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Don't mix Garmin ESP and Aerobatics

Lyle RV8

Member
About a year ago I completed a panel upgrade to a G3X system in my RV8. Since I occasionally do light aerobatics I added a switch on the panel to disable the Electronic Stability Protection (ESP) function.

Unfortunately, the best laid plans can go awry. Recently I forgot to disengage the ESP before doing a roll. Everything felt normal until I was about 135 degrees into a left roll when the roll rate slowed dramatically, at the same time I was pushing the stick to the left with a much higher level of force than normal. Even worse as I reached inverted the nose started to drop below the horizon even though I was forcefully pushing the stick forward to keep the nose above the horizon. I didn’t realize it at the time, but the ESP had engaged and was actively fighting my control inputs in the worse possible way. (While I have had ESP engage many times in steep turns, it felt completely different when upside down, I really had no clue what was happening)

Luckily, I reacted properly by keeping the roll going, albeit at a much slower roll rate. I had difficulty overcoming the ESP pitch inputs and by the time the aircraft rolled upright it was pitched about 45 degrees nose down. I did a 3.5 G pullout and the airspeed indicated ~190 kts when the aircraft leveled out. Definitely the scariest few seconds of my flying career.

Afterwards I talked with Garmin about what happened. They confirmed my observations were generally in line with their expectation of how ESP would react in a roll and that they have been informed of other pilots doing the same thing. Somehow I felt better – guess stupidity loves company. My question to them was can they add an aural alert that ESP has engaged? That would have helped immensely as there is an autopilot disconnect on the stick that could have easily been used if only I knew that ESP was actively fighting me.

Going forward I have taken 2 actions. I reduced the autopilot servo torque settings. But more importantly I have prohibited aerobatics in my RV8. Since I forgot to disable ESP prior to aerobatics once, I am assuming it could happen again. For me that is an unacceptable risk.
 
Thanks for posting your experience. Nice save.

But more importantly I have prohibited aerobatics in my RV8. Since I forgot to disable ESP prior to aerobatics once, I am assuming it could happen again. For me that is an unacceptable risk.

Maybe an Aerobatics checklist:

  • ESP - OFF
  • Fuel Tank Selected - Flop Tube
  • Seatbelts and Shoulder Harness - Tight
  • Loose items - Stowed
  • Airspace - Clear
  • ESP - OFF
 
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I never enabled ESP in the settings, so for me it's a non issue.

Turned mine off in the config menu for this exact reason. ESP sounds great in a C172 type plane, not so much in things that go upside down. I always have the "level" button on the 507 in case something goes really wrong.
 
Turned mine off in the config menu for this exact reason. ESP sounds great in a C172 type plane, not so much in things that go upside down. I always have the "level" button on the 507 in case something goes really wrong.

What's the "507" ?
 
When ESP is switched off remotely, does the G3X display a warning or message?
 
I'm surprised there isn't an aural alert. In the G1000 version you get a scary voice that sounds like your high school vice principal yelling "AUTOPILOT ON". in your ear.

I've forgotten to turn that stupid thing off several times with student pilots doing stalls or slow flight or whatever. They don't know enough to feel it bumping them and I'm not on teh controls to notice it, so when it kicks in 100% it's always a surprise, and a little bit scary.
 
I'm with Widget.

Indeed, why have an RV-8 and not do aerobatics? For that matter, why fly any airplane and not be aware of the entire flight envelope? Aerobatics make you a better pilot, able to recognise and recover from any unusual attitude. I don't feel comfortable just getting in an airplane. I want to put it on so that it is a natural extension of my body and reactive to every move I make. That's flying! I have come to realize that the vast majority of the RV community don't care to experience aerobatics for one reason or another and I accept that but it makes me sad to hear of accidents that would not have occurred if the pilot had known the basics of aerobatic flight.

Sermon over. Return to level flight.
 
Breakout Pressure

It might also suggest there is too much breakout pressure.

With the control loads we have with trimmed control surfaces in very mild maneuvering (autopilot engaged) the autopilot servo shouldn't have to work very hard at all. Breakout pressure on the stick ought to be something you feel going on but not enough to influence where the stick is going.

My servos have very light breakout pressure so I never had to look into it. Anyone know of adjusting the tension for breakout?

Does the Garmin ESP mode come with additional control surface engagement pressure?
 
A bit of history here, at least from my recollection.

