[Jjackh10]

Someone on another thread mentioned that RV's (really aviation in general) will no longer be attainable for most people. I agree completely, myself an example.

I had finally got to a spot in life where building my own RV looked feasible. Maybe even start sometime next year. It would still have to be a budget build; second hand kits, build my own engine, and light on the avionics.

My kids are grown, wife is an ex, and a solid six figure income. But second hand kit pricing will follow the new kit price increases. core engines will continue to climb in price. And the ridiculous price increase of everything else (housing, pickup trucks north of $100k, utilities, fuel, taxes groceries, etc) over the last few years pretty much seals it.

I just re-read that and it sounds like poor me. Not my intent at all, sorry about that. The point I'm trying to make is I'm sure there are many people just like me. I've got a feeling this will have a big impact on vans future. I don't believe they will get the predicted 70% of deposit holders to accept the new pricing (likely because many just can't). I don't believe they are going to continue selling kits at a rate anywhere close to what they have been. I wouldn't be surprised to see Vans go the route of Glasair and Lancair. Low volume toys for the wealthy. Oh well, the new Ducati Diavel looks fun hahaha.

 

[AlpineYoda]

I think it depends on what you want. Yes, the RV-10 and RV-14 may price some people out of the market, especially for those who want an io-540 and an all-glass panel. The match drilled kits take a lot more effort for Van's to build the pieces, but for the builder it keeps getting closer and closer to a giant lego set.

At the other end of the spectrum, some of the single seat kits leave far more for the builder to do. I would expect that they will stay much cheaper, since they are single-place aircraft (smaller / lighter), the builder does a far higher % of the work, there are more options for smaller secondhand / overhauled engines, and the panel is usually pretty simple.

So, if you are hoping for a four seat RV-10 with a cockpit that will rival a 787, yes, people will get priced out. The gap between that plane and a Cirrus or Bonanza will narrow. But for someone who wants to put in 4,000 hours buildng a single seat much more from scratch, there probably is still room for you.

 

[MacCool]

Yes, as it turns out, General Aviation is not as affordable as Van's made it look. Not even as affordable as they thought it was just a couple of years ago.

 

[bmellis11]

I think this situation will open the market to other, leaner kit manufacturers that can target people who just want sheet metal parts and a good design. Van's seems to be targeting the wealthy buyer with the QB kits, and it seems like the costs of offering those kits is driving up the costs of SB kits. A different manufacturer who can use modern highly automated manufacturing processes could probably sell SB kits profitably at better prices by not having to worry about subsidizing QB and airplane manufacturing (RV-12) divisions and the associated large workforce and uncontrollable costs.

 

[OKAV8r]

There will be a shakeup in the market. Builders with partially completed airplanes will bail out, probably creating a soft market of projects for sale. Also, figure in while kit prices are up 30+ percent, customer confidence will most certainly drop overall, leading to a softening market. THEN, if the economy in general weakens, there might be a 'perfect storm' creating a buyer's market.

 

[nohoflyer]

I think this situation will open the market to other, leaner kit manufacturers that can target people who just want sheet metal parts and a good design. Van's seems to be targeting the wealthy buyer with the QB kits, and it seems like the costs of offering those kits is driving up the costs of SB kits. A different manufacturer who can use modern highly automated manufacturing processes could probably sell SB kits profitably at better prices by not having to worry about subsidizing QB and airplane manufacturing (RV-12) divisions and the associated large workforce and uncontrollable costs.

This. I said this in an earlier post. As a SB builder, I’m a bit frustrated that I know have to help finance the QB kits with their steep shipping and manufacturing costs. Vans should be considerate of this and make QB kits quite a bit more expensive and keep SB kits more reasonable.

To the OP’s last point, I agree Vans is in big trouble as they price people out of this hobby. I hope their recovery plan doesn’t assume the same demand.

 

[climberrn]

Choices

The number of people I see around town driving a new truck or fancy electric cars is mind boggling. Going out to dinner a couple times a week……. I know airplane ownership is not cheap but it’s not as bad as many think.

Right now I’m flying a beautiful RV6 that has comparable performance to the newest and greatest Vans kits out there. Sure, I can’t carry a ton of stuff, and only have one screen, but it works. Took the money out of our retirement account so we have something to fly while the 7 is down for repairs. The retirement money was barely making any interest, so let the money sit in an airplane. Bet I’ll get better than a couple percent back when we sell it.

