Here is a link to download the plan:
I haven't been able to review it yet, but wanted to get the ball rolling on discussion.
I haven't been able to review it yet, but wanted to get the ball rolling on discussion.
I look at it a little differently. When I finish my airplane it will be an even more significant accomplishment than the builders who came before me and had it "easy". They had shorter lead times, no LCP's, fewer delays, less uncertainty, FAR lower costs, etc.Still sour that my dream of building a plane will forever be tainted by this fiasco. I can’t look at my project and think, why did so many others have their dream come through all happy and rosy but us Covid builders have been put through the wringer.
“Why did so many others have their dream come through all happy and rosy…?”Well, happy to hear it’s 55% if that does in fact happen. Still sour that my dream of building a plane will forever be tainted by this fiasco. I can’t look at my project and think, why did so many others have their dream come through all happy and rosy but us Covid builders have been put through the wringer. No way to ever get that back. If nothing else, I’ve definitely learned a hard life lesson at a very young age. Any business dealings I make going forward, Van’s bankruptcy will always be at the forefront guarding me. I always said to myself “vans will never go bankrupt, they’re too big to fail”… boy was I wrong. Granted they didn’t “fail” but they did file bankruptcy. Well back to building…
Building my airplane has pushed me right to the limit of what I'm capable of doing. The bankruptcy has been a very unfortunate thing for all that have been affected but compared to all the other challenges I'm facing, it's a minor annoyance. Yes, builders have suffered but think about the employees at Vans or the VanGrunsven family. I'd much rather be in my shoes. My livelihood and legacy aren't affected by the bankruptcy - only my patience and bank account.
You must be young. What do Piper, American Airlines, Glasair,.... all have in common? Ans: They've all been through bankruptcy.I’ve definitely learned a hard life lesson at a very young age....... I always said to myself “vans will never go bankrupt, they’re too big to fail”… boy was I wrong. Granted they didn’t “fail” but they did file bankruptcy.
There are far more to add to that list…You must be young. What do Piper, American Airlines, Glasair,.... all have in common? Ans: They've all been through bankruptcy.
You know there are no buffalo in kentucky, we have them in Montana and in my freezer..... (do you have a geeky pocket protector and green shade visor?)Reading the plan with a nice Buffalo Trace so...
Note 3: Lycoming requires Van's pre-pay 50% of purchase price for the 12 engines on order at anyone time 90 days prior to scheduled manufacture with no refund once manufacturing starts. The engines are already presold to customers who have also paid a deposit, but having a liquidator follow through with paper work of delivery and collection of the balance customers owes for the engine and payment to Lycoming prior to shipment and confusion on engine options ordered will reduce proceeds by 20%.
I take this to mean that there are 12 engines on build order with Lycoming within any 90 day period (would include normal and TB). Am I reading this correctly?
Also noticed that there is a Lycoming/Vans Feb letter agreement on their terms, which I assume addresses this section.
OK, I'm an admitted accounting turnaround geek...
The whole situation is unfortunate, no doubt about it. But it's only as tainted as you allow it to be. And as life lessons go, this one is pretty cheap.Still sour that my dream of building a plane will forever be tainted by this fiasco.
No pocket protector - replaced by excel.You know there are no buffalo in kentucky, we have them in Montana and in my freezer..... (do you have a geeky pocket protector and green shade visor?)
Side note...Buffalo Trace is always a good choice.Reading the plan with a nice Buffalo Trace so...
They're not there yet...this is just the *proposed* plan, and even after being approved, they have to execute to the plan.Definitely a good trajectory. For all few but very vocal internet oracles that were "certain there was no way Vans would survive" and were equally certain "we were all fools to continue", perhaps learn from this experience.
same question here... any deadline set, cut-off date?Do we know when the plan will be approved or not?
Of course, which is why I indicated it as a trajectory. Plenty of reason to be optimistic IMO.They're not there yet...this is just the *proposed* plan, and even after being approved, they have to execute to the plan.
ah. Love Excel! Remember Lotus 1-2-3?No pocket protector - replaced by excel.
Do we know when the plan will be approved or not?
