Is there a path to take a deregistered RV-3 and get it a new airworthiness certificat

There is a chap in TN who made a unicorn, an RV-3A. He then had some health issues and decided to part it out rather than sell it as a complete aircraft for "liability reasons". He has sold the original engine, he has everything else including the engine mount and headers.

From what I can gather he has de-registered the aircraft, removed any N number from the fuselage and is selling the airframe "as is".

I'm curious if it is possible to get the airplane re-inspected by a DAR to get a new airworthiness certificate ? What would be involved in such an exercise ? I have a suitable engine for it.

Thanks

KeithO said:

There is a chap in TN who made a unicorn, an RV-3A. He then had some health issues and decided to part it out rather than sell it as a complete aircraft for "liability reasons". He has sold the original engine, he has everything else including the engine mount and headers.
From what I can gather he has de-registered the aircraft, removed any N number from the fuselage and is selling the airframe "as is".
I'm curious if it is possible to get the airplane re-inspected by a DAR to get a new airworthiness certificate ? What would be involved in such an exercise ? I have a suitable engine for it.
Thanks

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Kinda depends on why it was de-registered. If it was listed as "destroyed" then there is no path back. The original builder will always be the builder. That cannot be legally changed.

It just says cancelled. N942BB is the original registration. All it needs is an engine, but that would not constitute 51% of the build of the airplane and I assume there will be a lot of documentation that would have to be fulfilled. I would need to buy a set of plans to get a builder # and at least have a bill of sale for the airframe.

Some pictures from the listing

This is why I avoid nearly complete airframes for sale, tough to get airworthiness. There's a Glasair 3 airframe that is essentially finished but I had nothing to do with the build. It's been through several owners through the years and I think the builder is deceased. It has never had a airworthiness cert.

KeithO said:

...I'm curious if it is possible to get the airplane re-inspected by a DAR to get a new airworthiness certificate ? What would be involved in such an exercise ? I have a suitable engine for it.

Thanks

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This plane has been listed (and relisted) for quite a while. It's also on Nashville Craigslist. It was discussed on this forum in the past (maybe in the Classified section, because I can't find the past discussion).

I have no idea what avenue there is for getting the airplane airworthy with regard to paperwork, but that could be one reason why it hasn't sold.

Perhaps you can reach out to a DAR in your area (or the FSDO) and ask if they see a path forward, since those are the folks you'd be dealing with if you bought it.

KeithO said:

It just says cancelled. N942BB is the original registration. All it needs is an engine, but that would not constitute 51% of the build of the airplane and I assume there will be a lot of documentation that would have to be fulfilled. I would need to buy a set of plans to get a builder # and at least have a bill of sale for the airframe.

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At this point, the 51% rule has no relation to the aircraft. Even if you disassembled and rebuilt the entire aircraft, any work you did would be considered a repair not a build. Mr. Baggett is and always will be the builder. That cannot be changed!

Mel, so if this was treated as a repair, is their a path back to airworthiness that way ? A different engine would certainly be a "significant change" so back to phase 1 for a certain number of hours ?

KeithO said:

Mel, so if this was treated as a repair, is their a path back to airworthiness that way ? A different engine would certainly be a "significant change" so back to phase 1 for a certain number of hours ?

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Since it is not now registered, a recurrent airworthiness certificate would be needed. This would be similar to an original airworthiness and phase I flight testing requirements would be based on the logbook entries, and new phase I requirement would be somewhat up to the inspector.

I suspect there will not be any logbooks. A full 40 hour phase 1 would not be a concern, mainly just getting a new airworthiness certificate.

Registration

N942BB shows current registration for RV3. Same N number, same builder, on previous RV6 registration cancelled.
The vast majority of canceled registrations are for expiration under the old 3 year renewal. Now the registrations are good for 7 years.
The pertinent word is "destroyed" as explained in Mel's first post.
Even destroyed is not an absolute. I know of an airplane that was in a fender bender decades ago and the accident report says destroyed. This was an error by the FAA, the fender bender happened 60 years ago and the airplane has been properly registered and flying most of the years since.

Mel said:

Since it is not now registered, a recurrent airworthiness certificate would be needed. This would be similar to an original airworthiness and phase I flight testing requirements would be based on the logbook entries, and new phase I requirement would be somewhat up to the inspector.

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You're going to need maintenance logs to obtain a recurrent airworthiness certificate.
From what I understand of the situation, any inspector will really be sticking his/her neck out to re-certificate this aircraft.
Obviously the builder will probably not cooperate as he no longer wants to be associated with this aircraft.
To certificate this aircraft with a different builder would be against regulations.

My advice would be to avoid this aircraft!

Mel said:

You're going to need maintenance logs to obtain a recurrent airworthiness certificate.
From what I understand of the situation, any inspector will really be sticking his/her neck out to re-certificate this aircraft.
Obviously the builder will probably not cooperate as he no longer wants to be associated with this aircraft.
To certificate this aircraft with a different builder would be against regulations.

My advice would be to avoid this aircraft!

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Sounds like the seller has sunk his own boat in this case...

RV3

Here's a likely possibility:
original registration 10/2012
current expiration date:10/2028
Airworthiness: 11/07/2012
FAA has had a serious backlog in processing registration. Recently the registration duration has changed from 3 to 7 years.
Likely that the registration was cancelled for expiration, then reinstated with the change in duration.
If the logbooks are missing start new logbooks.
If airworthiness certificate is missing order a new one from FAA.