I’m sure you can find a way to make it work.

 

[lyosha]

I don't believe they will get the predicted 70% of deposit holders to accept the new pricing (likely because many just can't).

You are discounting that Vans has tens of thousands of $ from each of us that likely goes poof if we don't agree to pay higher prices. The price increase is likely calibrated with the calculation of the deposits already in hand to make it just economically inconvenient to cancel to accept new terms.

I don't believe they are going to continue selling kits at a rate anywhere close to what they have been.

This is a given - the COVID-era boom in experimental aviation is over, not just at Vans.

 

[bmellis11]

The number of people I see around town driving a new truck or fancy electric cars is mind boggling. Going out to dinner a couple times a week……. I know airplane ownership is not cheap but it’s not as bad as many think.

Right now I’m flying a beautiful RV6 that has comparable performance to the newest and greatest Vans kits out there. Sure, I can’t carry a ton of stuff, and only have one screen, but it works. Took the money out of our retirement account so we have something to fly while the 7 is down for repairs. The retirement money was barely making any interest, so let the money sit in an airplane. Bet I’ll get better than a couple percent back when we sell it.

I’m sure you can find a way to make it work.

With respect, you're talking about buying an airplane that was built when kits and engines probably cost less than half or even one-third of what they do today. That definitely creates a good buy situation. But the OP is talking about the ability to build his own plane and how that is becoming unobtainable. It sounds like he was budgeting a certain amount, and the cost went up 60%+ in a two year period. That kind of increase blows most people's budgets up, and it's not in anyway in line with inflation and rises in income.

It sounds like you got into the market at the right time, because with costs going up like they are, the used plane prices are likely to go up as well. If they don't, then even fewer people will get into kit building because it will mean being lucky to get half your money back if you have to sell.

 

[Malndi]

Bring back the 6?

Rather than open a market to a lean manufacturer, perhaps Vans should go back to it’s most successful formula and re-introduce the 6 with its lower production cost and appeal to the ‘builder’ cohort.

 

[Jjackh10]

All good points. This isn't a vans only issue either. Up until now you could build a RV-7 for same or less than a Kitfox. I want an RV-7 btw.

 

[Girraf]

I don't believe they will get the predicted 70% of deposit holders to accept the new pricing (likely because many just can't

I disagree, but like your prediction, mine is just as baseless. I suspect many will agree to the higher pricing and then offload the kits on the secondary market as the best means of minimizing loss. Where Van's is likely to feel the pain is in how few NEW orders from that group show up after fulfilling the ones they already have.

 

[climberrn]

It sounds like you got into the market at the right time, because with costs going up like they are, the used plane prices are likely to go up as well. If they don't, then even fewer people will get into kit building because it will mean being lucky to get half your money back if you have to sell.

Yes, and no. Bought the -6 less than a year ago.

On another note. Just saw a listing for a nice -3 for sale for $35K. Still options out there.

 

[spatsch]

Open Source Airplane

I think one way to combat this is to have an open source airplane. So before you think I am totally crazy hear me out.

Let's say we could get a good 2 seat sheet metal design open sourced. The plans could be available electronically for free. That's working great for software. I am pretty sure part of the software you are using right now to look at my post is open source.

Then:

- Scratch builders could just buy material and build it all by hand
- Just in time manufacturer could built any part just in time from entire kits to just the difficult parts the scratch builder doesn't want to handle.
- 3rd party vendors could put together kits for the people that don't want to deal with just in time manufacturers or read plans at that level of detail
- Build shops could set up everything to get you from start to finish in 5 hours over a zoom call (or whatever else you might want).

Now before you tell me that airplanes are really different and you would never trust anything open source just be aware that your banking transaction, your cell phone, your glass avionics, your autopilot all use open source software components combined with proprietary components. So your life already depends on free open source software why not go all the way.

This would not only reduce the price point but would provide competition on cost vs. time with different vendors filling different demands. The market will work that out.

I am happy to build the first one after I am done with the DR-1.

Oliver

 

[GalinHdz]

Someone on another thread mentioned that RV's (really aviation in general) will no longer be attainable for most people.

