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High Oil Pressure

BruceMe

Well Known Member
Ok,

So, this isn't simple, maybe if I explain the whole thing, somebody might have some ideas.

My RV-4 has an IO-320-C2B, 2100hrs since new (1994). It has the adjustable oil-pressure regulator. I'm running Phillips x-c (blue bottle) 20w50 synthetic exclusively. Ambient temperature today was 60 degrees.

This has happened about 5x now, on colder and hotter days. When I start, run-up and taxi, I get normal oil pressure readings 55-85psi. My first few take-offs are all normal 80-90psi. After my 3rd or 4th T&G (or 30 minutes of flying), on climb out my oil pressure spikes to 95-100psi. If I back off the throttle, it comes down.

today, I tried turning down the oil pressure (CC on the regulator), I tried several attempts, but still no decrease in pressure. It does seem to decrease mid-range pressures some (maybe 10psi).

SacSkyRanch says to check the regulator and clear the channels back to the pump, that's my next step. I also purchased a separate mechanical gauge at the auto store, but I haven't put it on yet.

I was wondering what folks here think? Any ideas?

-Bruce
RV-4 N254MM
 
I think that you should hook up the mechanical guage before you do anything.
Good luck,
Mahlon
'The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at your own risk.?
 
Ok,


This has happened about 5x now, on colder and hotter days. When I start, run-up and taxi, I get normal oil pressure readings 55-85psi. My first few take-offs are all normal 80-90psi. After my 3rd or 4th T&G (or 30 minutes of flying), on climb out my oil pressure spikes to 95-100psi.
Bruce,
You may just be seeing the effect of slightly different oil temperatures at takeoff. My 360 has run at 95 psi in cruise ever since it came from the factory - they adjusted it to that value according to the test log. Take off limit is 115 and I see close to that every first flight of the day.
As an aside, don't trust the absolute value of your pressure gauge. I bought an extra one and then compared both against a calibrated test instrument. Both gauges were off 5 psi, in opposite directions.
 
Bruce,
You may just be seeing the effect of slightly different oil temperatures at takeoff. My 360 has run at 95 psi in cruise ever since it came from the factory - they adjusted it to that value according to the test log. Take off limit is 115 and I see close to that every first flight of the day.
As an aside, don't trust the absolute value of your pressure gauge. I bought an extra one and then compared both against a calibrated test instrument. Both gauges were off 5 psi, in opposite directions.

Maybe 'the fix' is to set the engine monitor blinkies at 115, and just sit back and enjoy the ride.
 
Lycoming engines have the pleasant habit of sending unusual signals and sounds when something is not right or becoming not right.

This engine is due an overhaul in hours time and years of service. I would think about that if the mechanical gage does not satisfy what you're looking for in pressure. Nothing lasts forever and it has given good service for some 15 years.
 
Listen to Mahlon

Hook up the mechanical gage and make sure what the pressure is really doing.

You did not say what you have monitoring pressure now. On my GRT EIS if I have a bad ground on the sensor the pressure will go up to 99. When the ground improves it goes back down. I've fixed that and the pressure now tracks as you think it would, higher when the oil is cold, lower once warmed up.
 
The problem is not so much that the pressure readings are high but they they are high in illogical ways. Pressure should go down as the oil temp goes up. When things are inconsistent or not demonstrating normal behavior it can be a sign that something is wrong. Ignoring it may mean problems later - like in flight at night or over hostile terrain.

A bypass may be stuck shut, oil galleries clogged or just a bad sender or gage. Why not figure it out?

I just read the article rocketbob attached and I think there is a flaw in their logic. Higher oil pressure does not necessarily mean more oil flow. After all, the oil pump is a positive displacement pump and will only put out a fixed volumetric flow rate of oil that only varies with the rpm of the engine. Change the pressure all you want but oil flow in total will remain the same.

Here's how I believe the oil system works based on reading a lot of sources, looking at the drawings, 6 years experience operating things with pressure feed oil systems, an ME degree, a PE license and 27 years as an engineer. It does not mean I'm right, but it does mean I am not shooting from the hip!

There are a couple of alternative paths for oil. One is to the oil cooler, and this flow is regulated by the "Oil Cooler By-Pass Valve" (aka Vernatherm) operation. The second is the "Oil Relief Valve" which on some engines is adjustable. It lets some oil go back to the sump to limit the oil pressure. The third is the oil filter bypass which sends oil around the oil filter when there is a large pressure drop across it. This could be caused by the filter being clogged or maybe when the oil is very cold.

In the case of the Vernatherm and the Oil Filter Bypass the total flow through the engine stays the same. The relief valve sends oil back to the sump, so if it is open, less oil will go through the engine galleries and bearings and lifters (oh my!) etc.