Was flying the Expanded Envelope Exercises® with a journalist, and this included extensive slow flight with the stall warning on continuously. He didn't know the airplane and just accepted the heavier and heavier stick force. When I took backcontrol of the airplane, it was trimmed fully nose down!

It took a while to figure out what was going on, I declared a Pan, Pan, but we got the trim under control and all was happy. I posted the event to this group, and Garmin wasn't happy that I didn't give them a chance to respond first. (Did not find the post, sorry)

Turned out that when ESP came on, after ten more seconds or so, it turned on the autopilot. The autopilot applied a bunch of nose down force, and that in turn activated nose down trim.

At that time, autopilot engaged was annunciated by a single chime. Unfortunately, the stall warning had first priority and the single chime was never sounded.

Garmin then changed priority so that the single chime could be heard through the stall warning. However, the single chime was not conspicuous, so that led to an "Autopilot Engaged" voice message. (That's one of the few voice messages that I endorse, as so many messages don't need that high a priority attention getting.)

That's the story as I remember it, and I don't know what the latest is. I keep ESP turned off in the RV-9A, as it is redundant when the autopilot is on, and I'm fully engaged in flying the plane with the autopilot off.
 
Torque settings

Hi
Reading this post I’m curious what torque settings people are using.
I ask this as I intend to be using a G3X system.

Rob
 
What's wrong with this picture?

I have prohibited aerobatics in my RV8.
Hmm, not the choice I would make.

There are options like fixing the breakout tension, putting a disable button on the stick, or just disabling the feature altogether. I'd rather do one of those than let the automation dictate what kind of flying I'm going to do.

Then again, I've never had anything with ESB so I wouldn't miss it. :rolleyes:
 
Hi
Reading this post I’m curious what torque settings people are using.
I ask this as I intend to be using a G3X system.

Rob

Garmin can help you with this.

On my RV-9A:
Roll 40% torque, gain 0.6
Pitch 80% torque, gain 1.3
And there's settings for scheduling pitch trim with airspeed; minimum and maximum airspeeds, other stuff... as if doing a full envelope flight test alone wasn't enough. :)


Ed
 
Shear pins?

Surely Garmin servos have shear pins? It would seem you should have been able to overpower the servos even if that eventually led to servo disengagement when the shear pins failed as they should for safety. You may need a way to disengage Envelope Protection, an additional way to remove all power from the servos and you still need to verify shear pins which allow mechanical disengagement. Without shear pins a frozen/locked servo removes a control axis for the remainder of the flight.
 
Surely Garmin servos have shear pins? It would seem you should have been able to overpower the servos even if that eventually led to servo disengagement when the shear pins failed as they should for safety. You may need a way to disengage Envelope Protection, an additional way to remove all power from the servos and you still need to verify shear pins which allow mechanical disengagement. Without shear pins a frozen/locked servo removes a control axis for the remainder of the flight.

no shear pins on the garmin servos. THey are designed to allow movement once the pressure has exceed the commanded torque value. This is why proper testing of the programmed torque setting is so important. Need enough torque for the AP to do it's thing in rough air, but not so much that the pi;ot cannot over take it.
 
Hmm, not the choice I would make.

There are options like fixing the breakout tension, putting a disable button on the stick, or just disabling the feature altogether. I'd rather do one of those than let the automation dictate what kind of flying I'm going to do.

Then again, I've never had anything with ESB so I wouldn't miss it. :rolleyes:

Yeah not the choice I would make either.. perhaps leave the ESP switch off, only activating it for IFR type flights, since most flights in my -4, the plane loves to go upside down or at least banked steep enough that ESP would ckick in..
 
When ESP is switched off remotely, does the G3X display a warning or message?

When the external inhibit switch is used, the PFD will display the message "ESP INHIBIT", and the ESP-armed indication (green roll limit markers) will not appear.

Depending on how the autopilot is configured, ESP can also be disabled temporarily by holding the AP DISC button on the control stick for 5 seconds, which will result in a "ESP OFF" message on the PFD. It can subsequently be re-enabled using the on-screen interface, or will return to its default enable state on the next flight.
 
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I have prohibited aerobatics in my RV8.

As others have mentioned - I certainly would not limit the utility of the airplane for this. I would have prohibited Garmin ESP before I prohibited pretty much anything on the airplane.
 