NEWS FLASH!! Aviation has NEVER been attainable for most people. Not now, not ever. You may not consider yourself "rich" but to most everybody in the US, and the world, you are "rich". Rich enough to afford an airplane.

Only 1.2% of the US population (424,000 out of 331,000,000) have a pilot's license and the vast majority of them don't own an airplane. Consider yourself blessed.

 

[planenutz]

You already pretty much have 3 open source RV's to choose from... the RV-3, the RV-4 and the RV-6. All of these aircraft can be scratch-built built from plans if you're so inclined and there are plans sets available online for free. Why are people not building them in this way...? Probably because people are impatient and "want it now", deferring to the kits where its perceived all the hard work has been done for you. It's true most of the thinking has been done for you, but not the hard work. The easy work has been done for you and the hard work remains. Certainly the legacy kits were more basic by todays standards and there will always be a market for those who wish to do it from raw materials, but the kit manufacturing technology has come a long way and if I had the choice I know which I'd prefer.

While kit sales might slow up for a while I'd be pretty sure they'll bounce back. Yes, the prices are higher and yes there are some who will not be able to afford it but its all relative. For us here in NZ where the Pacific Pecos (NZ$) is at .60 cents even the RV-12 kit is going to cost you over NZ$220,000 to build. If you think you're going to build an RV-14 for under $350,000 you're kidding yourself. What I'm alluding to here is that regardless of the kit prices there will always be people who will save hard and justify the cost.

We can already see a lot of unfinished kits coming on the market. These will be good buying for a while. When I started building I couldn't afford the whole kit and only purchased the empennage,. The wing kit came a year later, but the fuselage kit was several years later as by then I had a family and a mortgage to pay. I still made the end goal - eventually. It comes down to determination more than cost.


Cheers,

 

[climberrn]

I think one way to combat this is to have an open source airplane. So before you think I am totally crazy hear me out.

Let's say we could get a good 2 seat sheet metal design open sourced. The plans could be available electronically for free. That's working great for software. I am pretty sure part of the software you are using right now to look at my post is open source.

Then:

- Scratch builders could just buy material and build it all by hand
- Just in time manufacturer could built any part just in time from entire kits to just the difficult parts the scratch builder doesn't want to handle.
- 3rd party vendors could put together kits for the people that don't want to deal with just in time manufacturers or read plans at that level of detail
- Build shops could set up everything to get you from start to finish in 5 hours over a zoom call (or whatever else you might want).

Now before you tell me that airplanes are really different and you would never trust anything open source just be aware that your banking transaction, your cell phone, your glass avionics, your autopilot all use open source software components combined with proprietary components. So your life already depends on free open source software why not go all the way.

This would not only reduce the price point but would provide competition on cost vs. time with different vendors filling different demands. The market will work that out.

I am happy to build the first one after I am done with the DR-1.

Oliver

Excellent idea. The Thorp T18 would be a promising start. The parts were designed to be made with forms and transfer punches using standard sheets of aluminum. Prop and engine would still hurt the finances but would be a much more affordable option.

 

[rv6ejguy]

This is a given - the COVID-era boom in experimental aviation is over, not just at Vans.

Ran's, Sling and Zenith are super busy. Any vacuum left by high prices at Van's will eventually be filled by others who are capable of moving into this market.

 

[JMS1198]

I disagree, but like your prediction, mine is just as baseless. I suspect many will agree to the higher pricing and then offload the kits on the secondary market as the best means of minimizing loss. Where Van's is likely to feel the pain is in how few NEW orders from that group show up after fulfilling the ones they already have.

I disagree…I think most won’t risk losing more money unless their deposits are protected…escrow until a complete kit ships….a lot of people will shy away from trusting Vans with large engine deposits (22m have in deposits that have been spent…big number…I’m in for 10.5k)…I feel bad for the employees at Vans that had nothing to do with the current situation and will be working for a company that took over 6.5 million in deposits (Vans estimate at 70 percent). That’s a lot of lost, hard earned money, people are very upset.

 

[Amadeus]

NEWS FLASH!! Aviation has NEVER been attainable for most people. Not now, not ever. You may not consider yourself "rich" but to most everybody in the US, and the world, you are "rich". Rich enough to afford an airplane.

