Laser cut parts still being shipped?

[BigBadBob]

There is a post on the Facebook RV-14 page stating that a builder recently received j-channel that had laser-cut holes and was then covered with blue plastic film.

Van's responded: "Van’s Aircraft is aware of this report. The fact that a laser-cut part remained in our inventory, despite our attempts to clear all laser-cut parts from our warehouses, necessitates prioritizing this issue and giving it the highest level of attention. Our team is conducting an exhaustive inventory inspection to ensure no laser-cut parts remain in our inventory. Additionally, we are investigating how the laser-cut part ended up in a customer shipment. As a precautionary measure we have halted all packing and shipping until our inspection has been completed. We will provide daily updates until the completion of our inspection."

 

[Snowflake]

Given the scope of this issue, it's not unexpected that there would be a part missed here or there. Thankfully, there are other places in the process where checks and balances happen (the builder) and these things can be captured. I would be *very* surprised if it was a case of someone trying to use up the parts and hoping nobody would notice.

 

[BigBadBob]

Given the scope of this issue, it's not unexpected that there would be a part missed here or there. Thankfully, there are other places in the process where checks and balances happen (the builder) and these things can be captured. I would be *very* surprised if it was a case of someone trying to use up the parts and hoping nobody would notice.

I agree, but it's probably worth folks knowing that "blue plastic means you're OK" may not be a foolproof strategy. I don't see how a builder could miss those holes though, from the photographs.

Just another subplot in the saga...

 

[TASEsq]

I recently got a canopy handle which was not punched in my finish kit. It looked to be laser cut? Or perhaps they water cut these?

 

[ATC_RV8OR]

I’m not buying the laser cut then wrapped in blue plastic. If it had blue plastic and was laser cut then the plastic would be burned and extremely noticeable. I can not actually believe that Vans would send out a part for laser cut and then carefully apply blue plastic to a part. That’s a lot of extra work, did they also cut all the tiny holes in the plastic for the rivet lines? Make it perfect to sell so nobody would no? This sounds like a hoax

 

[stigaro]

These are the parts under question copied from the Facebook page. If legit, then Van's would have laser-cut the holes, then wrapped the entire sheet in blue film, then punched out the part and bent it. I'm not sure in the process when sheets get wrapped in film, but Greg has mentioned before that it is done in-house. The blue film does not appear to have cut through, so the film had to be applied after the holes were cut, but before the parts were cut out of the sheet or bent.

 

[rvbuilder2002]

I recently got a canopy handle which was not punched in my finish kit. It looked to be laser cut? Or perhaps they water cut these?

It was cut by water jet.
Common on some thick parts where it is important for the part to remain very flat.
If it was laser cut there would be burn marks.

 

[Brantel]

I can tell you all that this report is being taken very seriously by the mother ship.

 

[PaulvS]

There is a post on the Facebook RV-14 page stating that a builder recently received j-channel that had laser-cut holes and was then covered with blue plastic film.

Van's responded: "Van’s Aircraft is aware of this report. The fact that a laser-cut part remained in our inventory, despite our attempts to clear all laser-cut parts from our warehouses, necessitates prioritizing this issue and giving it the highest level of attention. Our team is conducting an exhaustive inventory inspection to ensure no laser-cut parts remain in our inventory. Additionally, we are investigating how the laser-cut part ended up in a customer shipment. As a precautionary measure we have halted all packing and shipping until our inspection has been completed. We will provide daily updates until the completion of our inspection."

Did Van's actually say that, or did someone else quote them and say that they said it? If the latter I'd be highly suspicious of it being an internet hoax.

 

[lipper03]

Yes it’s was Van’s account on Facebook, I’m a member of that group.

 

[mstrauss]

Déjà vu all over again?​

 

[Dr_Dave_MT]

These are the parts under question. If legit, then Van's would have laser-cut the holes, then wrapped the entire sheet in blue film, then punched out the part and bent it. I'm not sure in the process when sheets get wrapped in film, but Greg has mentioned before that it is done in-house. The blue film does not appear to have cut through, so the film had to be applied after the holes were cut, but before the parts were cut out of the sheet or bent.

Oh ya. That is laser cut (using the wrong attack program, that is, LCP is not all that bad) that piece shows the tell tale cut like a "Sore Mouthed Beaver" as my late father-in-law would say.

 

[BigBadBob]

FWIW, I've been a pretty continuous critic of Van's throughout this LCP/Bankruptcy/Price soap opera, but in this case I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt because the situation is just too screwy otherwise.

It is, of course, something to be aware of and Van's should follow through with the "daily updates" (which I haven't seen publicly posted).

