RNB · May 20, 2024

I own a c172, have found maintenance a bit frustrating as far as availability. I have been accepted to a community college AP school that will take almost two years to complete. My big picture goals is to become an IA so I can work on and sign off my own plane. School is an hour away driving, on an airport should I fly to class. Classes are 8-1 or maybe 8-2.

i toured the Vans factory last week and think the 14 will work for me. Test flight with factory rep this week to make sure before ordering. A repairmen’s certificate would serve me the same purpose as going to school.

With a RV10 builder i was discussing the idea of not going to school and just building. He said I should do both.

As a practical matter, how much would holding an AP help in building and/or maintaining an RV. Is it worth a slower build time to do so concurrently (build and school). I’m retired with ability to do both.

Thank you

BH1166 · May 20, 2024

Not a builder, but post flying airplane does need much metal work. My opinion is no on the need for school unless you want to work on your cessna.. Build your plane, and go to engine school and I bet you will know most all you need to maintain your RV . I do all on mine, even to lapping valves on my engine. Enjoy your journe.

Mel · May 20, 2024

I never discourage people from getting more education. You will never regreat getting your A&P. And it is getting easier to get. The FAA now accepts work on your amateur-built as counting toward required experience.

Besides working on your Cessna, you will also be able to perform condition inspections on amateur-built for others who don't have their repairman certificate.

fixnflyguy · May 20, 2024

RNB said:
I own a c172, have found maintenance a bit frustrating as far as availability. I have been accepted to a community college AP school that will take almost two years to complete. My big picture goals is to become an IA so I can work on and sign off my own plane. School is an hour away driving, on an airport should I fly to class. Classes are 8-1 or maybe 8-2.

i toured the Vans factory last week and think the 14 will work for me. Test flight with factory rep this week to make sure before ordering. A repairmen’s certificate would serve me the same purpose as going to school.

With a RV10 builder i was discussing the idea of not going to school and just building. He said I should do both.

As a practical matter, how much would holding an AP help in building and/or maintaining an RV. Is it worth a slower build time to do so concurrently (build and school). I’m retired with ability to do both.

Thank you

I have been an A&P for 45years and an IA for almost 30 years. I also built my RV-4, and I can tell you that obtaining an A&P is just the beginning. It's takes years to be a competent A&P in G/A, and even more to obtain the minimum requirement to be an IA. There is alot to learn after the ticket is in your hand. I make my living in the commercial aircraft overhaul industry and enjoy my passion for G/A and EXP as a hobby. I also mentor up and coming AP candidates at my day job , because they can work and earn their tickets rather than go through school. I got mine at age of 19 through a very good school in Pittsburgh, and there are 2 good schools here in Greensboro NC. Feel free to come visit me at 8A7 where my RV4 is based and I live ,in Central NC (your in NC I see) if you want to chat about the process.

Ironflight · May 20, 2024

I also greatly encourage folks getting as much education in whatever they enjoy doing - so long as they keep enjoying it! That said, I got my A&P based on about 40 years experience in working on airplanes, not by going to a school, and when I talk with (some) school-trained A&P’s, it is amazing how few “building” s kills they have. Honestly, when you think that an A&P can sign off work on anything from a Cessna 150 to a 747….or a gyro plane, you realize just how little time there is in the curriculum to learn metal fabrication (or wood, or tube and fabric, or ….) skills.

I must admit, when I read the first sentence or two of the original post, my thought was “if you want to go fishing, go fishing.. If you want to eat fish, go buy it….its WAY cheaper!” TO go for an A&P and IA becasue you want to save money on maintingin your one airplane is kinda like that. But circling back to MY first sentence…if you enjoy the learning and the topic…go for it! Life is about experiences!

RNB · May 20, 2024

My question really pertains to if the skills I’d learn in AP school would be sufficiently complimentary in building and maintaining a 14. If I like the test flight this week, will order a kit. Should I continue with school plans.

Auburntsts · May 20, 2024

Just piling on and adding to our discussion over on POA. There's no right or wrong here. Will it help in maintaining your aircraft be it standard certificated or E-AB ? Yes (but probably overkill based upon what you've posted to date). Do you need it for building/maintaining an E-AB? No, unless you feel you lack the necessary skill/knowledge. However all of that can be easily obtained without going through the time and effort of a formal A & P course. In fact, for standard certificated aircraft, outside of the the IA requirements, you could do owner assisted maintenance under the supervision of a willing A & P. In the end, you'll have to decide what's the best path for you based your goals and circumstances.

Auburntsts · May 20, 2024

Here's some resources for for obtaining skills and knowledge that might help inform your decision:

EAA SportAir Workshops: Build Your Own Airplane | EAA

Hints for Homebuilders

storm_pilot · May 20, 2024

Mel said:
I never discourage people from getting more education. You will never regreat getting your A&P. And it is getting easier to get. The FAA now accepts work on your amateur-built as counting toward required experience.