New legal document released today (attached). There will be a hearing 05/15/24.same question here... any deadline set, cut-off date?
visicalc, then lotus 1-2-3 version 1A...still use / commands in excel from Lotus circa 1985.ah. Love Excel! Remember Lotus 1-2-3?
/ commands are/were da bomb. Much faster than point and click.visicalc, then lotus 1-2-3 version 1A...still use / commands in excel from Lotus circa 1985.
26. Was hoping to build this early rather than wait for retirement or trying to do it with a wife and kids. On track to having it completed by end of 2024You must be young. What do Piper, American Airlines, Glasair,.... all have in common? Ans: They've all been through bankruptcy.
My understanding is that simply not agreeing to the plan may not result in getting 100%. The court probably has a low bar for approving the plan (i.e. is it “feasible” and complies with the law). I’m not your attorney and suggest you consult with one if you want to object and argue that the plan should provide for 100% payment to unsecured creditors.I’m not agreeing to it. I paid good money and to be told I’m only getting 55% of it back over three years. I will never send another cent their way. I’ll tell everyone that will listen of my experience. I’ll finish the aircraft but I’ll do it with second hand parts, own fabrication or aftermarket but they do not get any more of my coin. Am I pissed. You bet. No matter how long it takes they should pay us back 100% if they stay in business.
I understand that and I’m not giving money to a lawyer either. Nothing I say will make any difference if 40000 people have to vote on proceedings. I’ll make back the losses on NOT giving this company another cent. I’ll build my own motor core up using superior parts (200 hp) and save money over the overly expensive 180 hp new lycoming I deposited on. I’ll make the difference back but I’ll always hate this company for taking my money. As I said…I’ll own an RV. People will ask me about it. I’ll be sure to tell them all about it. I’m sure I’ll be able to say great things about the aircraft but I will definitely pass on my thoughts about dealing with this company. Thankfully I have everything I need except a finishing kit, engine and FWF kit. I’ll be able to cover the engine and make up my own fwf kit arguably considerably cheaper than vans and the finishing kit now $14500 parts can mostly be got off third parties or I’ll scout for guys not finishing their aircraft for the legs and canopy. I’ll make my own canopy frame (again better than vans can! As in not having to be bent all over the place to make it fit) and my own fibreglass canopy skirts. There are aftermarket engine mounts available. They are taking my hard earned money so I’ll return the favour.My understanding is that simply not agreeing to the plan may not result in getting 100%. The court probably has a low bar for approving the plan (i.e. is it “feasible” and complies with the law). I’m not your attorney and suggest you consult with one if you want to object and argue that the plan should provide for 100% payment to unsecured creditors.
While your feelings are understandable, it is apparent that you haven’t been through a bankruptcy before.I’m not agreeing to it. I paid good money and to be told I’m only getting 55% of it back over three years. I will never send another cent their way. I’ll tell everyone that will listen of my experience. I’ll finish the aircraft but I’ll do it with second hand parts, own fabrication or aftermarket but they do not get any more of my coin. Am I pissed. You bet. No matter how long it takes they should pay us back 100% if they stay in business.
While your feelings are understandable, it is apparent that you haven’t been through a bankruptcy before.
Not belittling your feelings at all. Unfortunately, this is how a bankruptcy works. It’s not fair, and it sucks but it is what it is. When my employer went through this, I lost FAR more, so I understand. What should happen and what will happen are very different. I guess my point is to not let your bitterness affect your life. Holding on to that bitterness will be apparent to others in your life and rob you of happy times…not The point. If they can survive they owe people money. Just because a court can say it’s ok to not give people back their money does not make it right. I know what losing my job is like and ended up working for pennies on the dollar with three kids to look after. Yet a business gets to take our hard earned coin and continue to operate! No matter how long it takes they should pay us back! On their recent write up I felt they were condescending on their treatment of those who “didn’t reorder” with them.
I have two claims with them….are both claims $3350 back each or just one lump of $3350 for priority….and what makes priority? Then 3 years to get 55% of the rest back….i wonder how they would like it if I bought something then just said…you know what….im only going to give you 55% of what I owe you…..
one should not belittle how I feel and no I have not been bankrupt before …..that was their doing….now they are taking our money to help them survive. Yes my feeling are understandable…
I agree. Vans bankruptcy will cost me about $25,000. Am I happy about that? Of course not. Do I hate the company because of it? Not at all. Leadership made some poor decisions and Covid and supply chain issues did the rest. Mistakes were made but there was no ill intent. The bankruptcy will allow Vans to survive and continue to support us for years to come. My $25,000 "contribution" will allow future builders to follow their dreams.I guess my point is to not let your bitterness affect your life.