Note that all of these "regulators" are between the oil pump and the first engine component being cooled/lubricated by the oil, and also note according to the Lycoming diagram the oil pressure reading is downstream of all of these devices but before the cooled/lubricated engine components. This means that downstream of the relief valve the only things that affect oil pressure is oil temperature (because it affects viscosity and frictional losses) and clogged oil passages. Temp up, pressure drops. Clogs up, pressure rises. In neither case is total oil flow through the engine affected. Anything that does not go to the sump through the relief valve will go through the engine.

723839926_Fu4cW-M.jpg


When the oil is cold the friction losses through the oil passages and oil cooler and filter and lines is high. The pump, since it is a positive displacement pump, will raise its discharge pressure high enough to put out the required volume of oil. If the pressure is higher than the relief valve setting some oil will go back to the sump rather than through the engine. Cold oil also leaves the Vernatherm open, bypassing the oil cooler and also reducing pressure since the cold oil is not being forced through the tight curving passages (and longer path) of the oil cooler.

As the oil warms up, the frictional losses drop and the pump does not have to raise the pressure as far to pump the constant volume of oil. As the pressure drops the relief valve will close. Once fully closed, further rises in oil temperature will reduce friction losses (aka back pressure) and the pressure out of the pump will drop further which should be seen on the oil pressure gage, at least when it is connected at the normal spot for most RV's - at the accessory case. Also as the oil temperature comes up the Vernatherm extends, closing off the bypass and forcing oil through the oil cooler. Now as temperature starts being regulated, oil viscosity is also being regulated which also helps stabilize oil pressure. Note though that none of these pressure changes affects the volume of oil going through the engine. The only two things that affect it are engine speed (therefore pump output volume) and the relief valve being open or shut.

Setting the relief valve higher will not cause oil pressure to be higher with warm oil like BruceMe is experiencing. Any relief valve set point higher than the total pressure loss through the engine at operating temperature will not cause more oil to flow through the engine because the relief valve will be shut. The only operating region where the higher relief valve setting helps is when the oil is very cold.
 
The problem is not so much that the pressure readings are high but they they are high in illogical ways...

Thanks for the feedback.

That part is really bugging me too. The pressure readings appear consistent... It's relatively lower at idle, higher at max rpms. But it's just not regulating.

I'll keep at it. I suspect a broken thermovern, pressure relief, clogged return feed maybe something's not plumbed right? Who knows... maybe the pressure sensor isn't temperature sensitive, when it gets hot, it reads high!!!

-Bruce
 
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OIL PRESS.

IF YOU HAVE A GRT EIS THERE HAS BEEN SOME PROBLEM WITH THE SENDING UNITS. CHECK WITH SANDY AT GRT. THEY HAVE A UPGRADED UNIT. DENNIS N16DD -6, IO-360
 
A bypass may be stuck shut, oil galleries clogged or just a bad sender or gage. Why not figure it out?

I just read the article rocketbob attached and I think there is a flaw in their logic. Higher oil pressure does not necessarily mean more oil flow. After all, the oil pump is a positive displacement pump and will only put out a fixed volumetric flow rate of oil that only varies with the rpm of the engine. Change the pressure all you want but oil flow in total will remain the same.

Incorrect. Pressure is a function of flow. Even though the pump only pumps a fixed amount of oil as a function of RPM, the pressure is taken after the relief valve and thus pressure directly correlates with oil flow thru the rest of the engine, beyond the relief valve.

Excess oil is dumped back down to the sump via a galley in the case from the relief valve ~ 5/16" ID in diameter, which is very unlikely to clog. On every Lycoming I've opened up I've never seen any clogging, but have in the crankshaft. Main bearing clearances will affect oil pressure.

Last winter I replaced a VDO oil pressure sender in my RV that was causing similar erratic readings. I'll bet that's where the issue is.

Cutting open a filter on each oil change will tell you everything you need to know about the condition of the engine, as far as mechanical wear goes.
 
Bob,

I'd like to make sure I understand your definition of "flow." Do you mean flow rate or resistance to flow?

If you mean flow means flow rate, then I disagree with what you say below about pressure. There are only three variables that affect pressure downstream of the relief valve: resistance to flow of oil through the engine, setpoint of the relief valve, and max flowrate through the relief valve.

Pump flow rate = relief valve flow rate + engine flow rate

I define engine flow rate as the flow rate downstream of the relief valve; the flow that goes to the bearings and galleries etc., and relief valve flow rate is the flow from the relief valve directly back to the sump.

If the relief valve is closed, flow rate through the engine will be constant, and will be equal to the output flow rate of the pump. System pressure will vary according to the resistance of flow in the system. More resistance ==> higher pressure.

If the relief valve is partially open, flowrate downstream of the relief valve will be pump flowrate minus relief valve flow rate. Pressure will be determined by the relief valve.

If the relief valve is fully open, flowrate through the engine will be pump flow rate minus relief valve flowrate, but pressure in the system will vary according to the resistance to flow downstream of the relief valve.

I agree with your last three paragraphs though. We may be in agreement on the rest but I need to know what your definition of "flow" is.

