine through Van’s Aircraft, what’s my status?
A: Like many of you, Lycoming Engines first learned of the Van’s Aircraft’s financial
restructuring on December 4, 2023, and we are working quickly to assess the
impact of their financial restructuring.
To the extent possible, Lycoming Engines hopes to mitigate engine order delays
related to this news, and we are committed to supporting the impacted aviation
community. However, because Lycoming must work through Van’s Aircraft
pursuant to the rules of the Federal Bankruptcy Code, Lycoming cannot provide
specific engine build scheduling to Van’s Aircraft customers at this time. We
anticipate that better information will be available in mid-January 2024.

I'm thinking I'll have a motor pretty soon.

 

[Cholley6]

These threads popping up immediately after information is released is both a blessing and a curse. It is nice to see how others are interpreting the info, and to learn if others are seeing movement in their orders. Early on they are helpful. But they seem to quickly turn rather unproductive. It is hard to read through a thread for information and not get swept up in the emotion of the moment, regardless if one is a Van's cheerleader or a Van's hater. There certainly seem to be plenty of both in this thread in particular.

Can we at least try to keep things productive in the update threads? Even though the venting goes against the rules Doug created for his site, can someone just create a thread to vent? So every thread doesn't turn into what this one has. It appears several need a space to vent with others.

I understand the frustration, I have kits on order as well, and just sent Van's a fair bit of money for one of them.

To those that want Greg to answer the "hard" questions on here. It's not going to happen, frankly I hope he is no longer wasting his time reading through all of this. Clearly he and every other employee at Van's has more important things to work on than sit on the forums and answer every personal question about every specific situation that each individual finds themselves in. Please let them get back to work so they can get some kits out the door and work on getting this whole mess in the rear view mirror.

 

[Jonnyb]

I wouldn't be too sure about that. In the absence of sh*tty QA and even sh*ttier accounting practices, Van's aircraft are solid, well-designed products. I wouldn't assume there isn't some VC out there to buy up the tooling, IP, contracts with vendors, etc., and throw in the existing inventory, for a reasonable discount and start churning out parts and subkits again. Might charge more for them, but with 11,000+ completed kits so far, there's clearly a market, and where there's a market, there's a good chance someone will step in and fill it.

All the failures were self-induced, and NOT due to poor design, so the backbone of a viable company is there. Just takes someone with enough capital to buy 'em up and restart production.

If Vans does go into liquidation, doesn't RVG have loans secured on the buildings and tooling? So in this case could he demand the buildings and tooling be handed over instead of pressing for his loans to be repaid in cash? Also, doesn't he own the rights to all the designs outright?

 

[rsr3]

To those that want Greg to answer the "hard" questions on here. It's not going to happen, frankly I hope he is no longer wasting his time reading through all of this. Clearly he and every other employee at Van's has more important things to work on than sit on the forums and answer every personal question about every specific situation that each individual finds themselves in. Please let them get back to work so they can get some kits out the door and work on getting this whole mess in the rear view mirror.

Let me be clear - I don't have any personal beef with Greg, none whatsoever. I don't want to see anybody lose their job - it's truly a miserable experience. That said, I'm not expecting him to trawl through the entire VAF forum, just the threads he has started in order to answer pertinent, valid questions. Re: Vans - I hope that somehow they continue trading long into the future.

However, it was senior management negligence that got us into this mess. As someone faced with imminently spending another $35k with a bankrupt company and no real protection, I do think we're allowed to ask reasonable questions of Vans to secure our money appropriately such that we can continue doing business with them. I struggle to believe that Vans and Lycoming cannot get their heads together to work a solution which would ensure both parties continue to receive significant amounts of money from customers wanting their products but via a safe transaction.

Without that, I am now contemplating a fourth option to that of Dan's list of three: looking to source an overhauled engine. It is not what I had wanted originally, but is now making more and more sense to me.

In the meantime, until I receive the notice of my new price I'll retain the option of a new engine if Vans can arrange a safe, protected transaction.

 

[Dugaru]

Some folks will not be happy until Vans burns completely to the ground, and then they will be unhappy that it took so long.

This may be true, but I doubt it describes most of the people who are complaining. Vans spent their engine deposits on other things (!) and now wants them to commit to paying more money than they agreed to, apparently (1) without yet committing to a true third party escrow for the new funds, (2) without committing to a timeline (or even to FIFO, as far as I can tell) for engine delivery, and (3) without even confirming that there won't be more price increases. Those are not minor complaints, and my sympathies lie with the customers who did what they were supposed to do. I suspect the vast majority of the disaffected, given the option, would rather receive better treatment than “burn Vans completely to the ground.”

 

[NavyS3BNFO]

My offer arrived on my 2022 Thunderbolt order and based on the price gap and timeline I'm thinking of just ordering a non TB engine and rolling the dice on ever getting my deposit back with a rejection of the new offer. That course would put me at about the same price point assuming I lose the deposit and maybe a faster engine delivery.

My biggest mistake was ordering a TB engine. Should've just stuck with the regular Lycoming. Considering price differential and long lead times the TB engines don't make much sense to me now. Now I'm kinda stuck but your logic makes sense.

 

[sc_pilot]

Reading through the threads recently and listening to the rhetoric back and forth - I'm reminded that Vans told the court they expected 70% of the customers to accept the new agreement, and about 30% to walk. The actual numbers came in very close to that, I believe it was 65% acceptance at the last released information, and that was before the engine/prop/avionics information was sent out. More will certainly sign up now and push that number toward the expected 70%.

Meanwhile, here on the forums, I'm noticing a LOT of biting cynical rhetoric from a FEW key players. It's obvious who the 30% are, and it's obvious they don't intend to go away quietly. It's their right to mouth off about it, I suppose. Some folks will not be happy until Vans burns completely to the ground, and then they will be unhappy that it took so long.