ANY company can fail if they exhibit bad business practices. In this case, Van's had several small items add up to one large item that got them into a pinch. Throw in COVID and some modern day business practices (that don't make your business better) and you've got a Bankruptcy salad.Well, happy to hear it’s 55% if that does in fact happen. Still sour that my dream of building a plane will forever be tainted by this fiasco. I can’t look at my project and think, why did so many others have their dream come through all happy and rosy but us Covid builders have been put through the wringer. No way to ever get that back. If nothing else, I’ve definitely learned a hard life lesson at a very young age. Any business dealings I make going forward, Van’s bankruptcy will always be at the forefront guarding me. I always said to myself “vans will never go bankrupt, they’re too big to fail”… boy was I wrong. Granted they didn’t “fail” but they did file bankruptcy. Well back to building…
All I can say is I hope nothing really bad actually happens to you. If it does (as it has to me), you'll understand this bankruptcy is nothing. None of us can change what happened but we can change how we respond to it. Being able to build your own airplane is a gift that very few people will ever get to experience. Cherish that gift and be thankful that Mr VanGrunsven started Vans aircraft, kept it running for 50 years and saved the company from closing it's doors for good.So there is only 18% of people that did not re sign yet they have to steal 45% of our hard earned money. This whole wonderment and joy of building my own aircraft has been soured and sullied to the point it will always have a dark cloud over it. Never will I be able to be as excited as I once was and when ever I see vans in the future “recovered” and prospering I’ll always think of what they owe me. It’s just legalised theft. I’ll be sure to protest in any way possible until they make it right. If they survive and prosper they should pay back creditors just like I’d have to do if I owed a business money. I don’t care it’s bankruptcy….if they survive …..taking our money is not right
You can always declare personal bankruptcy if your personal situation warrants and similar things happen with the amounts you owe others. I’m grateful that there is a chance at recovery and that I’ll have a chance to see this through. Adversity isn’t fun and challenges aren’t easy. But these things also help define us in how we choose to respond. It’s a choice that we get to make. Best of luck and I hope you finish and love the result.So there is only 18% of people that did not re sign yet they have to steal 45% of our hard earned money. This whole wonderment and joy of building my own aircraft has been soured and sullied to the point it will always have a dark cloud over it. Never will I be able to be as excited as I once was and when ever I see vans in the future “recovered” and prospering I’ll always think of what they owe me. It’s just legalised theft. I’ll be sure to protest in any way possible until they make it right. If they survive and prosper they should pay back creditors just like I’d have to do if I owed a business money. I don’t care it’s bankruptcy….if they survive …..taking our money is not right
They aren’t taking 45% of those who did not re-sign. Many people with small claims are getting everything. You are also getting $3350 dollars immediately (priority claim on page 15) and 55% of the rest. This means your actual loss will be less than 45%. E.g. for a $10k claim you should get around 75% back.So there is only 18% of people that did not re sign yet they have to steal 45% of our hard earned money.
+1.All I can say is I hope nothing really bad actually happens to you. If it does (as it has to me), you'll understand this bankruptcy is nothing. None of us can change what happened but we can change how we respond to it. Being able to build your own airplane is a gift that very few people will ever get to experience. Cherish that gift and be thankful that Mr VanGrunsven started Vans aircraft, kept it running for 50 years and saved the company from closing it's doors for good.
Because that is how the bankruptcy process works; it’s not right and it’s not fair…All great comments but why if they survive can’t they pay out 100%? Why do we have to take a hit. If you guys are not worried about the coin feel free to give me some of your own money. No. Didn’t think so. As I said…this will always be a stain on what was supposed to be a once in a life time project. Let’s not marginalise the argument by constantly mentioning those with worse problems like I have never seen or been involved in…. This is about why we should have to take a loss when the company survives and ultimately prospers. How much is too much of a loss (again financially not medically) and please don’t comment when you don’t have a deposit taken.