I know, I know: it isn't paranoia if they are really out to get you...

 

[RV7A Flyer]

Lack of good inventory control rears its ugly head yet again...

 

[greghughespdx]

Did Van's actually say that, or did someone else quote them and say that they said it? If the latter I'd be highly suspicious of it being an internet hoax.

Yes, it's true guys - that comment was posted on the RV-14 group via the Van's Aircraft Facebook account.

What we learned is that the part in question was laser-cut by a third-party manufacturing vendor in 2022 and delivered to Van's as a flat (unbent) part (along with a small number of others). Blue vinyl was later applied by Van's staff prior to running it through the CNC bending process to prevent damage to the parts when bending. This practice was limited to just a few parts. This's why the holes are in the metal only, and not the vinyl. Odd, and thankfully an exceptionally rare occurrence.

As soon as this issue was reported to us, we stopped all work in the warehouse and initiated a thorough review of our entire inventory to look for any other possible laser-cut parts on the shelf. We've completed this process and found a very limited scope/number of similar parts. We have also identified all customers who could have received one of these parts and we will be reaching out directly to them to proactively ensure that they receive CNC-punched parts.

 

[ATC_RV8OR]

I was hoping this was an internet hoax. Guess not. So you’re telling me that I ordered replacements for LCP and those replacements may have gotten blue vinyl covered and also be LCP? Sweet Mary mother when does it end? Tired of sorting this kit umpteen million times. I specifically sorted out the blue vinyl as good to go and made the “discounted” (discounted is used loosely) LCP replacement order. This is becoming the fart that should not be trusted.

Now what? #soupsandwich.

 

[BigBadBob]

If I were Van's and a customer reported they got a blue-vinyl-wrapped laser cut part (even years from now) , I'd send them a replacement no questions asked. Its just like any other defective part at this stage, isn't it?

But of course, I'm not Van's....

 

[airguy]

If I were Van's and a customer reported they got a blue-vinyl-wrapped laser cut part (even years from now) , I'd send them a replacement no questions asked. Its just like any other defective part at this stage, isn't it?

But of course, I'm not Van's....

Did someone say they didn't? I guess I missed that part...

 

[FlyHigh]

UPS Tracking says that ALL of my LCP replacements are to arrive today !! The same day that I received Greg's (Vans) e-mail stating that a blue wrapped replacement part is actually another LCP, and another replacement will be sent ASAP.
THANK You Stigaro for bringing this to Van's and our attention through this GREAT forum, and, THANK YOU Greg Hughes for your honesty and attention in this matter.

 

[stigaro]

UPS Tracking says that ALL of my LCP replacements are to arrive today !! The same day that I received Greg's (Vans) e-mail stating that a blue wrapped replacement part is actually another LCP, and another replacement will be sent ASAP.
THANK You Stigaro for bringing this to Van's and our attention through this GREAT forum, and, THANK YOU Greg Hughes for your honesty and attention in this matter.

I am thankful it wasn’t me who came across this. I just reposted the photos from the Facebook page for those unable to access them. I am glad that Vans has responded quickly to determine how this happened and hopefully has limited the damage.

 

[mstrauss]

I am thankful it wasn’t me who came across this. I just reposted the photos from the Facebook page for those unable to access them. I am glad that Vans has responded quickly to determine how this happened and hopefully has limited the damage.

Agreed! They look to be much more proactive in dealing with this. I just received an email indicating I may have received one or more potential LCP in my replacement LCP shipment, and will be receiving replacement parts ASAP. Third time's a charm.

 

[bertschb]

I just received an email indicating I may have received one or more potential LCP in my replacement LCP shipment, and will be receiving replacement parts ASAP.

Same here.

 

[lipper03]

Same, but I had checked my pieces but at the first Facebook post and my parts were dec 2023 stamped, and do not look like lcp, so just something to watch.

 

[FlyHigh]

Take it from a person that works in the certified aircraft world...In my book, Vans gets an A+ for parts traceability...maybe not so good in past decision making...but, hopefully, we can all move forward. As will I, once I receive my replacement replacements.

 

[Jayhox88]

Same here.

Same

 

[Latech15]

Just for a bit of info, if you laser cut metal with film ON THE TOP SIDE, the shielding gasses will, often times, get under the film and blow a bubble under the film. It will typically wrap up around the cutting head and cause a machine fault and require lots of clean up. For this reason, film would be applied, at least to the top, after the cut, and before the bending. The film helps to keep the die marks from scarring the parts during the bending process.

And I agree with the other poster that the other part in question appears to be cut with a waterjet.