Only 1.2% of the US population (424,000 out of 331,000,000) have a pilot's license and the vast majority of them don't own an airplane. Consider yourself blessed.

https://youtu.be/dJD0lB4zRes?si=r_BCNAxO1TipSS-v

 

[msires]

Ran's, Sling and Zenith are super busy. Any vacuum left by high prices at Van's will eventually be filled by others who are capable of moving into this market.

We have a Zenith Builder assist in our airpark. He said Zenith has had a 10% increase each year the last 3 years. Thats a 33% increase (compounding is wonderful) over the last 3 years. Van's was behind, and have really just caught up.

 

[Walt]

NEWS FLASH!! Aviation has NEVER been attainable for most people. Not now, not ever. You may not consider yourself "rich" but to most everybody in the US, and the world, you are "rich". Rich enough to afford an airplane.

Only 1.2% of the US population (424,000 out of 331,000,000) have a pilot's license and the vast majority of them don't own an airplane. Consider yourself blessed.

I think the OP is referring to the post I made, which is what I see...

I suspect the entire home-building movement is going to change drastically in the near future. The cost of building has gone from affordable for many, to out of reach of most. I built my 7 raising 3 kids on ‘blue collar’ wages, a new engine now costs almost as much as I spent on my complete aircraft which included a new engine and Hartzell. I feel extremely fortunate I got into this game when I did, no way could I afford it in today’s market. Today’s average young worker can’t even afford to own a home, this hobby has unfortunately moved to the 1 percenters. Heck some folks are spending as much on their paint jobs and interior then it cost me to build the airplane, times are a changin.

 

[BobTurner]

…..So before you think I am totally crazy hear me out……

- Build shops could set up everything to get you from start to finish in 5 hours over a zoom call (or whatever else you might want).

Your last point, above, is of course blatantly illegal. And IMHO the FAA is never going to go along with this. Everyone including the FAA knows that some (many?) ‘assist’ shops already violate the rules, it’s just too hard to prove ‘intent’ in court, unless the owner is totally clueless.

+1 for Gatlin’s post. Flying has never been cheap. Personally, if I thought I had to have a $100K pickup (instead of a $20K Hyundai) I most likely wouldn’t own an RV.

 

[Roadjunkie1]

It ain't me. I ain't no Senator's son...no....

NEWS FLASH!! Aviation has NEVER been attainable for most people. Not now, not ever. You may not consider yourself "rich" but to most everybody in the US, and the world, you are "rich". Rich enough to afford an airplane.

It is/was a common misconception that one had to be rich to own an airplane. Most of the people I know who own airplanes are not rich....because they own an airplane! I was a 21yo hippie from San Francisco that ended up in Montana and was able to reestablish my love for flying there. I was working as a mailman, saving money for college, when I bought my J-3 Cub. She still sits in the hangar. My instructor has been one of my life mentors! He still flies well into his 80's! He definitely was not and is not rich. Flies a PA-12. Has more hours than most airline pilots, the majority of which was 100 feet off the ground flying oil pipelines for a living.

Working OSH for 35 years, I have met a vast cross-section of those people who own airplanes. Yes, there are the Howard DGA types and the Wardbird types. But most of the pilots I have met fly for the passion they have for, figuratively and literally, being "off the planet". For most, that is their 'hobby' and source of sanity. A Cessna 140 does not cost what a Stearman does, but gets you up in the air. I built SuzieQ because I wanted an airplane that would get me to Montana in 2.5 hours rather than 5; OSH in 6 rather than 13. It was a way to experience another way of getting off the planet!

Have a passion? There is always a way to make that happen. Is it getting more expensive? Yep. What isn't? Priced sail boats lately? I can understand people shying away from flying due to the regulations and certain government agencies actually NOT here to help. But everything worth doing has it's hurdles one has to jump.

Only 1.2% of the US population (424,000 out of 331,000,000) have a pilot's license and the vast majority of them don't own an airplane. Consider yourself blessed.

And only 7% of that 424,000 are women! Everyone who is interested in flying needs to be encouraged and helped along if we can. I congratulate women who fly and let them know they are one of the 7%. Most already are aware of that.

This is a vain attempt to blunt the doom-and-gloom postings I have been seeing here lately. Never give up..........

And, yes, I feel quite blessed...... Happy Holidays! I think I'll go look up some airplane stuff Santa should be bringing me....

 

[Low Pass]

I think the OP is referring to the post I made, which is what I see...