Just had the same exact situation with a Stearman we rebuilt. Previous owner deregistered it many years ago and at the same time wrote a letter to the FAA stating it was disassembled. FAA doesn't have a designation for disassembled so they used destroyed. The plane had a special airworthiness certificate when it was deregistered. Rebuilt the entire plane and yes before we could get an N number assigned and registered the inspector from the FSDO had to inspect it even though the letter the previous owner wrote about it being disassembled was on file and sent pictures of the assembled plane. We actually are going to be able to have the special airworthiness certificate reverted back to a standard one. I agree the builder will never change and this will be a repair. All documents can be replaced. Logbooks would be nice but not a show stopper. Data plate is more important. Many planes been found and restored to flying status without logbooks. I would recommend setting up a meeting with FSDO in your area and get there input on path forward. If you feel comfortable with the path then go for it but you will need to own it before you have the final results due to current owners concerns and length of time to complete the process.

My brother is rebuilding an RV-4 that was deregistered do to being destroyed. When he sent in registration they denied it. When he called the registration branch and told them he bought it salvage and is repairing it. They told him to send in pictures of the airframe and data tag when he's done and they'll get it registered.

Brandon

Brockster said:

Data plate is more important. Many planes been found and restored to flying status without logbooks.

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Stearmans are the poster child for this. I'd guess that most of the ones I've seen or flown were rebuilt from nothing more than a portion of the original steel tube -- if that -- and the data plate after it was pulled out of some barn where it had been sitting for a few decades. Thank you Dusters & Sprayers Inc...

I'd imagine getting an airworthiness certificate for an RV would be a similar exercise. Theoretically it should be easier, since there's no type certificate that a repaired or rebuilt airframe must to conform to.

--Ron

ronrapp said:

I'd imagine getting an airworthiness certificate for an RV would be a similar exercise. Theoretically it should be easier, since there's no type certificate that a repaired or rebuilt airframe must to conform to.
--Ron

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Unfortunately it's not easier! A certified aircraft has a known manufacturer.
An amateur-built aircraft where the original builder is uncooperative can get sticky.

Apples & Oranges!

I'm confused by the terms here. There's an Airworthiness Certificate, and there's a Registration, and the posts seem to be using them interchangebly.

The OP talks about it being "de-registered", but does that mean the *registration* has been turned in or expired, or the A/W cert has been revoked/rescinded by the FAA? If a registration expires or is turned in, does the A/W cert ALSO become invalid?

It's my understanding, and I could be wrong, that for EAB, once the A/W cert has been issued, that's that. *Registration* is a different thing, requiring renewal every 7 years now. And, of course, to actually operate the aircraft, it needs an annual CI with sign-off.

Mel might chime in but I believe that if a aircraft is listed as destroyed the Airworthiness Cert becomes invalid.
Is there a existing Airworthiness Certificate with the plane? If not good luck getting a replacement.

A Bird Dog Story

Some moons ago, a friend named Sonny built an ultralight Fischer J-3 Kitten, shaping the outlines and paint job like a Cessna Bird Dog. He flew it as an ultralight although I always kind of suspected it might have been a wee bit heavy for that. Sonny died a few years after that. A couple of years ago, I was contacted by a new owner, saying he was trying to register the airplane as an EAB. FAA balked at registering it since the new owner could not document a builder. As far as the feds knew, the airplane sprang spontaneously from river mud or something. Somehow, the owner found my name and asked if I could verify Sonny as the builder. It was a strange deal since I knew and worked with Sonny when he was building the airplane and we talked about it, but I had never seen him actually do any of the work. I didn't see the airplane until it spent a few weeks in my hangar. I referred the new owner to another friend who may have seen Sonny do the building. Point of all this of course, is that with no official builder, FAA could not legally issue an airworthiness cert, same as the RV-3A the OP talks about. I never did hear how it turned out with the Bird Dog. It's sad, but I suspect the RV-3A is going to become a parts donor. I would only buy it if it had parts I needed and the price was right.

There is now an RV-4 for sale under very similar circumstances. Engine has been sold, Aircraft deregistered, no AWC or registration. I made contact with the seller and told him he was trying to sell parts that could be used in the repair of a different airplane, and as such it would be worth less than an airworthy airframe that is being sold with a current AWC and registration.

Just to close the loop on the original RV3 that started this thread, the seller/builder finally did contact me after several days. He disputed the deregistered info on the FAA website saying that he had deregistered an RV6 that he previously owned and that info should not have been captured under the N number of the RV3. He also said that the RV3 was currently registered and did indeed have an airworthiness certificate.

I have decided I will not pursue a single seater, a 2 seater will facilitate training and my wife plans on doing her instrument and then commercial rating. So If I can actually find an RV4 with a run out engine that the owner can sell as a core, I could go ahead with the install of the 150hp Honda engine that I have and go back into phase 1 flight for the "significant change" and that would suit me fine. I can then do an IFR capable avionics upgrade (for training, not to fly in real IFR weather) and we would have a great economical trainer for her to put several hundred hours on.

In case anyone else was interested, if you do a search in the FAA registration database using the registration number visible in one of the posted photos, you’ll find that it shows the registration as assigned and valid, and that there is a current Airworthiness Certificate assigned to the aircraft.
With this being the case, there should be no problem getting the aircraft back in the air.