 

[ATC_RV8OR]

So they found 16 unique part numbers in their inventory at the warehouse and identified them. Were there other part numbers yet to be identified because they were depleted from inventory and already shipped? Waiting on crowdsourcing to see what other easter eggs are out there? Or do they know for a fact they only did those 16?

 

[MIKE JG]

I think many of us got that latest email. Did it only go out to 16 people or did it go out to just about anyone who ordered replacement parts during a specific time frame?

BTW my only affected part was for a single wing rib and it is very clearly not laser cut.

 

[RV7A Flyer]

Take it from a person that works in the certified aircraft world...In my book, Vans gets an A+ for parts traceability...maybe not so good in past decision making...but, hopefully, we can all move forward. As will I, once I receive my replacement replacements.

I have to disagree. That they had to stop work, review their entire inventory and attempt to "discover" other similar parts means they weren't able to trace from supplier to finished/shipped product to customer, or in the other direction.

 

[ATC_RV8OR]

For clarity, can the blue plastic process be explained?

When is it applied in the process?
Why was it overwhelming not applied during LCP process?
When, why was it applied on these 16 part numbers during the LCP process? Was it done for reasons that would have applied to other parts not yet identified?

Trying to figure out how we got here. Why blue plastic was noted as 100% punched per Vans LCP identification process.

Other than finding leftovers in inventory if Vans has any idea if there are other parts that were not found in inventory because they were depleted from inventory used filling orders.

This is more likely than not a Greg H question.

 

[Brantel]

My understanding is that there were a few parts that had significant forming operations to manufacture them that after the sheets had the holes cut, the film was applied to protect the surface of the part and lubricate the dies during forming.

 

[ATC_RV8OR]

Going on the significant forming theory, usually when there’s a Left part there’s a Right part. I’d imagine both receive significant forming.

The RV-8 parts don’t have a left or right affected companion.

How did the the other half escape the same fate?

 

[bobrv7taildragger]

I was going to be sent a new rv7 W710 R. I rand and told them not too. I checked my 710 and its not LCP. Commendable Vans was just going to shoot one out to me and I am a (Long Long Long way away) Seemed silly to bear that expense unnecessarily. I guess others could check their replacement parts and do the same to ease financial burden. Its easy to see what is LCP and what is not.

 

[deMan]

I was going to be sent a new rv7 W710 R. I rand and told them not too. I checked my 710 and its not LCP. Commendable Vans was just going to shoot one out to me and I am a (Long Long Long way away) Seemed silly to bear that expense unnecessarily. I guess others could check their replacement parts and do the same to ease financial burden. Its easy to see what is LCP and what is not.

I was about to get FL-903s and called them that I don’t need them. The replacements they sent before had a 2021 sticker so definitely not laser cut.

No point in Vans wasting money to ship me a large part that I don’t need that’s then laying around my shop uselessly. I already have the LCP version that I don’t have a use for.

 

[ATC_RV8OR]

For clarity, can the blue plastic process be explained?

When is it applied in the process?
Why was it overwhelming not applied during LCP process?
When, why was it applied on these 16 part numbers during the LCP process? Was it done for reasons that would have applied to other parts not yet identified?

Trying to figure out how we got here. Why blue plastic was noted as 100% punched per Vans LCP identification process.

Other than finding leftovers in inventory if Vans has any idea if there are other parts that were not found in inventory because they were depleted from inventory used filling orders.

This is more likely than not a Greg H question.

I guess after a week with no response my question doesn’t dignify an answer

 

[Derek.plough]

I guess after a week with no response my question doesn’t dignify an answer

Yep, good luck. Nothing has changed…

 

[FinnFlyer]

I guess after a week with no response my question doesn’t dignify an answer

Perhaps because your question was answered in post #15 and other posts.

 

[ATC_RV8OR]

Perhaps because your question was answered in post #15 and other posts.

Not really, Post #15 does not address my entire question.

I asked why Vans guidance previously identified blue plastic as punch parts.
Why was this process done on these few parts and not on others. I received many laser parts that were manufactured and bent without said protection, why these specifically?

I also asked in my post #32 how a left part that was affected has no corresponding right part? Both parts would have received the same bending and needed “protection”

Also from post 15 response it indicates that these parts were found in Vans inventory. I asked a follow up question concerning that “search”. If there were other parts affected but were not found in Vans inventory because they were already depleted by way of being shipped to customers. Thought it would be interesting to have Vans clarify the point and that there could be other unidentified part numbers because Vans only identified parts on hand. There’s a big difference between announcing “we found them all” and “we found these specific parts in our inventory”
One statement has finality and the other is still open for Easter eggs amongst builder inventory.

It was a bigger question than what was “answered” in post 15. It still remains unanswered.