I suspect the entire home-building movement is going to change drastically in the near future. The cost of building has gone from affordable for many, to out of reach of most. I built my 7 raising 3 kids on ‘blue collar’ wages, a new engine now costs almost as much as I spent on my complete aircraft which included a new engine and Hartzell. I feel extremely fortunate I got into this game when I did, no way could I afford it in today’s market. Today’s average young worker can’t even afford to own a home, this hobby has unfortunately moved to the 1 percenters. Heck some folks are spending as much on their paint jobs and interior then it cost me to build the airplane, times are a changin.

They are indeed. In addition to inflation, I think a lot of those who would have bought Bonanza 20 years ago, are buying a "cute little homemade" RV. (Go figure - they actually don't fall out of the sky and are faster than that A36.) Albeit, an RV with a $30,000 paint job and $40,000 panel. The rising tide floats all boats, and depletes the thin supply of engines, props, etc, etc.

An optimistic observation yesterday. A rich fireman, err, sorry - FIREFIGHTER, just bought himself a nice -6A a few hangar doors down from me.

 

[spatsch]

You already pretty much have 3 open source RV's to choose from... the RV-3, the RV-4 and the RV-6. All of these aircraft can be scratch-built built from plans if you're so inclined and there are plans sets available online for free. Why are people not building them in this way...? Probably because people are impatient and "want it now", deferring to the kits where its perceived all the hard work has been done for you. It's true most of the thinking has been done for you, but not the hard work. The easy work has been done for you and the hard work remains. Certainly the legacy kits were more basic by todays standards and there will always be a market for those who wish to do it from raw materials, but the kit manufacturing technology has come a long way and if I had the choice I know which I'd prefer.

While kit sales might slow up for a while I'd be pretty sure they'll bounce back. Yes, the prices are higher and yes there are some who will not be able to afford it but its all relative. For us here in NZ where the Pacific Pecos (NZ$) is at .60 cents even the RV-12 kit is going to cost you over NZ$220,000 to build. If you think you're going to build an RV-14 for under $350,000 you're kidding yourself. What I'm alluding to here is that regardless of the kit prices there will always be people who will save hard and justify the cost.

We can already see a lot of unfinished kits coming on the market. These will be good buying for a while. When I started building I couldn't afford the whole kit and only purchased the empennage,. The wing kit came a year later, but the fuselage kit was several years later as by then I had a family and a mortgage to pay. I still made the end goal - eventually. It comes down to determination more than cost.


Cheers,

So let's go with this are you saying I could digitize those plans, put them on line for free so people can use them with modern manufacturing methods?

I would think Van's would sue me for Intellectual Property violations if I did.

The goal here is to support everybody the way they want to build it not to dictate one to be the best. If you want cut everything by hand with metal shares go for it. If you want use modern manufacturing technology do .... .

E.g. I happen to have a fairly cheap (3k$) 3d router at home. For my DR-1 I am digitizing a lot of things and have the router cut them for me. I outsource other parts (and yes some are LCP...) to just in time manufacturers and yes some of them I just make by hand. That cuts WAY down on the actual build time and increases precision. I do it because it's fun for me which is what all of this is about.

If those plans are intellectual property free they would be a perfect start but I don't think they are.

Oliver

 

[spatsch]

Your last point, above, is of course blatantly illegal. And IMHO the FAA is never going to go along with this. Everyone including the FAA knows that some (many?) ‘assist’ shops already violate the rules, it’s just too hard to prove ‘intent’ in court, unless the owner is totally clueless.

Sorry I shouldn't have thrown that sarcastic comment in there. Just couldn't help myself.

Oliver

 

[pfitzuscg]

We have a Zenith Builder assist in our airpark. He said Zenith has had a 10% increase each year the last 3 years. Thats a 33% increase (compounding is wonderful) over the last 3 years. Van's was behind, and have really just caught up.

Have you checked Van's price increases over the same time period?

 

[chrispratt]

NEWS FLASH!! ...

Only 1.2% of the US population (424,000 out of 331,000,000) have a pilot's license and the vast majority of them don't own an airplane. Consider yourself blessed.

I believe the math is 0.128% based on your numbers.

Chris

 

[Mel]

I believe the math is 0.128% based on your numbers.
Chris

My calculator shows 1.28% for those numbers!