John
 
John, let me give you a simple analogy/question. You stated "Higher oil pressure does not necessarily mean more oil flow". If my household water pressure is set to 50psi, and the bathtub fills up in ten minutes, and if I turn the pressure down to 1psi at the pressure tank (I'm on a well system), how long will it take to fill the tub? If pressure is not related to flow, as you say, then it should take 10 minutes to fill the tub up at 1psi..? :)
 
It's apples and oranges. Your well system is not a positive displacement pump. If it were, you would always get the same volume flow from the pump regardless of downstream conditions.

Your well system is more like a centrifugal pump, which is not a positive displacement type pump. If you close a valve downstream of this type of pump, pressure at the discharge of the pump will increase, pressure downstream of the valve will decrease and flow will decrease.

With a positive displacement pump like the gear pump in our engines, if you throttle flow downstream the pressure at the outlet of the pump will go up, but flow rate will stay the same because it is a positive displacement pump!

Here are some links that may help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Cp4FQ-xNqo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO5g9ZwVmS0&NR=1&feature=fvwp

I don't normally use Wikipedia as a source, but in this case the information is accurate.

"Positive Displacement Pumps, unlike Centrifugal or Roto-dynamic Pumps, will produce the same flow at a given speed (RPM) no matter the discharge pressure. Positive Displacement Pumps are "constant flow machines"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pump

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear_pump

Please read up on gear pumps and positive displacement pumps. You logic would be correct if the oil pump in our engines were centrifugal type. But they are not.
 
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You missed the point, and you didn't answer my question. Explain to me how turning down the pressure on the pressure tank relief valve wouldn't change the flow of water in the plumbing in my house. The oil system in any engine is absolutely no different in principle. And explain to me why the pump type matters beyond the pressure relief valve.
 
Bob,
not wanting to get into a contest of who is correct....the reason your tub does not fill as fast at 1 psi as at 50 psi of pressure is that you regulate the pressure at the nozzle with a variable orifice the knob if you will. In an aircraft system the orifices are all fixed....or should be. Therefore flow rate changes very little with pressure. One would think that more pressure means more flow...but in a fixed system this is just not true. A positive displacement pump such as an oil pump has no slippage. A variable displacement ....ie vane pump does and slippage can affect flow rates.
Dave (Globe Swift) and pressure measuring engineer for too many years to count.
 
ok. Lets say I leave the faucet half open, and I open the kitchen faucet half way as well. Therefore both are in a constant state of leakage. Then I go down in the crawl space and start playing around with the pressure relief valve. You're telling me that it will have no effect on the flow out of both faucets...??
 
Bob,
Believe it....the only way to change flow in a fixed orifice system is to either change media....or change the length of the plumbing ...this will have a significant impact due to the resistance to flow. Another thing that will affect flow is the number and sharpness of bends. This acts like a resistor due to turblance at the intersection. I know that is not logical but thats the physics of a system. What will change as you change pressure is the distance the fluid will squirt out of the end of the pipe.
Dave
 
What will change as you change pressure is the distance the fluid will squirt out of the end of the pipe.
Dave

Definitely! I have over 95 psi of water pressure at my house. My sprinklers do cover a good distance.
 
Fixed Orifice Flow

Bob,
Believe it....the only way to change flow in a fixed orifice system is to either change media....or change the length of the plumbing ... What will change as you change pressure is the distance the fluid will squirt out of the end of the pipe.
Dave

This thread is drifting a bit off course but:

Fixed orifice flow rate is a function of upstream pressure (and down stream pressure for non-cavitating flow). If Bob opens his bathtub faucet half-way, then reduces the supply pressure at the faucet (I don't care how...reducing the pressure regulator setting, opening another faucet in the house, flushing a toilet, etc), he will reduce the volumetric flow rate through the bathtub faucet.

Skylor (ME with lots of fluid system experience)
 
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ok. Lets say I leave the faucet half open, and I open the kitchen faucet half way as well. Therefore both are in a constant state of leakage. Then I go down in the crawl space and start playing around with the pressure relief valve. You're telling me that it will have no effect on the flow out of both faucets...??

Apples to oranges - you don't have a positive-displacement water source. The oil system in the aircraft does. It doesn't matter what the downstream pressure is, at a given RPM the oil pump will always pump out the same volume of oil, whether the output pressure is 20 or 200 psi.

As long as the SOURCE of the fluid allows you to change the volume by adjusting the back pressure (vane pump, centrifugal pump, or municipal water suppy), then yes the volume will change. If you have a pump that is positive displacement, the pressure doesn't matter - it's always going to pump the same volume. At higher pressures it just has to work harder to do it.

The point of the oil regulator valve is to maintain XX psi (call it 80 for the sake of argument) and all the oil is directed to the oil galleries until that pressure is achieved - after which time just enough is directed to the oil galleries to maintain that pressure, and the rest is dumped back into the crankcase. The pump puts out quite a bit more oil than is needed, and the regulator makes sure you get everything you need from the pump and discards the rest.

