VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

-POSTING RULES
-Advertise in here!
- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

Keep VAF Going
Donate methods

Point your
camera app here
to donate fast.


Go Back   VAF Forums > Main > Safety
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #21  
Old 01-03-2022, 05:03 PM
bjdecker's Avatar
bjdecker bjdecker is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Georgetown, TX
Posts: 1,135
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandlac58 View Post
Seriously, your answer lacks seriousness... but I guess it's the thought that counts!! ;-)
No disrespect, and I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek.

I am having a hard time understanding a scenario where:

#1. I need to bail out because...#2. the aircraft is not controllable and...#3. I need to control the aircraft in order to bail out.

If I can control the aircraft and roll inverted in order bail out, I think I can certainly maneuver it to a landing (I said "scene of the crash" earlier -- that was an inside joke...sorry).

Maybe it's a fire -- as demonstrated in the RV-8 crash, opening the canopy when on fire was probably the wrong thing to do. IMHO he would have been better off manipulating the aircraft to extinguish the fire (pull into a stall and dump the fire bottle -or- turn off the fuel, ignitions, battery and dive for the deck...).

Further, the difference between falling out of an inverted aircraft and climbing out is essentially nil -- the effects of the slip stream on your body will be the same.
__________________
Brian Decker
RV-7 (Flying)
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-03-2022, 07:10 PM
Eric Minnis Eric Minnis is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Burlington, NC
Posts: 111
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjdecker View Post
No disrespect, and I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek.

I am having a hard time understanding a scenario where:

#1. I need to bail out because...#2. the aircraft is not controllable and...#3. I need to control the aircraft in order to bail out.

If I can control the aircraft and roll inverted in order bail out, I think I can certainly maneuver it to a landing (I said "scene of the crash" earlier -- that was an inside joke...sorry).

Maybe it's a fire -- as demonstrated in the RV-8 crash, opening the canopy when on fire was probably the wrong thing to do. IMHO he would have been better off manipulating the aircraft to extinguish the fire (pull into a stall and dump the fire bottle -or- turn off the fuel, ignitions, battery and dive for the deck...).

Further, the difference between falling out of an inverted aircraft and climbing out is essentially nil -- the effects of the slip stream on your body will be the same.
One such scenario occurred back when I investigated things like this for a living. Was on scene for this one. Torque tube became dislodged from the aft thrust bearing leaving the elevator and ailerons useless. It happened during aerobatics and sadly, the pilot died. It was isolated to this particular S/N but just enough of a potential for re-occurrence that I made all the guys flying this particular airplane model aware of a way to fly the airplane and climb to a point where one could bail. We later practiced the same failure recovery on the ground. The fix was to jettison the canopy, use trim for pitch and grab the aileron with your hand for roll. Then climb high enough to bail. This particular airplane model is unique in that the aileron can be reached from the cockpit. That particular recovery technique came to me weeks after the investigation. I was unwilling to accept the fact that there was no chance for a recovery. Though not something I would want to have to do, it would work.

I'd bet a steak dinner that if enough experienced RV guys got together they could list a few failure modes that have a recovery that is not immediately obvious. To even talk about these things on the ground or here on this forum and make those decisions here has merit.
__________________
RV-?, XP-IO-360
Clip Wing Taylorcraft, IO-320
Dues paid for 2022!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-04-2022, 07:40 AM
Snowflake's Avatar
Snowflake Snowflake is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sidney, BC, Canada
Posts: 4,265
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandlac58 View Post
... but never left a perfectly functioning airplane
If you've been to many jump zones, you'll know that nobody has ever left a perfectly functioning airplane... :P
__________________
Rob Prior
1996 RV-6 "Tweety" C-FRBP (formerly N196RV)
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-04-2022, 07:49 AM
Snowflake's Avatar
Snowflake Snowflake is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sidney, BC, Canada
Posts: 4,265
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Minnis View Post
This particular airplane model is unique in that the aileron can be reached from the cockpit.
Now i'm curious... Rans S-10? Something mid-wing, surely?

Quote:
I'd bet a steak dinner that if enough experienced RV guys got together they could list a few failure modes that have a recovery that is not immediately obvious. To even talk about these things on the ground or here on this forum and make those decisions here has merit.
A while ago the discussion about stick failure came up, because it's happened that a control stick has failed in flight. I suggested that in a side-by-side RV one could reach over and fly with the other stick, and i've even tried it. I haven't tried landing that way, but i'm fairly confident I could get it on the groud with a minimum of damage if needed. It's one reason I would avoid removing the passenger stick and stowing it somewhere... You never know when you'll need it.

The same could be done in a tandem RV, perhaps... Reaching around behind the pilot's seat to grab the passenger stick. If not enough to fly a safe landing, perhaps enough to fly to a safe bail-out altitude?
__________________
Rob Prior
1996 RV-6 "Tweety" C-FRBP (formerly N196RV)
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-04-2022, 08:34 AM
rmarshall234 rmarshall234 is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 349
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Minnis View Post
As for hitting the tail, remember...... when you bail you are going the same speed as the airplane. At least for a second or two.
I don't know about "for a second or two".