 

[DonMcKee]

So they found 16 unique part numbers in their inventory at the warehouse and identified them. Were there other part numbers yet to be identified because they were depleted from inventory and already shipped? Waiting on crowdsourcing to see what other easter eggs are out there? Or do they know for a fact they only did those 16?

I had one part from the list that was in my LCP replacement order. I received the "automatic" shipment from Van's yesterday, and was surprised to find that I was shipped all four of the parts that were listed for the RV-14. That made me curious about two of the parts that I just recently installed in my aft fuse (F-01486A-L and -R J-stiffeners). I went back to my pictures and discovered that my F-01486A-R had blue vinyl that covered the rivet holes -- an LCP that I didn't know I had.

Looking closer at my pics, I found two more parts included in my original shipment (and since built into my aft fuse ) that appear to have blue vinyl over the rivet holes: F-01486C-L & R stiffeners.

So, there are other parts out there that were "vinyl-ed" after the rivet holes were cut. Who knows whether some of them may have shipped out as LCP replacements. Be careful out there!

 

[ATC_RV8OR]

I had one part from the list that was in my LCP replacement order. I received the "automatic" shipment from Van's yesterday, and was surprised to find that I was shipped all four of the parts that were listed for the RV-14. That made me curious about two of the parts that I just recently installed in my aft fuse (F-01486A-L and -R J-stiffeners). I went back to my pictures and discovered that my F-01486A-R had blue vinyl that covered the rivet holes -- an LCP that I didn't know I had.

Looking closer at my pics, I found two more parts included in my original shipment (and since built into my aft fuse ) that appear to have blue vinyl over the rivet holes: F-01486C-L & R stiffeners.

So, there are other parts out there that were "vinyl-ed" after the rivet holes were cut. Who knows whether some of them may have shipped out as LCP replacements. Be careful out there!

This is exactly what I was talking about and was not answered in post #15 as another member was quick to point out that it was addressed.

At least you took photos. What about the rest of us that dropped coin on replacements and now have that itch in the back of our minds that there’s still LCP in there. Won’t know because we thought blue plastic was good to go.

 

[deMan]

At least you took photos. What about the rest of us that dropped coin on replacements and now have that itch in the back of our minds that there’s still LCP in there. Won’t know because we thought blue plastic was good to go.

Unfortunately I think this one is as much on you as it is on Vans. It should be obvious by now that Vans doesn’t have good parts tracking. I’ve personally started taking photos of every single part that goes into my build so even if Vans doesn’t I still know what parts I have.

Even irrespective of LCP, other EABs had issues with a bad batch of aluminum from the mill that lead to accidents. So it’s a good idea to track your parts.

I think at this point it should be a general recommendation that every builder does their own part tracking in some form.


Based on my observations at a factory tour, Vans has a large machine that applies the blue film to whole sheets of aluminum they get from the mill. This happens before anything else is done. This means operations done to the aluminum are also done to the blue film, I.e. punching and bending.

To my knowledge, for LCP blue Film was not applied since the laser cutting would melt the plastic.

It’s also not applied for parts that get heat treated for the same reason.


In general the motivation behind the blue film seems to be to protect the part during manufacturing and reduce the scrap rate. Apparently that’s one of the reasons punch presses are preferred to laser cutting because it allows to have the film which protects the part during forming and reduces scrapped parts.

That summarizes what I’ve gathered/learned from all the different threads on here.

 

[DonMcKee]

To my knowledge, for LCP blue Film was not applied since the laser cutting would melt the plastic.

That was the prevailing wisdom, until now. Apparently, as documented in this thread, there were cases where the the film was applied after the sheets were laser cut (rivet holes only? ). Now, you need to look a little closer:

• No blue (or clear) film: possible LCP (could be heat-treated)
• Film, including over rivet holes: probable LCP
• Film, but not over rivet holes: not LCP

 

[DonMcKee]

Looking closer at my pics, I found two more parts included in my original shipment (and since built into my aft fuse ) that appear to have blue vinyl over the rivet holes: F-01486C-L & R stiffeners.

FYI, @greghughespdx called a few minutes ago to follow up on the additional parts I posted about (to be clear, I received them in my original kit shipment, received
August, '23). I asked him about the process involved with these vinyl covered laser cut parts. He told me that there were a handful of LCPs (like the J-stiffeners I received) that could be damaged, or damage equipment, when put through the forming process without vinyl. To prevent that, Van's hand-wrapped and trimmed the parts after laser cutting, but before forming. They quickly realized that this process was too labor intensive to continue, and reverted to CNC punching these parts, but not before some number of them made it to the warehouse.