I play with high pressure air compressors (6,000 psi) for a side business, and the oil system on those runs at 850 psi but is designed exactly the same.
 
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OK lets try this....this is a complicated subject and much misunderstood....and my attempt to make it simple just didn't cut it....:mad:
A good visual picture and interactive example of Bernoulli's Principal (yes the same guy that says we can fly) can be viewed at http://home.earthlink.net/~mmc1919/venturi.html
This describes fluid flow and pressure in a system .....note what happens to flow.:)
Dave
 
Since you guys want to go off in the weeds, and not provide an answer to my question, let me ask you another one.

I fly a Saratoga which has a combination manifold pressure/fuel flow gauge. I overhauled the engine in this airplane, and maintain it, so I am intimately familiar with its workings.

The fuel flow gauge is connected to the flow divider at the top of the engine. The gauge is nothing more than pressure gauge with markings in gallons per hour.

How is it then, that a pressure gauge can be used to indicate volummetric flow?

As the pressure goes up and down on the metered fuel side, more or less fuel is being injected to the intake ports.

There's no need to understand Bernoulli, fluid dynamics, vane-type pumps, positive-displacement pumps, yada yada yada.

The plumbing in my house works the same, and so does the oil system an engine.

Lets compare this to basic Ohms law. Fluid pressure is analgous to voltage. Fluid flow is analagous to current. V=I*R. I=V/R. So as voltage (pressure (V)) decreases, and R stays constant, I (current(flow)) will become less.
 
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Setting the relief valve higher will not cause oil pressure to be higher with warm oil like BruceMe is experiencing. Any relief valve set point higher than the total pressure loss through the engine at operating temperature will not cause more oil to flow through the engine because the relief valve will be shut. The only operating region where the higher relief valve setting helps is when the oil is very cold.

Bubblehead's statement assumes that the oil pressure relief valve is fully closed when the engine oil is at normal operating temperature, but if the pressure relief valve actually behaves as a regulator then this statement is not true. If the relief valve is typically partially open when the engine oil is at normal operating temperature, then increasing its setting will increase the engine oil pressure at normal operating temperatures by bypassing less oil back to the sump. In this case, the Bill Marvel (a two time RV builder, by the way) article that Bob linked in his earlier post has some validity.

Skylor
 
Skylor - I agree, although I think I did cover the partially open relif valve case. In the operating condition where the relief valve is partially open, changing the relief valve setpoint will change the amount of oil going to the sump, and the remainder will go to the engine.

Bob - I answered your question with a technical argument and references. You answered with an insult. Despite that I will try one more time.

Your bathtub system has nothing to do with the oil system in your airplane. Your fuel flow system has nothing to do with it. They are inherently different than the oil system.

Either do your homework and come back with a logical, technical argument based on a positive displacement pump or drop it.

Oh, on your electrical analogy, we can do it that way, but the electrical equivalent is a constant current source instead of a constant voltage source like a battery. The constant current source will push 7 amps through the system (like the oil pump pushes 7 gpm through the oil system) regardless of the resistance in the system. If the circuit is one simple loop with source and resistor (equivalent to the relief valve being closed) then all 7 amps go throught the resistor (engine). If you add a second loop with a resistor (relief valve open), some current will go through that loop and the rest of the 7 amps will go through the first loop (engine). The relative resistances will determine the balance of current in each loop but the total current will still be 7 amps (or 7 gpm). The constant current source will raise voltage as high as it must to achieve 7 amps of current flow, just like the positive displacement pump will raise pressure as high as it must to achieve 7 gpm.

Constant current source = positive displacement pump system
Constant voltage source = storage battery = your home water system

Here's a diagram. I hope it helps.

731523559_rRbjr-M.jpg
 
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Bob - I answered your question with a technical argument and references. You answered with an insult. Despite that I will try one more time.

Your bathtub system has nothing to do with the oil system in your airplane. Your fuel flow system has nothing to do with it. They are inherently different than the oil system.

Either do your homework and come back with a logical, technical argument based on a positive displacement pump or drop it.

First off I never insulted you. I don't need to insult anyone to make a point.

Secondly, explain how the plumbing analogies are "inherently different". In my house, I have a pump, relief valve, and plumbing. In the engine oil system, there is also a pump, a relief valve, and plumbing (galleys). How's that "inherently different"? Assuming all faucets have a fixed opening for comparison purposes.

Now please answer this question directly, for argument's sake: how is it that a pressure gauge is used on the Saratoga I fly can tell me what the fuel flow is?

Regarding part 2 of your drawing, what happens when R1 is a low value and R2 is a high value? In a current divider circuit the current is not constant at R1 and R2 if they are of different values. The total current stays constant, but at R1 and R2 the current is split proportionally. So if R2 has a high value of resistance, R1 is low, little current will flow thru R2. Therefore I can measure the voltage across R2 and calculate current at R2. And since voltage equates to pressure, and R2 is analagous to the total resistance after the relief valve in a Lyc., the current there is analagous the flow of oil. Nobody cares about the total current since we already know the pump will pump X gpm thru it. Hence. Voltage here can be used to measure current. Hence. Pressure can be used to determine flow.