Besides working on your Cessna, you will also be able to perform condition inspections on amateur-built for others who don't have their repairman certificate.

Hey Mel,

Could you cite where I can find the guidance for that to show to my FSDO? I’ve looked but can’t find it. Its frustrating that we have to do the fed’s job for them sometimes.

Freemasm · May 20, 2024

RNB said:
My question really pertains to if the skills I’d learn in AP school would be sufficiently complimentary in building and maintaining a 14. If I like the test flight this week, will order a kit. Should I continue with school plans.

Others have already stated or alluded to, any certificate, diploma, degree, etc. is your license to learn. It is a jump-off point. You'll learn far more from doing (especially your mistakes) and from your mentors than anything else. Learn to identify smart people, ones that have good skill sets, etc. and absorb what you can from them.

There are two aircraft service centers within 100 yards of my hangar. I know both of the owners pretty well. They both complain about the lack of real skills their recently minted A&Ps have. Success comes down to the individual. I work with people that have multiple advanced degrees. Some I wouldn't trust to put gas in my car. I've also worked with some wonderfully talented technicians that I would trust trust their technical opinions over the aforementioned any day. Enjoy your journey.

rocketbob · May 20, 2024

I have a good friend who is a DME in Central FL. His pass rate is 60%. While I was there he failed an applicant for not being able to change and safety wire an oil filter, despite pointing out to the candidate that all the instructions were on the box for the oil filter. The schools are not producing qualified candidates.

That said this morning I had a friend call me asking how to deal with an improperly assembled nosewheel on his Mooney because the A&P lost the spacers while changing a flat tire for him.

One would think having an A&P certificate guarantees a level of competence, but in reality its just a license to get on-the-job training.

BobTurner · May 20, 2024

May I address the fine print question at the bottom of your (OP) post? (10 vs 14).
I have never heard anyone complain about having ‘too much airplane’. Tim Olson (occasionally here on VAF) has both, and says that if he could have only one, he’d keep the 10. When I was building the 10, I considered carrying no passenger liability - because I thought no one, other than my wife, would want to fly in an EAB. I was wrong. Many friends are happy to fly places with us, whether just for dinner, or to see an eclipse. We also have a hundred pound dog. And my wife seems to think that even a weekend trip requires 3 suitcases. For me, the incremental cost of the 10 is worth every penny. I’m also retired, so rarely in a hurry. I typically fly the -10 LOP at 10 gal/hr, and settle for 160 ktas. Of course, if you want to do aerobatics, then the -10 is wrong for you. Only you know what’s right for you.

As to your original question about A&P school: Just like the others have said, there’s nothing wrong with education, if you enjoy it. But not really necessary. What is necessary is that you gain the skill to inspect your own work as you go, and have a good understanding as to what is acceptable and what is not. Make certain that you read the flimsy, loose leaf bound ‘construction manual’ that comes with the kit. There’s a ton of good info there. I’m always amazed that some builders never take the time to read it, cover to cover.

RNB · May 20, 2024

BobTurner said:
May I address the fine print question at the bottom of your (OP) post? (10 vs 14).
I have never heard anyone complain about having ‘too much airplane’. Tim Olson (occasionally here on VAF) has both, and says that if he could have only one, he’d keep the 10. When I was building the 10, I considered carrying no passenger liability - because I thought no one, other than my wife, would want to fly in an EAB. I was wrong. Many friends are happy to fly places with us, whether just for dinner, or to see an eclipse. We also have a hundred pound dog. And my wife seems to think that even a weekend trip requires 3 suitcases. For me, the incremental cost of the 10 is worth every penny. I’m also retired, so rarely in a hurry. I typically fly the -10 LOP at 10 gal/hr, and settle for 160 ktas. Of course, if you want to do aerobatics, then the -10 is wrong for you. Only you know what’s right for you.

As to your original question about A&P school: Just like the others have said, there’s nothing wrong with education, if you enjoy it. But not really necessary. What is necessary is that you gain the skill to inspect your own work as you go, and have a good understanding as to what is acceptable and what is not. Make certain that you read the flimsy, loose leaf bound ‘construction manual’ that comes with the kit. There’s a ton of good info there. I’m always amazed that some builders never take the time to read it, cover to cover.

there is no 10 v 14 debate for me. I sat in a 10 and found the entry And exit a bit difficult. i’m Lucky my wife has not remembered my wanting to honor her no low wing proposal.

Nobody flies with me, perhaps I sent them too many stories of my training adventures.

14 fits the needs.

Roadjunkie1 · May 20, 2024

RNB said:
My question really pertains to if the skills I’d learn in AP school would be sufficiently complimentary in building and maintaining a 14.