When it came time to remove the LCPs from the shelves, folks were looking for vinyl, or lack thereof. These odd-ball parts weren't on anybody's radar, and some of them slipped through.

 

[Van's Aircraft]

FYI, @greghughespdx called a few minutes ago to follow up on the additional parts I posted about (to be clear, I received them in my original kit shipment, received
August, '23). I asked him about the process involved with these vinyl covered laser cut parts. He told me that there were a handful of LCPs (like the J-stiffeners I received) that could be damaged, or damage equipment, when put through the forming process without vinyl. To prevent that, Van's hand-wrapped and trimmed the parts after laser cutting, but before forming. They quickly realized that this process was too labor intensive to continue, and reverted to CNC punching these parts, but not before some number of them made it to the warehouse.

When it came time to remove the LCPs from the shelves, folks were looking for vinyl, or lack thereof. These odd-ball parts weren't on anybody's radar, and some of them slipped through.

Thanks Don.

Some additional info: The type and number of J-channel stiffener parts produced was small and quite limited in scope. Only one batch was produced, and after the scratching issue was discovered, these parts were produced in-house on the punch presses from that point on.

We are continually working to address this, and reaching out to customers. Also, the parts in question are all classified as "acceptable for use" on the parts list when laser-cut. We take the need to communicate this information very seriously and will, of course, continue to reach out to potentially affected customers as necessary and appropriate.

 

[bobrv7taildragger]

needless to say I have checked every part on random holes...blue plastic or not...very easy to see the difference of a Knawed out horrible laser cut hole versus a clean punch hole. Look for the very small "ring of confidence" around the punched holes....this is quite easy to see where obviously the tooling sits as the punch goes through. Under a magnifying glass you can see the very small difference in both sides of the punched holes. The laser cut parts on mine were horrible with many affected by slag that just would not even sand off... I am so glad they have been absolutely purged from my build. Im glad vans survived this and are trying to rectify the laser cut debacle.

 

[airguy]

needless to say I have checked every part on random holes...blue plastic or not...very easy to see the difference of a Knawed out horrible laser cut hole versus a clean punch hole. Look for the very small "ring of confidence" around the punched holes....this is quite easy to see where obviously the tooling sits as the punch goes through. Under a magnifying glass you can see the very small difference in both sides of the punched holes. The laser cut parts on mine were horrible with many affected by slag that just would not even sand off... I am so glad they have been absolutely purged from my build. Im glad vans survived this and are trying to rectify the laser cut debacle.

To be fair, laser cutting of aluminum CAN be done correctly - it was not in this case.

 

[deMan]

To be fair, laser cutting of aluminum CAN be done correctly - it was not in this case.

I thought it was done correctly during the initial evaluation and early production, just that tool paths changed unknowingly then leading to the poorly cut holes.

Since those wrapped LCPs were made very early on in the LCP production I think it’s very likely that they used the good tool paths, not the bad kind that people started noticing because the holes had notches.

 

[ccarlson]

Heads up, folks. Yesterday, I saw a FB builder group post concerning LCP-replacement wing ribs that appear to have under-pressed stiffening features. I have seen no such info on VAF yet.

The FB poster indicated he had contacted Van’s and was told this is a “known issue.”

I checked my photo records this morning, and it seems I have many examples of wing ribs and seat ribs with this “under-pressing” issue. I now plan to go dig into my wing and fuselage kits to determine the full scope of my situation.

I suspect others may want to check their parts as well.

The following image (taken when I received LCP replacement parts) is of new F-01417-L and -R next to LCP versions of the same. The stiffener in the -R is faint, and there is no sign of a stiffener in the -L.

The next image is of new W-1008-[LR]-1 and W-1010-[LR]-1 next to LCP versions of the same. Stiffeners are faint to non-existent in the new parts.

This final image is of new W-1009-[LR]-3 next to LCP versions of the same. Again, stiffeners are faint to non-existent in the new parts.

Based on a review of my photo archive, my new W-1011-[LR]-1 ribs appear to have the stiffener elements properly pressed, so I am hopeful the scope of this will be limited. Now I shall cross my fingers and hope the physical inspection tracks with the photos… <sigh>

 

[MIKE JG]

We're about to find out how advanced Van's new parts inventory system really is. Obviously with your report, this is not a one-off situation. Your new parts are bar coded so in theory they should know which parts went to which customer.

But again, we're back to that very basic issue of no one at Van's catching these parts as they were being crated up???

 

[idubrov]

FWIW, I have two set of ribs with this "under-pressed stiffener" issue:

1. W-408-(L/R) I received originally in December, 2022.
2. LCP replacement main ribs W-00711-(L/R)-1 I received in May, 2024.