As soon as one "presents" their body to the relative wind they will begin to decelerate relative to the airplane. More surface area presented, more (immediate) deceleration.

Avoid the tail. That is my professional advice. It should be part of your emergency egress procedures..."How do I best leave the aircraft so I can avoid the tail". Also, rolling inverted and pushing so one can "pop out" is a fallacy in my professional opinion and instead, a great opportunity to hit the tail.

Wearing a helmet is a great idea if one can rationalize the use of it and if flying hard aerobatics, an absolute must.

Be safe out there.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-04-2022, 09:57 AM
jrs14855 jrs14855 is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lake Havasu City AZ
Posts: 2,770
Default Never Give Up

The most amazing control failure story was Bob Hoover in the F86 with experimental "fly by wire" horizontal tail. Takeoff from Los Angeles Intl, airplane pitched to vertical on takeoff, no pitch control. He got the airplane under control
and headed for Edwards. Enroute he lost control again and recovered. He said the landing at Edwards was so perfect he didn't know exactly when the wheels touched the ground.
When the airplane pitched up the people on a company frequency were screaming at him to bail out. When they checked the ejection seat at Edwards it was inoperative.
The wires for the horizontal tail were routed thru a wheel well and when the gear retracted it damaged the wires.
All this is documented in a Sport Aviation article from that era.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-04-2022, 10:04 AM
jrs14855 jrs14855 is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lake Havasu City AZ
Posts: 2,770
Default Control failure

There are two known cases of elevator control failure In Cassutt Racers. One was Tom Cassutt. Bolt came out of the elevator pushrod on a cross country. he landed the airplane by shifting his weight in the cockpit. No trim installed. No damage to airplane.
The second incident was the subject of an article in Kitplanes. Failed weld in stick/torque tube assembly. This happened somewhere in the Midddle East where a F1 race was taking place. i don't think it was during a race. The airplane is the one from Salt Lake area that Paul Dye flew for a Kitplanes article. Paul was not the pilot for the control failure. No damage to airplane.
NEVER GIVE UP.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 01-04-2022, 10:25 AM
rsultzbach rsultzbach is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 26
Default Jumping out of a plane in flight

Hi,

I don't think anyone really wants to jump out of an airplane in flight unless the situation is truly demanding that option in the pilot's opinion. Speaking of opinions, I take declarations like I guarantee or there is no way as just one overexuberant person's opinion. Why? Because no one has done a test program to see what really happens when someone jumps out of an emergency RV aircraft. Until this is studied, I know, when pigs fly or something to that effect, everyone is spouting opinion, PERIOD! Von Alexander did prove you can get out of an RV-8 cockpit in flight. Unfortunately, he did not have a parachute on.

Now as for a few pointers about bailing out of an emergency aircraft, one thing is you need to bailout of the right side of the cockpit in American powered setups. Why? Because the prop wash spirals around the aircraft like a corkscrew and bailing out the right side is using that corkscrewing force to your advantage. There is an exception if you are trapped in an unrecoverable spin. Whenever you bail out of a spin you want to egress to the outside of the spin. Why? If you bail to the inside of a spin you will be very near the spin axis which translates into the spinning aircraft will be spinning around you virtually in orbit of you. That makes it a mess when your parachute canopy opens should it get caught on the spinning aircraft.

If you want to bail from inside your seated position try disconnecting your comm cords, opening the canopy, running full nose down trim and rolling inverted before you release your seatbelts.

All these techniques were taught by the US Navy flight program during the last days of prop aircraft in the Navy. I know the prop wash corkscrew effect off a 180 hp Lycoming is not going to compete with its big brother off a huge 3 bladed prop swung by a 1400-1500 horse Wright or Pratt and Whitney but I would rather have every edge in my favor if ever I needed to bail.

If you do believe in the feasibility of bailing out of an RV, plan out what you will do if ever that unfortunate day ever comes. Chair fly it in your mind and practice going through the motions multiple times and frequently to keep it fresh in your mind. You are only going to get one shot to do this right and forethought and practice will help you succeed.

Good luck to all and may you never have to execute a bailout strategy.

Bob

Last edited by rsultzbach : 01-04-2022 at 10:34 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-04-2022, 11:05 AM
agent4573 agent4573 is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Mountain view
Posts: 490
Default

I think Bob is the only one that mentioned running the trim forward, and I think that would be my technique. I put the quick pull pins in my canopy and in my mind, I would pull the pins, run the trim forward, release the canopy and bail. I've seen enough pitch doublets in flight test to know that a momentary hit of the stick normally brings the plane back the other way about 1 second later without any further inputs. Running the trim forward seems to be the best way to get constant pitch down, and then it doesn't really matter if you're upright or inverted.
__________________
www.rv7build.com
N69ER - reserved
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 01-04-2022, 11:12 AM
PatMac PatMac is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Louisville
Posts: 55
Default

<<leaving the airplane>>

I bought three parachute jumps many moons ago so that I could get a real-life feel for exiting a plane. 2000+ jumps later, I highly recommend making at least one jump to become familiar with this process.

When things go bad, all plans go to ****. It comes down to training.

my 2 cts.
PD
__________________
PlaneDork
KLOU-RV14A N721PK
Dues Proudly Paid
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:56 PM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.