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  #1  
Old 08-13-2021, 08:48 PM
WingnutWick's Avatar
WingnutWick WingnutWick is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Lemoore
Posts: 259
Default More planes - more projects (New RV-10 questions)

Hello fellow RV-10ers

I recently closed on an RV-10. Pretty low hours (480) but hasnít flown much since itís build (2007). It especially hasnít flown much in the last 4 years as the owner lived in Europe. Cylinders were removed and cam inspected due to sitting time - looked fine. Itís a nice build although fairly bare bones for a 10. Got it for a good price for a low hour 10 and plan to bring it into the ďvery niceĒ category over the next few years by upgrading the panel and interior and possibly a new paint job (though the current one isnít all that bad). Did my first trip inter-state with it the other day and have a few things that came up from my initial flights:

1. Nose heavy with full flaps: I noticed that with full flaps on landing the plane is pretty nose heavy. In that I am exhausting my up trim throw and the nose will still track down when the stick is released. Reducing power on flare further exacerbates this making the force to hold a flare significant. I switched to landing with 3/4 flaps to help alleviate this. Is this standard for the RV-10 or do you think the trim isnít set right? Do you all land with full flaps?

2. During the pre-buy inspection we never installed the cowling, engine bushings looked good though suspected some sag due to a little gap showing. After the 8 hours of flying I removed the cowling to inspect everything and noticed that there was rubbing on the lower cowling from the alternator that wasnít there before. I am guessing this has come from engine sagging. So - do I add spacers, re torque, or just replace the bushings altogether? If I replace the bushings, what is recommended? How big of a job is that?

3. While a comfy ride, it didnít have the harmonic purr that I like in cruise (it was very smooth on the descent with lower power). It sounded a bit like my girlfriendís 6 which has clearance issues with the exhaust and the fuselage and which I think could also use new engine mount bushings. I am new to flying C/S RVs as our 6A and 8 are both FP so I am not sure what is normal but Iíd really like a smooth, low vibration cruise experience. It's not terribly but not as smooth and quiet as I expected. Besides balancing the prop, I am curious if there may be other factors at play: 1. The above mentioned engine bushings 2. There is little to no clearance between the exhaust and then lower cowling (pics attached). I see there are what seems to be bracket mounts on the exhaust but they arenít connected to anything - thoughts?

4. Runs hot: I typically do everything I can to keep my O-360 below 400 on the CHTs. With this one, operating ROP I will see 400-420 on most cylinders. LOP it will be below 400. Being new to the 540 - is this normal? Baffling looks ok - the black style but well cut. What do you all normally see ROP and LOP?

5. Performance: I cant get more than 2600 RPM with full prop - normal? I expected to see 2700. Again - I am new to this motor and C/S.

6. How do the top pin bends work with the screw bracket on the top cowling? See pic attached. Iím not quite sure how they are supposed to sit and interact with that plate.

7. Looking for suggestions on interior/panels. I think I saw a photo somewhere of bucket seats in the back, anyone doing this?

I am sure there will be a lot more questions to come but this is the install volley. As always, your wisdom and suggestions are very much appreciated!

Thank you!
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F-18E/F, Mk.58, CF-5
RV-8 O-360
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  #2  
Old 08-13-2021, 09:55 PM
rocketman1988 rocketman1988 is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sunman, IN
Posts: 2,677
Default answers

I recently closed on an RV-10. Pretty low hours (480) but hasnít flown much since itís build (2007). It especially hasnít flown much in the last 4 years as the owner lived in Europe. Cylinders were removed and cam inspected due to sitting time - looked fine. Itís a nice build although fairly bare bones for a 10. Got it for a good price for a low hour 10 and plan to bring it into the ďvery niceĒ category over the next few years by upgrading the panel and interior and possibly a new paint job (though the current one isnít all that bad). Did my first trip inter-state with it the other day and have a few things that came up from my initial flights:

1. Nose heavy with full flaps: I noticed that with full flaps on landing the plane is pretty nose heavy. In that I am exhausting my up trim throw and the nose will still track down when the stick is released. Reducing power on flare further exacerbates this making the force to hold a flare significant. I switched to landing with 3/4 flaps to help alleviate this. Is this standard for the RV-10 or do you think the trim isnít set right? Do you all land with full flaps?