Well here let me add to your metrics… I’m not renewing but I’m also not mouthing off about it. While the increased amount isn’t unreasonable… Their new contract, payment terms, lack of cancelation policy/refund, payment protection, and no information regarding engine availability, stock on hand, or delivery timeline all is very risky. I’m not comfortable sending Van’s $41,000 to complete my engine order. I wish them luck in their recovery but it won’t be on my dime anymore.

 

[QuixoteAg]

Just got my reorder offer and elected to stay the course - my 6 needs an engine and although it will cost more than planned, I trust that the money held 'in trust' under the eyes of the bankruptcy court will not be used for other purposes. My uptick in cost was around 5% .

 

[georgemohr]

Reading through the threads recently and listening to the rhetoric back and forth - I'm reminded that Vans told the court they expected 70% of the customers to accept the new agreement, and about 30% to walk. The actual numbers came in very close to that, I believe it was 65% acceptance at the last released information, and that was before the engine/prop/avionics information was sent out. More will certainly sign up now and push that number toward the expected 70%.

Meanwhile, here on the forums, I'm noticing a LOT of biting cynical rhetoric from a FEW key players. It's obvious who the 30% are, and it's obvious they don't intend to go away quietly. It's their right to mouth off about it, I suppose. Some folks will not be happy until Vans burns completely to the ground, and then they will be unhappy that it took so long.

Completely agree. And the worst part is that the vocal minority is actively working against their own interests. Even if a person decides to bail out on this project, if Vans goes down, most of what they have invested becomes devalued badly. Who would buy someone's partially completed kit for an airplane with no support or backing? I think if I were going to punch out I'd be super quiet about it and hope that most others didn't do the same.

 

[squeakersc063]

Completely agree. And the worst part is that the vocal minority is actively working against their own interests. Even if a person decides to bail out on this project, if Vans goes down, most of what they have invested becomes devalued badly. Who would buy someone's partially completed kit for an airplane with no support or backing? I think if I were going to punch out I'd be super quiet about it and hope that most others didn't do the same.

Depends on what you consider working against our best interests is. I'm not concerned about the resell value of my parts, I'm concerned about throwing more money after bad money and what possible other options there are. It's extremely hard to find information typically on VAF since it's so heavily moderated and unfortunately, it's the only place that Vans really refers to when all these concerns and questions get asked then deleted. Right now, I'm war dialing engine manufacturers for other avenues towards a Lycoming or similar engine. The offer as it's presented just does not work for me and if I can cancel that order and place a different order on engine I will.

 

[[email protected]]

I'm thankful that I have a hobby to keep me busy in retirement
I'm thankful that Vans is still in business and shipping kits and parts
I'm thankful that Dick VanGrunsven cares enough about his legacy and his customers to lend a failing company millions of dollars
I'm thankful that Dick's wife (and likely their children) support his decision
I'm thankful my laser cut parts were replaced
I'm thankful my engine will still be far less expensive than buying directly from somewhere else
I'm thankful Vans has very inexpensive shipping charges when I just need a few nuts and bolts
I'm thankful Vans lets me pick up my kits at the factory rather than pay freight shipping
I'm thankful Vans has knowledgable support staff that will give me free advice and support
I'm thankful Greg and many others at Vans are working overtime to help us
I'm thankful we get updates even though they are less frequent than we'd like
I'm thankful Vans has attorneys that understand bankruptcy law and can represent their (and our) interests in court
And finally, I'm thankful for Doug and VAF. My build would be far more difficult and costly without all the support here

We have much to be thankful for. I could add many more to this list but I need to get back out to fitting my HS tip fairing....

WOW I couldn't have said it any better. I agree. I don't have a dog in the fight currently. I own a couple RV-6's and only need parts for new rudder.
Here's to hopin and prayin that the mother ship survives the journey.
My luck varies Fixit

 

[airguy]

It's extremely hard to find information typically on VAF since it's so heavily moderated and unfortunately,

I've found that most of the stuff that gets "moderated" here is not information you can count on and depend on anyway. I doubt anyone can provide any evidence of a single credible statement from Vans, or Lycoming, or Hartzell etc etc that was "moderated". Any statement from anyone else at this point is heresay and can't be trusted.

 

[N82VM]

We need the details of the "Trust" account. Who has authority, what that authority is, exactly what triggers movement of funds, what is required of those funds, what triggers termination of the account, etc etc etc. We should be privy to the document that governs the formation, execution, and disposition of that "Trust" account. Just telling me in an email that its separate from general funds does not suffice.

 

[georgemohr]

We need the details of the "Trust" account. Who has authority, what that authority is, exactly what triggers movement of funds, what is required of those funds, what triggers termination of the account, etc etc etc. We should be privy to the document that governs the formation, execution, and disposition of that "Trust" account. Just telling me in an email that its separate from general funds does not suffice.

I really dont think you do. There is no "trust" account in any meaningful way. You are putting money into a C11 company in the hopes they pull through. If they don't that money is gone. Make your go-nogo decision based on that risk. Personally, we decided to accept that risk. I really do believe they will pull through this.

 

[Dan 57]

Van's cheerleader or a Van's hater

An overall very good post Cholley6, all valid points, thanks for that.

My only doubt is regarding those attributes... the opposite of hater in this very case would not be cheerleader but apostle, and I seriously doubt there are any Van's hater here.
Reading thru those posts shows supporters, then a majority wading thru uncertainty, and some angry ones. But I don't think, and certainly hope that no one wishes Van's to go down the drain.

One common point to all forum participants, we are all fond of our little fun machines, love dreaming about them, building them, maintaining them, and love the Total Performance they offer, for many more years hopefully.