Now if a third party can please validate the above paragraph, and prove it is incorrect, I will gladly buy John a case of beer.

And I'll add one more point. If R1 (the relief valve) varies in resistance, which it certainly does, the current at R2 (the engine) will vary proportionally to the current at R1. Therefore the flow of oil thru the engine will vary with the position of the relief valve. The total current of the whole circuit will not vary, but again, nobody cares how many GPM the oil pump is flowing, which includes what's dumped into the sump at the relief valve bypass. All we care about is the oil flowing thru the engine (R2) and measuring the voltage across R2 (pressure) will give us a direct indication of the flow of oil thru the engine, relative to the total flow at X rpm by the oil pump.
 
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Q "Secondly, explain how the plumbing analogies are "inherently different". In my house, I have a pump, relief valve, and plumbing. In the engine oil system, there is also a pump, a relief valve, and plumbing (galleys). How's that "inherently different"? "

A Because the house system is a constant pressure system and the oil pump is a constant flow system.

Q "Now please answer this question directly, for argument's sake: how is it that a pressure gauge is used on the Saratoga I fly can tell me what the fuel flow is?"

A Provide a diagram of the fuel system and I will answer the question.

Q "Regarding part 2 of your drawing, what happens when R1 is a low value and R2 is a high value? In a current divider circuit the current is not constant at R1 and R2 if they are of different values. The total current stays constant, but at R1 and R2 the current is split proportionally. So if R2 has a high value of resistance, R1 is low, little current will flow thru R2. Therefore I can measure the voltage across R2 and calculate current at R2. And since voltage equates to pressure, and R2 is analagous to the total resistance after the relief valve in a Lyc., the current there is analagous the flow of oil. Nobody cares about the total current since we already know the pump will pump X gpm thru it. Hence. Voltage here can be used to measure current. Hence. Pressure can be used to determine flow."

A. You say that pressure (voltage) can be used to measure flow (current), however the voltage drop across R1 and R2 is the same, yet the current flow is different. The only way you would know current is if you use resistance to calculate it, and in our case that is a moving target because sometimes the relief valve is open all the way and won't open any farther, sometimes it is partially open within a whole range of "resistance" values, and soemtimes it is completely closed. Without knowing the state of the relief valve you will not know the current through the engine.

Actually in our case voltage cannot be used to measure current because the resistance varies.
 
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Now please answer this question directly, for argument's sake: how is it that a pressure gauge is used on the Saratoga I fly can tell me what the fuel flow is?

Ok, it's not telling you the flow. It's telling you the fuel pressure.
And hopefully at a certain manifold pressure the Piper engineers have marked the gauge to give you a somewhat accurate indication of what your fuel flow is.

I've have been following this thread off and on and it's been interesting. I haven't really studied all the posts but I have to say I agree with everything Bubblehead has said.

It's human nature that when you can't get someone else to see it "your way" it makes you a little mad. I know I'm that way. And sometimes I've gotton mad only to find out later that I was the one that was wrong all along.

The trick is to stay calm, think it through and have fun learning.

Mark
 
A Because the house system is a constant pressure system and the oil pump is a constant flow system.

Not beyond the pressure relief valve. Beyond the relief valve, both become constant-pressure systems. Again, the type of pump does not matter because in one system, the relief is thru the pump (water) and in the other (oil) the relief is via the relief passage back to the sump at the oil pressure regulator.

Q "Now please answer this question directly, for argument's sake: how is it that a pressure gauge is used on the Saratoga I fly can tell me what the fuel flow is?"

A Provide a diagram of the fuel system and I will answer the question.

Mechanical pump -> servo -> metered fuel line -> flow divider -> injector lines. Fuel flow gauge is plumbed to the "gauge" port on the flow divider. There is no outlet on the fuel flow gauge in the panel. It is therefore measuring nothing more than the metered fuel pressure at the divider and is marked in GPH.

A. You say that pressure (voltage) can be used to measure flow (current), however the voltage drop across R1 and R2 is the same, yet the current flow is different. The only way you would know current is if you use resistance to calculate it, and in our case that is a moving target because sometimes the relief valve is open all the way and won't open any farther, sometimes it is partially open within a whole range of "resistance" values, and soemtimes it is completely closed. Without knowing the state of the relief valve you will not know the current through the engine.

Doesn't matter what the resistance of R1 is. I can measure the voltage drop across R2, to determine the current at R2. There is an assumption that it is proportional to R1. And if R1 is doing its job, the range of values for R2 will fall into an acceptable range (your oil pressure low and high limits.) All we care about is R2 (the engine), which what your pressure gauge is connected to.

No need to come up with additional diagrams, I do not wish to debate further. Part 2 of your drawing illustrates the analogy nicely, there is no need to go further. Again if a third party will point out any flaw of my analysis of your second drawing, I'd be glad to concede if I made any errors.
 