 

[chrispratt]

My calculator shows 1.28% for those numbers!

Mel: You need a new calculator. I use a TI-35 PLUS myself Old , but the batteries are new.

1.28% of 331,000,000 is 3,972,000. That's a lot of pilots.

Chris

 

[Mel]

Mel: You need a new calculator. I use a TI-35 PLUS myself Old , but the batteries are new.
1.28% of 331,000,000 is 3,972,000. That's a lot of pilots.
Chris

Sorry, You're right of course. My old TI calculator seemed to drop a digit.

 

[chrispratt]

Sorry, You're right of course. My old TI calculator seemed to drop a digit.

I can relate. Merry Christmas, Mel.

Chris

 

[sahrens]

Zenith

Ran's, Sling and Zenith are super busy. Any vacuum left by high prices at Van's will eventually be filled by others who are capable of moving into this market.

My Zenith 750 SD kit will arrive this week. I paid a deposit just after Oshkosh and was told it should ship on 15 December. The complete kit shipped on the 14th. They may be busy but they are getting kits out the door.

 

[Steve Crewdog]

The number of people I see around town driving a new truck or fancy electric cars is mind boggling.

It's not just airplanes. Several years ago a hangar at my airport came up for sale for about the same price it would cost to replace my 9-year-old Subaru, I had to decide between replacing her or buy the hangar. I decided to drive my Subaru until she dropped so I could buy the hangar, last year the hangar behind me sold for the price of a new house. Despite this, the developers I know still say there's more profit building homes than hangars, even though there is plenty of room at my GA-friendly airport with utilities already ran

P.S. I'm still driving that Subbie, she just turned 300,000 miles. And I'm 14 years into my 2 year SeaRey build.

 

[Snowflake]

Your last point, above, is of course blatantly illegal.

As he worded it, you're correct. But an open-source design could be made into an LSA, and built by a manufacturer, which would close off the range of options (plans through to complete aircraft).

 

[crabandy]

DR’s how to afford an RV still applies…….

Drive a well used/loved vehicle, bring your lunch to work and you don’t need cable if you’re working on an RV. These days the above easily adds up to $1500/month. $18,000/year and and a 10 year build it’ll be paid for.

 

[Dugaru]

Zenith

We've been building a Zenith 801 off and on for more than 23 years (you can't make that up!) and they have been absolutely great to deal with the whole time. They basically stopped promoting that model years ago, except for third-world agricultural spray operations apparently (!) but our support has continued to be fantastic. They're good folks.

My Zenith 750 SD kit will arrive this week. I paid a deposit just after Oshkosh and was told it should ship on 15 December. The complete kit shipped on the 14th. They may be busy but they are getting kits out the door.

 

[roadrunner20]

I built & first flighted my 7 in 2006.
From Florida, I've flown to the northeast, the Bahamas( 4x), Oshkosh(8X), SoCal, Lake Tahoe, Yellowstone & several places in between. I'm not rich, but when I talk to my hangar neighbors, I realize, my 7 is worth double of what it cost me to build it. It's amazing as I'm not concerned with it's worth today, but on where I can go tomorrow.

Fly safe & happy travels to my RV family

 

[airguy]

DR’s how to afford an RV still applies…….

Drive a well used/loved vehicle, bring your lunch to work and you don’t need cable if you’re working on an RV. These days the above easily adds up to $1500/month. $18,000/year and and a 10 year build it’ll be paid for.

When I started building my 9A, I was not anywhere close to the financial world I needed to be in to own/fly an airplane. But I knew that someday I would be - and I knew that I could build the airplane piece by piece and pay cash for it along the way, and take as long as it took. 8 years later I had a flying 9A and a good story to tell.

 

[RVDan]

Between 1994 and 1998, I built an RV-6 from the only kit available, slow build. No pre punched holes, most parts were sheets you cut to shape. Things requiring brake bends were a sheet with a bend, you figured it out from there. It took the better part of a month to build the wing and fuselage holding fixtures of your own design. The engine was rebuilt with a fixed pitch prop, and the instruments were basic VFR and employed used steam gages and I had a single VFR GPS/com . The interior was pretty basic. I painted the airplane myself. Total invested was about $50k. Using the BLS calculator, that is about $100k today.