ESP Considerations

The GSA 28 is driven by a gear train with engagement clutch which provides the ability to back drive the brushless DC motor and offer multiple levels of protection without the need to use a shear pin. However, one of the critical steps included as part of the autopilot installation and configuration is to complete the on-ground autopilot setup.

The on-ground setup involves configuring the maximum available servo torque for the autopilot system. The guidance for this step is to set the servo torque to a value that provides the autopilot with the highest level of authority over the control surfaces, while still allowing the pilot to overcome the servo if required. During this process, the installer engages the autopilot on the ground, and attempts to overpower the servo commands. If the servo is easily overcome, the servo torque is raised. If the servo cannot be overcome, the servo torque is lowered. This process is repeated until a suitable torque level is determined.

ESP can be enabled or disabled in configuration mode, from the menu titled ESP. If disabled, ESP will never be available for the pilot to use. If enabled, it can be armed or disarmed by the pilot at any point during the flight, using either the AFCS menu, or a dedicated panel mounted switch.

If ESP is enabled in configuration mode, and armed by the pilot, there are on-screen indications for the armed/disarmed state. If ESP is armed, a pair of green goal posts are displayed on the PFD. The indications are dynamic when ESP becomes active (in the case the aircraft leaves the configured flight envelope) More on these indications can be found on page 309 of the G3X Touch Pilot's Guide, rev. U.

ESP on.jpg

If ESP is enabled in configuration mode, but disarmed by the pilot, a CAS message is displayed on the PFD as shown below:

ESP off.jpg

If ESP is armed, and the aircraft if flown beyond the configured ESP thresholds, the servos will begin applying torque to the control surfaces to nudge the aircraft back in towards the flight envelope. If ESP is active and providing servo torque, pressing and holding the Autopilot disconnect button will disengage the autopilot servo for as long as the switch is active. If held for more than 5 seconds, ESP will be disarmed, and the CAS message referenced above will be displayed.

Please let us know if you have any other questions.

Thanks,

Justin
 
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Works for me

I can see how the OP could have some trouble but since I am in a 9, I have the ESP armed. I went through the torque setup and am satisfied with the way it works. As I approach 50 degrees I get a little resistance - just as I want.
 
Maximum available servo torque

I have flown the aero-clubs Piper Arrow with the Garmin Autopilot and ESP.
On short final the ESP pushed the stick hard forward and indication on the G5 was low speed. I had to use all my force pulling hard not to crash.
Checking the installation I found the servo clutch setting on 100 % and low
speed limit on 80 miles. This was an STC installation.
One need to understand that there are female pilots too.
I think that Garmin needs to reveiw the installation instruction.

In my own plane the ESP is set to OFF.

Good luck
 
This has been a super-informative thread. I think I've been convinced to disable ESP altogether. I love the Garmin features and the G3X is so much smarter than any system I've flown with in a certified aircraft. But letting it engage the autopilot servos on its own without an affirmative command from the pilot is a bridge just a little too far for me. I can definitely see this is an area where reasonable pilots can disagree, though.

Thanks to Justin for the full description of how the feature behaves when disabled and when enabled!
 
I have flown the aero-clubs Piper Arrow with the Garmin Autopilot and ESP.
On short final the ESP pushed the stick hard forward and indication on the G5 was low speed. I had to use all my force pulling hard not to crash.
Checking the installation I found the servo clutch setting on 100 % and low
speed limit on 80 miles. This was an STC installation.
One need to understand that there are female pilots too.
I think that Garmin needs to reveiw the installation instruction.

How is a certified installer erroneously performing an STC installation helped by Garmin reviewing the installation instructions that already say it's not supposed to be done that way?

- mark
 
I wired my plane with an autopilot switch on the dash that runs power to my servos. Normally that switch is off unless I plan on using the AP. That system has worked well and no chance of servos moving the stick in a way I didn't expect.
 
Easy enough to have ESP default to off on startup and then with 1 or 2 simple button presses, turn it on for those times you want it running in the background.
 
ESP Information

It is worth noting that when a system is shipped from our factory, ESP is disabled. The installer must enable ESP in configuration mode, and arm it in normal mode for it to ever be capable of providing servo torque to the control surfaces.

Becoming familiar with the on screen indications is probably the most important thing to understand before ever enabling this part of the system. The authority the pilot has over the servos through pressing and holding the AP disconnect is an important concept to understand as well.

Thanks,

Justin
 
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