Ok, it's not telling you the flow. It's telling you the fuel pressure.
And hopefully at a certain manifold pressure the Piper engineers have marked the gauge to give you a somewhat accurate indication of what your fuel flow is.
Mark

This is the gauge: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/manpress_fflowgauge.php

It states clearly in the description, "No transducer required." There are only two connections on the back of this gauge, one for manifold pressure, one to the flow divider. So yes it is reading pressure. Therefore flow can be deduced from pressure, and that's the only thing I'm arguing.
 
Therefore flow can be deduced from pressure, and that's the only thing I'm arguing.


ONLY if the resistance to that flow is known, and fixed. In the case of the fuel system, this is true - the flow is through carefully manufactured orifices that do not change size and will always represent a predictable resistance to flow. I take away those orifices and plug the line, there is zero flow but the pressure remains.
 
ONLY if the resistance to that flow is known, and fixed. In the case of the fuel system, this is true - the flow is through carefully manufactured orifices that do not change size and will always represent a predictable resistance to flow. I take away those orifices and plug the line, there is zero flow but the pressure remains.

You're catching on. :) Someone at Lycoming had to have determined the resistance of the oil system in order to determine the size and flow requirements of the relief valve and bypass.
 
This is the gauge: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/manpress_fflowgauge.php

It states clearly in the description, "No transducer required." There are only two connections on the back of this gauge, one for manifold pressure, one to the flow divider. So yes it is reading pressure. Therefore flow can be deduced from pressure, and that's the only thing I'm arguing.

Wow, I just re-learned something! I had forgotten that these fuel flow gauges had a manifold pressure connection. Thats makes sense. So they are really just differential pressure gauges, that measure the difference in pressure at the flow divider and intake manifold. Since the injectors are FIXED orifices fuel flow can be shown with calibrated markings.

If you get a plugged injector all bets are off though:)

Mark
 
Wow, I just re-learned something! I had forgotten that these fuel flow gauges had a manifold pressure connection. Thats makes sense. So they are really just differential pressure gauges, that measure the difference in pressure at the flow divider and intake manifold. Since the injectors are FIXED orifices fuel flow can be shown with calibrated markings.

If you get a plugged injector all bets are off though:)

Mark

Look at the link again...it is a combination manifold pressure / fuel flow gage.
The MP port is for the MP portion of the gage.

The flow portion reads based on the known amount of GPH flow that will occure as a result of the injector orifice size on a given # of injector nozzles with a given pressure applied like Bob described.
 
Look at the link again...it is a combination manifold pressure / fuel flow gage.
The MP port is for the MP portion of the gage.

The flow portion reads based on the known amount of GPH flow that will occure as a result of the injector orifice size on a given # of injector nozzles with a given pressure applied like Bob described.

Oh, Ok. I never even looked at the link.
But by not taking into consideration the manifold pressure this would make the fuel flow indication less accurate... correct?

The manifold pressure would be a "negative back pressure" or suction but if it changes then so does the fuel flow if the fuel pressure is constant.

Are we sure the manifold pressure is not connected inside the gauge to the fuel pressure side? This would make it a true differential pressure gauge, and more accurate in my view.

Mark
 
ONLY if the resistance to that flow is known, and fixed. In the case of the fuel system, this is true - the flow is through carefully manufactured orifices that do not change size and will always represent a predictable resistance to flow. I take away those orifices and plug the line, there is zero flow but the pressure remains.

Right on, Airguy man!

With the orifice the pressure drop will be inversely proportional to flow so pressure downstream of the orifice will be a measure of flow. However, if that orifice has a variable resistance, or if another branch line upstream of it opens or shuts off, then all bets are off.

In this case the fuel flow gage is assuming a fuel pressure upstream of the orifice. As long as that pressure is relatively constant pressure everything will be fine.

1. The pressure drop across an orifice is higher with higher flow, but is also higher at the same flow if the fluid gets more viscous.

2. The pressure downstream of the orifice is lower with higher flow, but it is also lower with higher viscosity fluid at the same flow!

Fuel does not change viscosity much with temperature, but oil sure does. That's why as our engines wam up oil pressure drops. If you want to put an orifice in an oil line and measure the pressure downstream to determine flow you need to know the resistance of the fluid or have a relatively constant viscosity fluid.
 
Right on, Airguy man!

1. The pressure drop across an orifice is higher with higher flow, but is also higher at the same flow if the fluid gets more viscous.

2. The pressure downstream of the orifice is lower with higher flow, but it is also lower with higher viscosity fluid at the same flow!

This instrument measures absolute fuel pressure at the divider. In order to measure pressure drop across an orfice, it would take two lines. One from the metered side of the servo and the other from the unmetered side. Certainly one could derive flow that way if the gauge worked that way. But it doesn't. It only measures absolute metered fuel pressure.
 