I normally land with 1/2 flaps, or about 18 degrees. I like the way it lands better. The -10 is nose heavy from the start, as basically everything you load moves the cg aft. Some people carry ballast in the baggage area when flying solo to shift the cg. One idea is a collapsible water jug used for camping...fill it when you need it, dump it when you don't...

2. During the pre-buy inspection we never installed the cowling, engine bushings looked good though suspected some sag due to a little gap showing. After the 8 hours of flying I removed the cowling to inspect everything and noticed that there was rubbing on the lower cowling from the alternator that wasnít there before. I am guessing this has come from engine sagging. So - do I add spacers, re torque, or just replace the bushings altogether? If I replace the bushings, what is recommended? How big of a job is that?

3. While a comfy ride, it didnít have the harmonic purr that I like in cruise (it was very smooth on the descent with lower power). It sounded a bit like my girlfriendís 6 which has clearance issues with the exhaust and the fuselage and which I think could also use new engine mount bushings. I am new to flying C/S RVs as our 6A and 8 are both FP so I am not sure what is normal but Iíd really like a smooth, low vibration cruise experience. It's not terribly but not as smooth and quiet as I expected. Besides balancing the prop, I am curious if there may be other factors at play: 1. The above mentioned engine bushings 2. There is little to no clearance between the exhaust and then lower cowling (pics attached). I see there are what seems to be bracket mounts on the exhaust but they arenít connected to anything - thoughts?

My exhaust stacks are supported at the firewall with rubber hangers. Loud is kind of subjective; I would never consider flying my -10 without headsets, and I used insulation where I could. Pretty sure it didn't make much of a difference...but the Bose A20s sure do!

4. Runs hot: I typically do everything I can to keep my O-360 below 400 on the CHTs. With this one, operating ROP I will see 400-420 on most cylinders. LOP it will be below 400. Being new to the 540 - is this normal? Baffling looks ok - the black style but well cut. What do you all normally see ROP and LOP?

I rarely see more than 410 in an extended climb. There are lots of holes that can be filled even if the baffling looks good. Also, how you execute your climbs will make a difference, too. In cruise LOP at 9500', I see temps < 375 degrees.

5. Performance: I cant get more than 2600 RPM with full prop - normal? I expected to see 2700. Again - I am new to this motor and C/S.

My governor is set for about 2700. Prop forward I routinely see 2680-2690. Might check the pitch stop on your governor.

6. How do the top pin bends work with the screw bracket on the top cowling? See pic attached. Iím not quite sure how they are supposed to sit and interact with that plate.

Can't say as I used Skybolts on my cowl.

7. Looking for suggestions on interior/panels. I think I saw a photo somewhere of bucket seats in the back, anyone doing this?

My complete interior was sourced from Aerosportproducts.com...highly recommended.

I am sure there will be a lot more questions to come but this is the install volley. As always, your wisdom and suggestions are very much appreciated!

Thank you!
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Aerospace Engineer '88

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N464RL

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  #3  
Old 08-13-2021, 11:59 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 7,771
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Did you get wt and bal info? I’d suggest re-doing it, planes seem to gain weight with time. To keep within the forward cg limit when solo, I need to carry 25 lbs of water in a plastic jug in the baggage area. Note: if you are close to either cg limit, check the cg at landing (no fuel). It will be worse than at takeoff. I land full flaps most of the time, and yes, even with full nose up trim, it still needs a pretty good pull in the flare when solo, and full aft stick gets the nose up an acceptable amount although I would prefer it to go up a little more than it does. Do I wish I had more trim? No. In the event of a go-around, there’s a strong nose down push needed. I wouldn’t want to make that worse.
Prop. If you’re lucky you can just adjust the governor screw for higher RPM, it should go to 2700 rpm. If you run out of cable length you’ll need to loosen the allen screws, rotate the end of the governor, re-tighten. Once you get to 2700 full power runup at sea level, pull the spinner, adjust the mechanical pitch stop until the rpm comes down very slightly.
Hinge pin retainer: top-firewall hinge pins should have a 90 bend in the last 1/4”. That small plate should have a semi-circle cut out at each end to capture the small vertical part of the pin. When you screw the capture plate lower, the pins can be pulled out, over the plate.
CHT: sound a bit high. OTOH most of us climb at 110-120 kias to keep CHTs 400-410 F. If you want to run LOP you may need to adjust the fuel injector apertures to get all cylinders to peak egt at the same time.