I think the skills you acquire building the -14 will serve you well in maintaining it. You will learn way more than you thought you would! A&P school would be a great fund of knowledge to have and will make you more educated about your -14 and aviation in general. On-the-job training is much more beneficial than any school you would attend. I was fortunate enough to have put myself through college working as an assistant to an IA for 5 years and learned quite a bit more than I would have attending school for that long. I have an inherent ability to learn mechanical things easily and quickly. That said, my graduate studies were putting together an RV-4!

RNB said:
If I like the test flight this week, will order a kit.

You realize, of course, taking the test flight you are screwed!

You might as well just order the kit now!!

RNB said:
Should I continue with school plans.

If you have time and it doesn't interfere with your building and other things in your life! See above.......

Roadjunkie1 · May 20, 2024

rocketbob said:
I have a good friend who is a DME in Central FL. His pass rate is 60%. While I was there he failed an applicant for not being able to change and safety wire an oil filter, despite pointing out to the candidate that all the instructions were on the box for the oil filter. The schools are not producing qualified candidates.

A friend of mine who was an electronics specialist in the Navy working on aircraft on carriers (F-18 Growlers) went to a local A&P school and she was amazed at the ineptitude of some of the students. They started out with two classes of 35 and graduated one class of 22 students.

rocketbob said:
That said this morning I had a friend call me asking how to deal with an improperly assembled nosewheel on his Mooney because the A&P lost the spacers while changing a flat tire for him. One would think having an A&P certificate guarantees a level of competence, but in reality its just a license to get on-the-job training.

Kind of like getting your PP certificate! Ask me about what it was like to graduate from medical school!

BobTurner · May 20, 2024

RNB said:
there is no 10 v 14 debate for me. I sat in a 10 and found the entry And exit a bit difficult. i’m Lucky my wife has not remembered my wanting to honor her no low wing proposal.

Nobody flies with me, perhaps I sent them too many stories of my training adventures.

14 fits the needs.

Clearly, no one showed you the entry-exit ‘technique’ for the -10! I have to brief all new passengers, but once you figure it out it’s not too hard.
My wife also swore she’d never again fly in a low wing after a near disaster exiting a Piper Archer. But a simple, plastic fold up two step ladder has made entry/exit much easier for her. It fits thru the 10’s baggage door when folded. But I’d carry it for my wife if I had a 14, too. The first step up is a big step, otherwise, for a short woman.

1001001 · May 20, 2024

Mel said:
The FAA now accepts work on your amateur-built as counting toward required experience.

I did NOT know that. Where can I find more detail!??!

n82rb · May 21, 2024

A&P school, like all schools, does not make you an expert in anything. it gives you the basic knowledge to go out and really learn the profession. the average 2 seat RV has over 12,000 rivets in it. in A&P school you will drive what, less than 100. so, A&P school really gives you little skills to build an airplane, but building an airplane gives you he skill set to be a better A&P.
that being said, if you are the type of person that really wants to be hands on in the maintenance of your airplane go for it.

Dad's RV-10 · May 21, 2024

A bit tangential but it's not uncommon for shops to have employees wrenching who don't even have their A&P. They are working under the supervision of an A&P or IA.

The A&P/IA makes the logbook/record entries.

1001001 · May 21, 2024

Dad's RV-10 said:
A bit tangential but it's not uncommon for shops to have employees wrenching who don't even have their A&P. They are working under the supervision of an A&P or IA.

The A&P/IA makes the logbook/record entries.

I have considered this as a retirement job.

MacCool · May 21, 2024

This whole educational process is familiar to anyone who practices medicine. Didactic education alone, even four grueling years, is simply not enough to be an optimally competent practitioner. Medical school simply teaches one what they need to learn and provides the knowledge to understand how to learn it. In Medicine after graduation, like most trades, a rigid four to six year apprenticeship is where the actual acquisition of competence occurs. There's just no substitute for experience.

fixnflyguy · May 21, 2024

1001001 said:
I have considered this as a retirement job.

Uncertified mechanics make up a higher percentage than most think. I work at one of largest MRO's in the US where we maintain airliners and military aircraft. About 50 percent of our techs that are uncertified work under the umbrella of the certificated leadership and the provisions of the part 145 repair station certificate. It's common worldwide, and has been for decades.

bruceh · May 21, 2024

I did the A&P School route recently. I learned so much more about airplanes and maintenance than I did from building my RV-9A. As others have pointed out, it is a license to learn.
In my cohort of classmates, I was the only pilot and builder. That gave me some advantages. Some of the students were straight out of High School, and others were just out of the military. A wide variety of skill levels and experiences for sure. I was able to scoot right along through all of the lab projects, whereas some students could hardly use a screw driver.

I have written lots of blog entries about my experience going back to school, so if you want more detail read on here:

Back to School

I never imagined that I’d become a full time student again. I’ve been trying to figure out how to get my Airframe and Powerplant (A&P) Mechanic license so I can continue to expand m…