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Holy Smokes!
This is why building airplanes is so fun!
Who would have ever guessed that a question could lead to so many learning opportunities. It is a written version of hangar flying.

When you guys finish with this topic, let's move on to man-made global warming and see where we can take it.

Keep going...I am still trying to understand each side of the debate. (And learning much along the way...)
 
Maybe this will help?

Lets see if I can help RocketBob by describing the constant flow system a different way.

Assume the pressure relief valve is closed. All the oil is going through the various passages through the engine and draining into the sump. Think of that system of 'leaks' as an orifice.

Now, there IS a relationship between flow-rate and pressure, as RocketBob insists, but it works like this:
The flow output of the pump is constant. If you increase the oil temperature, the flow resistance through the engine drops (less viscocity). But, the pump can sense that it is easier to push the oil through, so for the same flow rate, the pump outlet pressure drops (and the pressure at the pressure gage too) but the flow rate is the same.

If you cool the oil, the flow resistance increases, and the constant displacement pump has to work harder to push the same amount of oil through. It does it by increasing the pump outlet pressure by just the right amount to compensate for the increased flow resistance.

If you keep the oil temperature constant, but you suddenly open up a clearance in the oil passages of the engine (lets say you were to open up a main bearing clearance real big by magic) then, again, the flow resistance to push the oil through the engine would go down. The outlet pressure of the constant-flow pump would go down by just the right amount so that the reduced pressure matched the reduced flow resistance at the same flow rate.

If you suddenly could plug up most of the oil passages in the engine, the flow resistance would increase dramatically. The pump outlet pressure would also increase dramatically, but the flow rate would stay the same - up to the point where the pressure got so high that the relief valve opened. Then, the oil flow through the engine would decrease by the amount that flowed through the relief valve. The sum of the two would still equal the constant-flow output.

Make sense?
 
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You're catching on. :) Someone at Lycoming had to have determined the resistance of the oil system in order to determine the size and flow requirements of the relief valve and bypass.

No - not necessarily. All that is needed for the relief valve is what pressure they wanted supplied to the bearing surfaces by the oil in the galleries. All that is needed for the bypass plumbing is the ability to carry full-flow of the oil pump in the case of the relief valve being fully open.
 
No - not necessarily. All that is needed for the relief valve is what pressure they wanted supplied to the bearing surfaces by the oil in the galleries. All that is needed for the bypass plumbing is the ability to carry full-flow of the oil pump in the case of the relief valve being fully open.

Ahh, but they still need to know the the oil flow requirements to properly size the oil pump to provide the required oil flow with adequate reserves to allow for production tolerances and allowable engine component wear, as well as providing proper oil flow throughout the acceptable oil viscosity ranges. Furthermore, the sizing of the pump and the sizing of the relief valve go hand in hand because the relief has to be able to control the oil pressure throughout all operating conditions (i.e. viscosity variation) for the flow rate that the oil pump is designed to deliver.

Back to the original question about suddenly high oil pressure (remember that?): One potential cause of high oil pressure could be a spun main bearing. In that case, the oil delivery drilling in the crankcase bearing journal can get blocked by the spun bearing, hence the "engine" oil flow will drop significantly. This drop in flow could potentially overcome the relief valve capability and result in higher than normal oil pressure.

Skylor
 
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This instrument measures absolute fuel pressure at the divider. In order to measure pressure drop across an orfice, it would take two lines. One from the metered side of the servo and the other from the unmetered side. Certainly one could derive flow that way if the gauge worked that way. But it doesn't. It only measures absolute metered fuel pressure.

I agree that the instrument only measures pressure downstream of the orifice. However, pressure alone is not enough to determine flow through an orifice, you need to either know OR BE ABLE TO ASSUME the upstream pressure. In this case the upstream pressure is relatively constant and the pressure downstream will be inversely proportional to the flow. High pressure during low flow and low pressure when flow is high.

For example, if the fuel pump failed, pressure would be zero but so would flow!

Here's a link that gives a great explanation, both logical and mathematical, of incompressible fluid flow through an orifice. Note that the equations are derived from Bernoulli's equation which includes terms for the pressure on each side of the orifice.

http://www.efunda.com/formulae/fluids/calc_orifice_flowmeter.cfm

In my fuel injected engine fuel pressure does not vary very much except for boost pump on/off. I assume the same is true for the Saratoga.

scsmith, skylor, airguy - I agree in all cases, however before I tore an engine down to look for a spun bearing I'd make sure all the other things are correct, especially the pressure sender. Verifying the pressure readings with a mechanical gage would be a great step.
 
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I agree that the instrument only measures pressure downstream of the orifice. However, pressure alone is not enough to determine flow through an orifice, you need to either know OR BE ABLE TO ASSUME the upstream pressure. In this case the upstream pressure is relatively constant and the pressure downstream will be inversely proportional to the flow. High pressure during low flow and low pressure when flow is high.


In my fuel injected engine fuel pressure does not vary very much except for boost pump on/off. I assume the same is true for the Saratoga.