Last edited by BobTurner : 08-14-2021 at 12:08 AM.
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  #4  
Old 08-14-2021, 06:51 AM
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9GT 9GT is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Southern Michigan
Posts: 2,154
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Did you buy the black and white Moto-Pod demo plane? A friend of mine passed on that one and opted for a -9A.
Like Bob stated, the RV-10 is nose heavy. My short legs required I fly with the seat fully forward and found it mandatory to carry some ballast in the baggage compartment.
You will have to sort through the squawks with the plane, but overall I think you will be very happy once you do and complete the needed upgrades. Congratulations on you purchase.
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Howell, MI
RV-10: #41686 Under Construction
RV-9A: #90949 Under Construction
RV-10: #40637 Completed/Sold 2016
Cozy MKIV:#656 Completed/Sold 2007
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  #5  
Old 08-14-2021, 07:51 AM
lr172 lr172 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Posts: 6,539
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I will add a bit to the previous posts.

Definitely very nose down attitude on final when solo and full flaps. I typically use ballast, but have done without at times. Iuse much but not all up trim and have no issues with pull force in the flare. Like bob, i want some force required,as go around is unpleasant if you trim to hands off. You can likely make the trim better. The plans have you set up the tabs in a way that leaves them incorrect. Look at tim olsens site for a setup method that will fix this.

Most experience a slight continual vibration at cruise. This is addressed by reclocking the hartzell. I did this during the build and mine is very smooth. You can find the details by searching here.

I have ei, which adds heat as you get high in climb. My chts are below 400 untill 10k then go up to 415 and oil gets to 215. Effort sealing the gaps will help, like all rv’s. In cruise up high (14-15K), i never get cht’s above 375. Down low cooler. If your ei doesn’t have timing adjustments, you can expect higher temps at the top of climbs when going over 10K.

Larry
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Last edited by lr172 : 08-14-2021 at 07:57 AM.
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  #6  
Old 08-14-2021, 08:11 AM
rvanstory's Avatar
rvanstory rvanstory is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: New Braunfels
Posts: 422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingnutWick View Post
Hello fellow RV-10ers

1. Nose heavy with full flaps: I noticed that with full flaps on landing the plane is pretty nose heavy. In that I am exhausting my up trim throw and the nose will still track down when the stick is released. Reducing power on flare further exacerbates this making the force to hold a flare significant. I switched to landing with 3/4 flaps to help alleviate this. Is this standard for the RV-10 or do you think the trim isnít set right? Do you all land with full flaps?

Typical for RV10. I carry 2 - 35lb lead bags in baggage for ballast. Works great. Take them out as needed for baggage loads. My SOP is 1/2 flaps on landing.


3. While a comfy ride, it didnít have the harmonic purr that I like in cruise (it was very smooth on the descent with lower power). It sounded a bit like my girlfriendís 6 which has clearance issues with the exhaust and the fuselage and which I think could also use new engine mount bushings. I am new to flying C/S RVs as our 6A and 8 are both FP so I am not sure what is normal but Iíd really like a smooth, low vibration cruise experience. It's not terribly but not as smooth and quiet as I expected. Besides balancing the prop, I am curious if there may be other factors at play: 1. The above mentioned engine bushings 2. There is little to no clearance between the exhaust and then lower cowling (pics attached). I see there are what seems to be bracket mounts on the exhaust but they arenít connected to anything - thoughts?

If you have a 2 blade Hartzell, see this thread about re-clocking your prop. This procedure was fairly simple, and my 10 purrs like a turbine now. Made a HUGE difference in smoothness.https://vansairforce.net/community/s...d.php?t=145195


4. Runs hot: I typically do everything I can to keep my O-360 below 400 on the CHTs. With this one, operating ROP I will see 400-420 on most cylinders. LOP it will be below 400. Being new to the 540 - is this normal? Baffling looks ok - the black style but well cut. What do you all normally see ROP and LOP?

Take your cowl off (upper and lower) close your hangar doors, turn off the lights, then shine a flashlight up under the engine. I bet you will find a lot of ďholesĒ that need sealing around back baffles and bottom seals. Made 20 degree difference for me after sealing holes up.