Today even the slow build is prepunched and doesn’t require the holding fixtures. Everyone wants a new engine, not a rebuilt one, CS prop and glass of some sort is a requirement. Using a paint shop adds another $25k.

Vans responded to a demand for easier to build kits, which frankly makes homebuilding much more available to new builders, but correspondingly more expensive.

And here we are….

 

[GalinHdz]

I believe the math is 0.128% based on your numbers.

Chris

Basic math: 424,000/331,000,000 = 0.0012809688 but that is NOT percentage. Multiply by 100 to get percentage: 0.0012809688 * 100 = 1.2809688%

But unless you want to nit-pick, 1.2% is close enough for my point. We can still consider ourselves blessed.

 

[Mel]

Basic math: 424,000/331,000,000 = 0.0012809688 but that is NOT percentage. Multiply by 100 to get percentage: 0.0012809688 * 100 = 1.2809688%
But unless you want to nit-pick, 1.2% is close enough for my point. Consider yourself blessed.

Multiplying by 100 moves the decimal 2 places, not 3.

 

[RV7A Flyer]

Basic math: 424,000/331,000,000 = 0.0012809688 but that is NOT percentage. Multiply by 100 to get percentage: 0.0012809688 * 100 = 1.2809688%

But unless you want to nit-pick, 1.2% is close enough for my point. We can still consider ourselves blessed.

Is there a mathematical equivalent to the grammar police poster who errs in their own post?

 

[GalinHdz]

Multiplying by 100 moves the decimal 2 places, not 3.

You are correct. Pressed the wrong number on my calculator. And the correct number helps emphasize my initial point. We are still blessed in owning an airplane, unlike the vast majority of the US population.

Is there a mathematical equivalent to the grammar police poster who errs in their own post?

Yes. It is called "Murphy's Law".

 

[squeakersc063]

This. I said this in an earlier post. As a SB builder, I’m a bit frustrated that I know have to help finance the QB kits with their steep shipping and manufacturing costs. Vans should be considerate of this and make QB kits quite a bit more expensive and keep SB kits more reasonable.

To the OP’s last point, I agree Vans is in big trouble as they price people out of this hobby. I hope their recovery plan doesn’t assume the same demand.

I agree. The QB could double and the people who buy them shouldn't bat an eye.

 

[rhill]

New Prices

Well......... You might want to Bat an eye now!

 

[Michael Burbidge]

We have a Zenith Builder assist in our airpark. He said Zenith has had a 10% increase each year the last 3 years. Thats a 33% increase (compounding is wonderful) over the last 3 years. Van's was behind, and have really just caught up.

Yes but don’t forget that Vans also had price increases over the last three years. Vans was a profitable business prior to the mistakes of the last few years. In my opinion this 32% price hike is to finance their business mistakes.

 

[skylor]

Business

Yes but don’t forget that Vans also had price increases over the last three years. Vans was a profitable business prior to the mistakes of the last few years. In my opinion this 32% price hike is to finance their business mistakes.

Well, if a business is to remain in business it has to finance its mistakes and the customer ALWAYS pays, one way or another.

Skylor

 

[plehrke]

Two points that seems to be missing in all of these Vans Chapter 11 threads:

1) Prices should be, and are now are being adjusted for, supply and demand. It is inevitable in a free market. Big surge in demand over last few years and low supply due to issues with parts made/delivered means low supply therefore prices will rise. Yes, overall inflation is part of rise in the cost but the price should be set based on Vans market so increases in price may not track overall inflation. Only question was they should have risen a few years ago to timed better with initial demand surge and low supply issues.

2) Experimental Amateur Built was originally used by people that wanted to build their own airplane because they wanted to build their own airplane. Especially with the Vans airplane line, EAB has become a way for a pilot to more affordably own an airplane with better performance then you could ever get with a certified airplane. This has greatly increased supply/demand pressure on the EAB market over the last 20 years. See point 1 above.

No one could really predict the supply issues brought on by several issues discussed at length in other threads but the increase demand has be growing for years and was telegraphed by the extraordinary prices that RV were getting on the resale market.

Bonus point 3) the desire for EAB aircraft to be like a certified aircraft has driven RVs to be built with all the bells and whistles of a certified airplane increasing the cost to be close to a certified airplane. Not part of the Vans bankruptcy issue but high end interiors, paint, avionics, and new engines is also pricing a lot of people out of the RV market.