This really depends where you measure the fuel pressure. In the case of the Saratoga, the pressure is measured at the flow divider, which is actually UPSTREAM of the orifices (the injector nozzles). So the gauge is measuring the inlet pressure to the fuel injector nozzles and the pressure (i.e. flow reading) will vary with engine power.

Most RV's measure the fuel pressure between the fuel pump and the FI servo. This is where the fuel pressure will be more or less constant. In the case of the fuel system, the servo is the control valve for the fuel, thus the pressure downstream of the servo varies as the engine air flow varies.

One of the most common types of fluid flow control systems consists of a throttling valve located upstream of a fluid control element (orifice or venturi) and the flow rate is measured by the inlet pressure to the control element and controlled by the valve (which sets the desired inlet pressure to the control orifice). This is exactly how the mechanical fuel injection systems work on our engines.

scsmith, skylor, airguy - I agree in all cases, however before I tore an engine down to look for a spun bearing I'd make sure all the other things are correct, especially the pressure sender. Verifying the pressure readings with a mechanical gage would be a great step.

I absolutely agree with this assessment. Validate the measurement before taking drastic trouble shooting actions!

Skylor
 
Skylor - thanks for the clarification. That's how Bob described it but when we all started talking about orifices my mind was thinking of an orifice for measuring flow.

So in the case of the Saratoga since it's down stream of the throttling device a higher pressure means more of the pressure is going past the throttling device which does mean more flow.

The problem with this whole discussion is it is really important to define where you are measuring pressure in addition to pump type etc. In the Saratoga fuel system pressure goes up because a valve is opened further allowing more flow. Or, if you prefer, the valve is opened allowing more flow and since there is more flow there is more frictional losses which cause higher pressure. I think it is all of the same thing it just depends on how you like to think of it.

In our Lyc oil systems, ignoring spun bearings for a minute, there is no throttling valve, only a relief valve that will dump off some oil flow to the sump to prevent over pressurization of the system.

I stand by my earlier statements that there are three conditions that can occur in our engines oil system.

1. relief valve shut - pressure as we measure it and where we measure it only depends on frictional losses down stream caused by the full output of the pump going through the passages.

2. relief valve open and regulating pressure - the flow will be split between the engine and the relief valve according to the inverse of the two branches resistances. Just like a parallel electrical circuit. The flow through the engine will be the flow from the pump minus the flow through the relief valve to the sump. If the set point of the relief valve is raised in this instance more oil will flow through the engine. Oil pressure will be equal to the relief valve set point.

3. Relief valve fully open - flow will be split like in case 2 but oil pressure can be higher than the set point of the relief valve in order to accommodate the total flow from the pump.

So where do our systems normally operate? I believe once the engine is warm they operate with the relief valve either partially open and regulating pressure, or fully closed, in which case oil viscosity (in effect, temperature) will be the independent variable driving the oil pressure, which is the dependent variable.

I believe this is so because at normal oil temperatures my oil pressure does not vary much from 70 psi even with 10 degree or so fluctuations of temperature. I think the relief valve is regulating pressure. If I do a high performance climb especially in hot weather the oil temp goes up over 220 and at some point the oil pressure drops to around 62. I think at this point the relief valve is fully closed and the lower viscosity of the oil means it is circulating easier and frictional losses are less and therefore the pressure required to move the full output of the pump is less.

I even think the oil cooler and Vernatherm help control oil pressure. I'll leave it to the audience to figure out how.
 
Wow, about 2/3rds of this discussion went over my head. Simple question:

Since their are TWO valves in the oil system that affect pressure, is it possible that the system IS a combination of the two. I haven't heard once on page two anyone discussing the original problem.

First off, since the oil pressure regulator allows flow (not just pressure) to bypass the engine galleries, doesn't that to a great extent remove the effect of the constant displacement pump, and in fact make the oil system a constant pressure system? That is how I always understood it to work!

Secondly, to the problem with the original engine. Since when the engine warms up, there is now a second valve opening (the vernatherm) and the pressure is INCREASING, shouldn't we be looking for a problem somewhere in the oil cooling side or vernatherm?

And lastly, the Bendix FI/Saratoga fuel system is truely a different animal all together, since it's pump is NOT constant displacement, the whole system works on having a given pressure at the inlet, with variable flow after the metering unit.
 
only one valve changes the oil pressure at the sender

OSXUSER - the oil cooling circuit is completely upstream of the pressure regulating valve and bypass, and all the cooling circuit oil comes together before going to the relief valve. So the Vernatherm can not affect the engine oil pressure reading. The outlet pressure at the oil pump will increase to deliver the constant flow when the vernatherm closes and forces oil through the cooler, but this process will not affect the pressure regulation at the relief valve.

Only when the relief valve is open will the system act like a 'constant pressure' system as far as the engine side goes. When the relief valve is closed, it is a constant-flow system.

I hope we hear soon the results of a mechanical gage reading.
 
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