Thank you!

See comments above.
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  #7  
Old 08-14-2021, 12:10 PM
Dorfie Dorfie is offline
 
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Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 478
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Your exhaust pipes are not the standard straight pipes from Vans. Those a turned down and the clamp is to attach the downturned pipes. That is not part of the Vans standard exhaust.

The picture of securing of the rear upper cowl pins: The pin on the left should be all the way in (against the fiberglass cowl edge) and the 90 degree bend pointing up. Same on the right. Then, when you tighten the two screws it raises the center metal fixture to keep the pins from moving. There are cutouts in the center metal part for the pins. See page 47-7 of construction drawing.

I always use half flap with two people up front. Much easier landing this way. I can land with full flap, but a fair amount of backpressure is required to keep the nose up. No ballast in rear.

Any part of the engine that touches any part of fuselage or cowling (exhaust against lower cowl, metal baffles touching the top cowl etc.) will cause engine vibrations to be conducted and felt in flight. I found that even if the space between the metal baffles are too small, vibration gets conducted through the flexible baffle material if the bend is too tight or stiff.

If you look at the inlet air ramps on the upper cowl (P47-5, fig 3), you will notice that on the left side at the outboard side a big gap exist. On the inside there is a big cutout to accommodate the prop governor. High pressure upper plenum air will have an easy escape to the low pressure of lower cowl. I closed the outside to prevent this.

Wishing you many hours of joyful flying. Its a marvelous machine!!

Best.

Johan
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  #8  
Old 08-14-2021, 12:27 PM
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Lenny Iszak Lenny Iszak is offline
 
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Location: Palm City, FL
Posts: 377
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Congrats on the -10!

1. Use half flaps when solo. Stall speed is much slower when solo anyway, so half flaps work well without increasing your landing speed too much.

2. Try spacers first for the engine mounts. If you need to swap them out use Barry or Lord brands, they are supposed to be the better ones. Balance the prop. Look into reclocking too. FWIW I reclocked my stock engine (D4A5) and it got worse.

3. Those "hangers" are just there to keep the exhaust pipe extensions on. Some use extensions to keep exhaust thumps down (you can feel them if you put your foot on the floor), and deflect exhaust heat radiated up into the floorboard and tunnel.
Get the exhaust pipes away from the cowling. It most definitely causes a bunch of vibration when they touch.

4. High CHTs. Flashlight trick mentioned earlier and also check the timing. Too much advance will crank up the CHTs.
Fly extended climbs at 120+ kias. That should keep the cylinders cool if everything else is set up right.

5. You should get 2700 rpm. Grab the manual for your governor, they'll give you the specs on how many turns on the screw per 100rpm increase. That way you'll dial it in faster. There's lots of power lost with that 100rpm, so be ready for even higher CHTs.

7. https://www.aerosportproducts.com/rv-10-products/

Tim Olson has a bunch of useful and well researched RV-10 stuff on his site. https://www.myrv10.com/

Lenny
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  #9  
Old 08-14-2021, 12:53 PM
Taltruda Taltruda is offline
 
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Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 876
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Put a wrench on the motor mount bolts and see if they move. If they do move, then pull the cotter pin and try to re torque them, then reinstall new cotter pins
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  #10  
Old 08-14-2021, 10:30 PM
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WingnutWick WingnutWick is offline
 
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Location: Lemoore
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Hey all,

Thanks for the feedback! A couple follow on questions as I don't have the digital plans yet in hand.

1. I'm glad to hear that the nose heavy thing is normal for RV-10. I'll start using ballast. I noticed that go-arounds can be sporty if you're not expecting the nose down force required! Will also investigate the trim a little per recommendations.

2. I read that adding spacers will change the thrust line of the motor as apparently it tends to sag straight down. I think checking torque is the first step then go from there with either spacers or new bushings. Anyone have the torque settings on hand?

3. Will look at re-locking the prop and getting the exhaust away from the cowling. So those exhaust extensions - if I pull them off will that be the stock RV-10 exhaust?

4. Will do all the suggested items to lower CHTs

5. Will work on adjusting governor for 2700RPM

6. So if I understand correctly the bend in the pins fit into the cutouts of the plate. Do the mind bends go (sticking out the top of the cowling) up or down? See attached graphic.

Thanks again all!

Cheers
Charles
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